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Goalies that didn't win the Vezina that should have?

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01-30-2017, 09:12 AM
  #1
RedWings51930
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Goalies that didn't win the Vezina that should have?

Who would you say was robbed of a Vezina win or was more deserving of one?
I'll name a few I can think of:

Curtis Joseph 1992-93 (3rd in voting, didn't win likely because of Belfour's better record and higher number of shutouts)
John Vanbiesbrouck 1993-94 (should've been much closer with Hasek in voting, IMO, and he played really well on a 1st year expansion team)
Dominik Hasek 1995-96 (Carey wasn't actually stellar, and Hasek probably got hosed for having a high GAA, few shutouts, and a sub-.500 record)
Roberto Luongo 2003-04 (not that Brodeur didn't earn it, Luongo deserved it more)
Semyon Varlamov 2013-14 (Rask made Bs better, Varlamov made the Avs a playoff team)

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01-30-2017, 09:29 AM
  #2
tony d
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Luongo in 2006-2007 probably should have won it over Brodeur.

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01-30-2017, 12:08 PM
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Admiral Awesome
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Luongo in '04 sprang to mind immediately. Dude got robbed.

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Old
01-30-2017, 12:50 PM
  #4
quoipourquoi
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1992-93 - Curtis Joseph
1995-96 - Daren Puppa
2000-01 - Roman Cechmanek
2002-03 - Marty Turco

There are others, but those four are kinda sticking out.

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01-30-2017, 01:37 PM
  #5
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Gary Smith 74-75

Pete peeters 90-91

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01-30-2017, 02:01 PM
  #6
ChrisK97
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Mike Liut 1980-81 (That was the last year the Vezina was still basically treated like the Jennings Trophy)

Grant Fuhr 1995-96

Ed Belfour 2003-04

Darren Puppa 1989-90 (Did more with less compared to the defensive roster Roy had in Montreal)

Kirk McLean 1991-92

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01-30-2017, 02:06 PM
  #7
Doctor No
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK97 View Post
Kirk McLean 1991-92
I'm a huge Kirk McLean fan, but what's the case here?

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01-30-2017, 02:07 PM
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Doctor No
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK97 View Post
Mike Liut 1980-81 (That was the last year the Vezina was still basically treated like the Jennings Trophy)
No, it *was* awarded as per how the Jennings Trophy is awarded today.

So I'm not sure how there's an argument that can be made here.

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01-30-2017, 02:09 PM
  #9
Feed Me A Stray Cat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Luongo in 2006-2007 probably should have won it over Brodeur.
03-04 he should have.

But 06-07 was arguably Brodeur's best season of his career. 78gp, 2.18gaa, .922 sv % behind a less than stellar defense. Luongo was at 76gp, 2.28gaa, .921 sv%. I mean, flip of a coin really, but also remember that New Jersey's shot counter historically undercounted shots, which lowered Marty's save percentage relative to other goalies.

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01-30-2017, 03:35 PM
  #10
GuineaPig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
03-04 he should have.

But 06-07 was arguably Brodeur's best season of his career. 78gp, 2.18gaa, .922 sv % behind a less than stellar defense. Luongo was at 76gp, 2.28gaa, .921 sv%. I mean, flip of a coin really, but also remember that New Jersey's shot counter historically undercounted shots, which lowered Marty's save percentage relative to other goalies.
This is true, but Luongo also faced a lot more shots on the PK. Luongo had higher save percentages than Brodeur in all game situations, but because Vancouver had 61%(!!!) more powerplays against than the Devils Luongo's overall save percentage was lower.

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01-30-2017, 06:25 PM
  #11
ChrisK97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
I'm a huge Kirk McLean fan, but what's the case here?
Other than GAA, McLean's stats in other areas were comparable to Roy (.901 save percentage to .914, back when a .900 save percentage was a big deal. Also close in wins, and he did it with a less celebrated defensive corps in front of him.

Roy had the great stats, but Montreal's defensive corps was a lot better than Vancouver's defensive corps.

And he played a HUGE role in Vancouver's big-time turnaround from 1991.

I thought McLean and what he did given the defensive roster Vancouver iced (Even without an impact player, VAN was #5 in fewest goals allowed, I think it was a lot tougher than Roy doing what he did with a MUCH suprior defensive roster. And of course, Pat Burns' defensive structure/mindset/philosophy.

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01-30-2017, 06:57 PM
  #12
blueandgoldguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK97 View Post
Other than GAA, McLean's stats in other areas were comparable to Roy (.901 save percentage to .914, back when a .900 save percentage was a big deal. Also close in wins, and he did it with a less celebrated defensive corps in front of him.

Roy had the great stats, but Montreal's defensive corps was a lot better than Vancouver's defensive corps.

And he played a HUGE role in Vancouver's big-time turnaround from 1991.

