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Whats a fair contract for captain Koivu?

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Old
01-30-2006, 10:18 AM
  #76
Matrix
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As far as Koivu is concerned, we should keep him period. But he's not a #1 center in the league, wouldn't be one in most of the teams. So he's either #1 center in an average team like we are or #2 center on a great team. Either we stick with him without trading or acquiring an #1 center or we trade for #1 and keep him as #2.

But you must pay him accordingly to the role he's playing. You can't do anything to bring anybody else on board, well just too bad, he's then your #1 pay him accordingly. You find a way to find that special #1 center, then you still keep Saks, in a better role for him as a #2, and pay him accordingly to this #2 status.

But find a way to keep him since he's of the few that gives everything he has day in, day out, the vast majority of the time, which is by far more than a lot of players combined together......

Go Saks!

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01-30-2006, 10:30 AM
  #77
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IMO Koivu is very good and everyone here knows that and when people say that he never made us win they don't mean that it is his fault but it's the fact that we will never win with him as our best player. The fact is that if you give Koivu a 4-4.5m contract, you wont have any money to make the necessary changes in this team since theo and Kovy are undratable and do you really want to keep Koivu to have the same kind of team as this year? Yes, by loosing him, it could be worst, or it could be better, but i really don't want to have an other year with this same team... The only way we will give him the contract he wants is by making a big trade or if theo become the goalie that gainey signed at 5,5m a year.

I see this as if Koivu is in the same situation of coach in a loosing team, he's not the guy that isn't doing is job, but you need a major change and he's the easiest one to change and that's really sad.

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01-30-2006, 10:47 AM
  #78
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I think Matrix makes a good point. If Montreal choses to go after a premium #1 centre, and want to keep Saku around, then it deflates his value. If Saku is to be our #1 centre for the next few years then he has to get a contract similar to what he's making now. My initial thought was 3 years and $3.5 million per. To all the ney sayers, ask yourself this: "Who can we get that is better, and for what cost?"

Saku is not the reason for our troubles this year. IMO it's better to retain him as our #1 guy, let Plekanec be #2, and spend money on improving the defence. Don't break the bank on areas that we're relatively strong.

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01-30-2006, 10:58 AM
  #79
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Koivu isn't indispensable but he's one of the few quality players on the Habs. IMO there are at least a dozen other players on the present roster who wouldn't even be considered for a place on a championship team. To become a championship team, the Habs would have to replace them. The replacement would start in goal and move out to the defense, where all but Markov should lose their jobs or be demoted to #5, 6, or 7.

At the very least, the 1st line needs a new LW, and the 2nd line a center and a LW who can score. Maybe Plekanec can become that center. Sundstrom will be gone after this season if not sooner, and Higgins can seamlessly take over. Chipchura can replace Bonk. Bulis doesn't seem to want to stay, and maybe it's best to trade him before he becomes a UFA. It would be nice if Murray, Ivavnans, and Downey could score occasionally, but I'm afraid they can't.

Talk about Kostitsyn, Perezhogin, and Latendresse as 1st or 2nd line players on a championship team is just that, talk. They haven't come close to proving themselves. They're not Gagne or Patrice Bergeron or Ovechkin or Kovalchuk or Malkin.

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01-30-2006, 10:58 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
Don't compare Ribeiro to Koivu. This season, Ribeiro is like a stone tied around the Habs' neck as they try to swim. It's not just points scored but keeping the opponents from scoring against you. Right now, the difference between Koivu and Ribeiro in +/- ratings is 19! Koivu is +5, Ribeiro -14.
It's you in your previous post that bring Ribeiro , and you ask me to not compare them ?

+- stats change a lot from a season to another .Last season , Koivu was having -5 and Ribeiro +14 ; the difference was also 19 but in favor of Ribs .

Anyway , we all know that Ribeiro is having a bad season with or without this meanless stat . We all know that Gainey is probably going to move him . I have nothing againts that , and i am sure that Ribeiro is going to have a better life elsewhere , without the medias pressure of Montreal .

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01-30-2006, 11:06 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by mark0v
It's you in your previous post that bring Ribeiro , and you ask me to not compare them ?

+- stats change a lot from a season to another .Last season , Koivu was having -5 and Ribeiro +14 ; the difference was also 19 but in favor of Ribs .

Anyway , we all know that Ribeiro is having a bad season with or without this meanless stat . We all know that Gainey is probably going to move him . I have nothing againts that , and i am sure that Ribeiro is going to have a better life elsewhere , without the medias pressure of Montreal .
OK, let's declare a truce. You've said the same things over and over about Koivu and I've said the same things over and over about Ribeiro. Nothing has changed. Koivu limps along at his point a game pace when he isn't injured and Ribeiro gets an occasional power play point. There's nothing either of us can add to the discussion that we haven't already said.