I thought McLean and what he did given the defensive roster Vancouver iced (Even without an impact player, VAN was #5 in fewest goals allowed, I think it was a lot tougher than Roy doing what he did with a MUCH suprior defensive roster. And of course, Pat Burns' defensive structure/mindset/philosophy.
Save percentage is not really dependent on the quality of the defense in front of a goalie (See Luongo in his first Florida stint vs. his stint with Vancouver). Roy deservedly won the Vezina that season.

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01-30-2017, 07:28 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Save percentage is not really dependent on the quality of the defense in front of a goalie
Not really but kinda sorta. Let's be real here.

I know there is some evidence that busier goalies have a little boast in save percentage but defense absolutely matters too.

Limiting quality chances and clearing second chances are kind of a big deal.

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Old
01-30-2017, 08:06 PM
  #14
vadim sharifijanov
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that was a pretty decent defense: diduck was a beast, babych had transitioned into a very deoendable defensive guy, lumme and lidster were fine, and yes dirk and murzyn were giant pylons but what do you expect from an early 90s smythe division bottom pair?

meanwhile, roy had probably the second best regular season of his GOAT career.

also, in '92 desjardins was in his first full season (of 65+ games), lefebvre was in his third, odelein in his first, svoboda was fine but his replacement kevin haller was a rookie and pylon, daigneault was fine as he ever would be, schneider was a tire fire. still a better group than the canucks but "celebrated" is really stretching it. that top six had nine seasons of 65+ game seasons under their collective belt, and seven of them belonged to daigneault and svoboda.

that said, mclean had a great year. could have won at half of the vezinas of the 80s, and either washington goalie's in the 90s. but definitely not '92.

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01-30-2017, 08:19 PM
  #15
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Luongo in 2006-2007 & 2003-2004, Turco in 2002-2003, Nabokov in 2007-2008

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01-30-2017, 08:22 PM
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Osgood over Carey in 95/96.

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01-30-2017, 09:26 PM
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Evgeni Nabokov in 2007-08.

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01-30-2017, 09:33 PM
  #18
Deathstroke
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Brodeur had a very strong case in 96-97.

I have a feeling Luongo will be mentioned for 06-07. Turco had a legit case in 2003.

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01-30-2017, 09:38 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Luongo in 2006-2007 probably should have won it over Brodeur.
Why probably?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Awesome View Post
Luongo in '04 sprang to mind immediately. Dude got robbed.
I'm not seeing it. If you're looking at only SV%, you're not doing it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
This is true, but Luongo also faced a lot more shots on the PK. Luongo had higher save percentages than Brodeur in all game situations, but because Vancouver had 61%(!!!) more powerplays against than the Devils Luongo's overall save percentage was lower.
Both had a very strong case in 2007. But Brodeur did still deserve it every bit as much as Luongo. It's closest Vezina race I can remember, and for good reason.

The fact that the Devils that year didn't take as many penalties as the Canucks should not be used against Brodeur.

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Old
01-30-2017, 09:49 PM
  #20
Deathstroke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Save percentage is not really dependent on the quality of the defense in front of a goalie (See Luongo in his first Florida stint vs. his stint with Vancouver). Roy deservedly won the Vezina that season.
Every single goalie since 1983 I've tested and done the data on, has a higher cumulative SV% in their "30 or more shot" games than they do in their "29 or fewer shot" COMPLETE games. I have yet to find a goalie where the opposite is true.

Jonathan Quick and Martin Brodeur both have had their SV% deflated from having a great shot suppressing defense in front of them. Most goalies I've tested face 30 or more shots in about 40-45% of their career overall games. But Brodeur and Quick only faced 30 or more shots in less than 30% of their games.

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01-30-2017, 09:56 PM
  #21
VanIslander
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The best goalies to never win the Vezina trophy are:

1. Vladislav Tretiak
2. Georges Vézina
3.. Clint Benedict
4. Jiří Holeček
5. Hugh Lehman

Had to be said.

The assumption of this thread is that the best goaltenders of all time have won the trophy. The very best goaltenders to never win it did so for very different reasons than those assumed in the op.

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01-31-2017, 01:13 AM
  #22
ChrisK97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathstroke View Post
Brodeur had a very strong case in 96-97.
That one surprised me. He basically out-statisticed Hasek in every area but save percentage.

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01-31-2017, 01:41 AM
  #23
RedWings51930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK97 View Post
That one surprised me. He basically out-statisticed Hasek in every area but save percentage.
The problem is that most of those stats are team-based. (Which is odd considering that they have no problems judging goalies on team stats in other years)

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01-31-2017, 03:13 PM
  #24
Deathstroke
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Originally Posted by RedWings51930 View Post
The problem is that most of those stats are team-based. (Which is odd considering that they have no problems judging goalies on team stats in other years)
SV% is also very team effected even if it's not team based.

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01-31-2017, 03:29 PM
  #25
Merya
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Originally Posted by ChrisK97 View Post
.901 save percentage to .914
This is a huge gap tho. Think nowadays .920 vs .933. It's a decisive difference.

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