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01-30-2006, 11:08 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppil
IMO Koivu is very good and everyone here knows that and when people say that he never made us win they don't mean that it is his fault but it's the fact that we will never win with him as our best player. The fact is that if you give Koivu a 4-4.5m contract, you wont have any money to make the necessary changes in this team since theo and Kovy are undratable and do you really want to keep Koivu to have the same kind of team as this year? Yes, by loosing him, it could be worst, or it could be better, but i really don't want to have an other year with this same team... The only way we will give him the contract he wants is by making a big trade or if theo become the goalie that gainey signed at 5,5m a year.

I see this as if Koivu is in the same situation of coach in a loosing team, he's not the guy that isn't doing is job, but you need a major change and he's the easiest one to change and that's really sad.

Ahhhhhh someone who understand and don't have the blinders !!!!

Good post

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01-30-2006, 11:10 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by BLNY
I think Matrix makes a good point. If Montreal choses to go after a premium #1 centre, and want to keep Saku around, then it deflates his value. If Saku is to be our #1 centre for the next few years then he has to get a contract similar to what he's making now. My initial thought was 3 years and $3.5 million per. To all the ney sayers, ask yourself this: "Who can we get that is better, and for what cost?"

Saku is not the reason for our troubles this year. IMO it's better to retain him as our #1 guy, let Plekanec be #2, and spend money on improving the defence. Don't break the bank on areas that we're relatively strong.
I don't agree ; To have Koivu and Plekanec , who are both playing the same kind of game , is by far too risquy. With the kind of game they play , with their size , they are high risk for getting injuries .

You said that Saku isn't part of the troubles this year ; may be not Koivu himself , but his injury , yes ! . We have the same team that we had at the start of the season , but now we are loosing most of our game . That show that we have a confidence problem , it's the mental part of the game that make us loose games.

And when did we start to loose our confidence ? when the players have to played a bigger role than the one they are suite for.

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01-30-2006, 11:12 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppil
IMO Koivu is very good and everyone here knows that and when people say that he never made us win they don't mean that it is his fault but it's the fact that we will never win with him as our best player. The fact is that if you give Koivu a 4-4.5m contract, you wont have any money to make the necessary changes in this team since theo and Kovy are undratable and do you really want to keep Koivu to have the same kind of team as this year? Yes, by loosing him, it could be worst, or it could be better, but i really don't want to have an other year with this same team... The only way we will give him the contract he wants is by making a big trade or if theo become the goalie that gainey signed at 5,5m a year.

I see this as if Koivu is in the same situation of coach in a loosing team, he's not the guy that isn't doing is job, but you need a major change and he's the easiest one to change and that's really sad.

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01-30-2006, 11:12 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienFan11
Reading the way some of you have been talking about Koivu, I'm ashamed to be a Habs fan. If we get Koivu back for 4-4.5M a year, we'll be lucky. There will be a team out there who would gladly give Koivu 4.75.
Then we should let that team sign him for 4.75

For 5m , i can think of many better investments than Saku Koivu.I like Saks but at some point we need to be realist and look at the overall situation.

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01-30-2006, 11:16 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
OK, let's declare a truce. You've said the same things over and over about Koivu and I've said the same things over and over about Ribeiro. Nothing has changed. Koivu limps along at his point a game pace when he isn't injured and Ribeiro gets an occasional power play point. There's nothing either of us can add to the discussion that we haven't already said.
i agree , even if the word ''occasional ''sounds a little bit under his production .But it's okay !

We did it ! we agree on something ! what a great day !


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01-30-2006, 11:50 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Nash13
Don't be an ignorant, high horsed type poster.....

You basically state Koivu needs a fire lit under his *** which is the furthest thing from reality. Koivu knows it, his agent knows it, fans know it, and so does Gainey. Gainey using that as a negotiating tactic would fail miserable and only cause more problems.
Wow man, I didn't know you were so sensitive...

Koivu has shown up once in the last road swing...

I like the guy, he's a very good player...but even he can get discouraged and play under his abilities from time to time.

Just don't spaz out if you can't handle what people say on these boards...

k

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01-30-2006, 12:04 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by mark0v
i agree , even if the word ''occasional ''sounds a little bit under his production .But it's okay !

We did it ! we agree on something ! what a great day !

I'm so proud of you guys.

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01-30-2006, 01:17 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
Koivu isn't indispensable but he's one of the few quality players on the Habs. IMO there are at least a dozen other players on the present roster who wouldn't even be considered for a place on a championship team. To become a championship team, the Habs would have to replace them. The replacement would start in goal and move out to the defense, where all but Markov should lose their jobs or be demoted to #5, 6, or 7.

At the very least, the 1st line needs a new LW, and the 2nd line a center and a LW who can score. Maybe Plekanec can become that center. Sundstrom will be gone after this season if not sooner, and Higgins can seamlessly take over. Chipchura can replace Bonk. Bulis doesn't seem to want to stay, and maybe it's best to trade him before he becomes a UFA. It would be nice if Murray, Ivavnans, and Downey could score occasionally, but I'm afraid they can't.

Talk about Kostitsyn, Perezhogin, and Latendresse as 1st or 2nd line players on a championship team is just that, talk. They haven't come close to proving themselves. They're not Gagne or Patrice Bergeron or Ovechkin or Kovalchuk or Malkin.
Why would you say Bulis doesn't want to stay? All I've heard from him are things that indicate a desire to stay. Sure he hasn't come out and said it straight up, but he has talked about liking Montreal, liking the direction of the team, and at the start of the year I even read an article with quotes from him about how he thought the team wanted him to take on more of a leadership role, and that he was going to work towards it.

One thing that bothers me is the argument that Koivu isn't an ideal first liner, and that he shouldn't be paid like one. While it may be true that he's not an ideal first line center, the thing you have to remember is that he isn't being paid like one. The going rate for a viable first line center is in the 5-6 million dollar range. Koivu is making like 3.5. If you want to break it down in a games played sort of way (which I think is silly, Koivu can't be evaluated on sheer numbers alone) you're looking at 5 million a year for 80 games from a top line center. Now Koivu plays 60ish games a year, which is 3/4 that, so if you want to pay him 3/4 as much, 0.75*5 = 3.75 million a year, slightly more than he makes with us. People saying he's worth 2-2.5 million are waaaay off-base. You'll never replace what koivu brings for that much money. He's easily worth 3.5 a year to me, and I'll be happy with anything 4 million a year or under.

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01-30-2006, 03:20 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeaky
Why would you say Bulis doesn't want to stay? All I've heard from him are things that indicate a desire to stay. Sure he hasn't come out and said it straight up, but he has talked about liking Montreal, liking the direction of the team, and at the start of the year I even read an article with quotes from him about how he thought the team wanted him to take on more of a leadership role, and that he was going to work towards it.

One thing that bothers me is the argument that Koivu isn't an ideal first liner, and that he shouldn't be paid like one. While it may be true that he's not an ideal first line center, the thing you have to remember is that he isn't being paid like one. The going rate for a viable first line center is in the 5-6 million dollar range. Koivu is making like 3.5. If you want to break it down in a games played sort of way (which I think is silly, Koivu can't be evaluated on sheer numbers alone) you're looking at 5 million a year for 80 games from a top line center. Now Koivu plays 60ish games a year, which is 3/4 that, so if you want to pay him 3/4 as much, 0.75*5 = 3.75 million a year, slightly more than he makes with us. People saying he's worth 2-2.5 million are waaaay off-base. You'll never replace what koivu brings for that much money. He's easily worth 3.5 a year to me, and I'll be happy with anything 4 million a year or under.
I would like Bulis to stay.The scuttlebutt is that Bulis is unhappy with the high taxes he has to pay while playing in Montréal.

I think Gainey will sign Koivu to a new contract. The Habs can afford to keep him because I don't think they will be able to get a so-called first line center that easily. Where would he come from? Weight has gone to Carolina. Marleau will probably stay in San Jose. It's unlikely the Habs will get Lecavalier or Richards from the Lightning. So all the grumbling about Koivu's salary on this forum is moot. Let Gainey, Boivin, and Gillett decide. It's not our money.

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01-30-2006, 05:14 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
I would like Bulis to stay.The scuttlebutt is that Bulis is unhappy with the high taxes he has to pay while playing in Montréal.

I think Gainey will sign Koivu to a new contract. The Habs can afford to keep him because I don't think they will be able to get a so-called first line center that easily. Where would he come from? Weight has gone to Carolina. Marleau will probably stay in San Jose. It's unlikely the Habs will get Lecavalier or Richards from the Lightning. So all the grumbling about Koivu's salary on this forum is moot. Let Gainey, Boivin, and Gillett decide. It's not our money.
I would rather have Koivu then Lecavalier.. haven't seen a playere more overrated then him.

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01-30-2006, 05:27 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
I would rather have Koivu then Lecavalier.. haven't seen a playere more overrated then him.
There are posters on this forum who would be thrilled at that exchange. Lecavalier probably is somewhat overrated (he's no Sakic, Yzerman, or Forsberg, for instance) but he is a real first line center, he can put up decent numbers, he's big, and he would have his name going for him in Montréal. Also, he's younger than Koivu and doesn't have a long medical history. Of course, when it comes to the intangibles, such as fire in the belly, Koivu has an edge.

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01-30-2006, 05:28 PM
  #93
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Give Koivu the whole cap and let him distribute it as he sees fit
Koivu giveth and Koivu taketh away

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01-30-2006, 07:45 PM
  #94
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everyone wants to talk about koivu's injury history...

ok fine no denying he gets injured the way he plays....but BUT

when you're the only one playing with any emotion out there and you're trying to score forecheck hit opponents and take the hits you're gonna get injured...

if koivu was surrounded by players who bring the same level of emotion and who hit opponents mroe often than koivu would not be hitting as much reducing his chances of getting injured...

also look at gretzky he's probably the first to tell u he was weak but was never really injured...why??
cause he had players around him that would protect him and would put the fear of good into those that would try to touch him so he wouldnt get all thee players going after him

if we had one or two players like that (yes ratis and downey are hitters and although ratis can be intimidating hasent done it yet and downey i dont think can be intimidating) than people would go after koivu less often....meaning less injuries

also if he has to go out there and do everything and play at 130% for 20+ mins he'd be alot fresher and rested after every shift meaning he'd be stronger and wouldnt get injured as often...

i'm not saying that he's forsberg or gretz....BUT he's a great captain and is a great player....we cant afford to lose him...he diserves to end his career a hab...

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01-30-2006, 10:31 PM
  #95
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I say trade him for a premium center prospect, add a first or a prospect i don't car, we need a Carter or Pouliot type player in the system

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01-30-2006, 10:32 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klaudius
Wow man, I didn't know you were so sensitive...

Koivu has shown up once in the last road swing...

I like the guy, he's a very good player...but even he can get discouraged and play under his abilities from time to time.

Just don't spaz out if you can't handle what people say on these boards...

k
It went right over your head didn't it. WOOOOOSH. I said to you basically what you said to every poster here who supports Koivu, then you went on to make up crap saying Koivu needs a fire lit under him. I don't care if you criticize Koivu, just make it at least remotely true.

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01-31-2006, 06:59 AM
  #97
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markov's point regarding ppg and being available for enough games is a good one in terms of what's best for the team. Today's Tuesday and the player stats are in the papers and I looked for players at a similar or lower ppg, but higher total.

Vinny L. and Arnott are 2 that I noticed. Arnott is at a point per game or slightly lower. If he and Saku were swapped would the team be more successful ?
Even with the 10 more games he would have played, I'm not convinced.

My thinking is that if you can sign him, you may be able to go after a similar priced player to build up the lineup, but then have to sacrifice players like Bullis and Zednik, in favor of lower priced 2nd year players. I believe Jokinen is going to be unrestricted and have no idea what Florida's plans are. Koivu's presence can only help if the $ can be freed up for him. Players who want to sign with good teams won't be attracted by Mtl. if the roster is stripped to afford them.

Then again if he feels he should be at 4.5 M , there probably isn't much choice.

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01-31-2006, 10:24 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingbobert
everyone wants to talk about koivu's injury history...

ok fine no denying he gets injured the way he plays....but BUT

when you're the only one playing with any emotion out there and you're trying to score forecheck hit opponents and take the hits you're gonna get injured...

if koivu was surrounded by players who bring the same level of emotion and who hit opponents mroe often than koivu would not be hitting as much reducing his chances of getting injured...
.
For years we hear that Koivu doesn't have skills players to complete his play , that doesn't have hard workers to get the puck , and now that doesn't have players that played with emotion and that hit ....

Sorry but i don't buy all those needs .You're overevaluating the emotion and the work of Saku , and undersize the value of his linemate .

We also have plenty of players that can hit , battle for the puck or make the big hit . Plekanec,Higgins, Komisarek,Murray , Begin ,Ivanhan , Bullis ,the new player(!), are all players that play with emotion . You can had Zednik when he's on his game , Ryder and also Perezhogin .

Anyway , i think that most of the injuries that Saku got in the past , were cause by himself . Bad move , turn with too much speed , bad ice etc.

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01-31-2006, 11:56 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
I would like Bulis to stay.The scuttlebutt is that Bulis is unhappy with the high taxes he has to pay while playing in Montréal.

I think Gainey will sign Koivu to a new contract. The Habs can afford to keep him because I don't think they will be able to get a so-called first line center that easily. Where would he come from? Weight has gone to Carolina. Marleau will probably stay in San Jose. It's unlikely the Habs will get Lecavalier or Richards from the Lightning. So all the grumbling about Koivu's salary on this forum is moot. Let Gainey, Boivin, and Gillett decide. It's not our money.
i agree, its not our money. if there wasnt a cap, i would say sign Koivu to 5 million a year! i want the best players on my team no matter the cost and having Saku on it makes us better. the problem is there IS a cap so overpaying Koivu will hurt my team so ill have none of that. First and foremost, the Canadiens need to improve while staying under that cap. the Truth is Koivu doesnt deserve more than 3 mil a year. will he get more from another team? yes, he will. should the Habs match? hell no! We need to go get the best players available and stay under the cap, plain as that.

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