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Aftermath: The Dion Phaneuf trade to Ottawa

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Old
02-04-2017, 08:17 PM
  #26
kalessin
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Given Ottawa is a budget team, it's pretty amazing they were willing to take on Dion's salary. On the ice, they win the trade, but I don't see how it's not going to hamper them.

Then you have Bobby Ryan. Ayy

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02-04-2017, 08:18 PM
  #27
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Only thing I really don't get here is playing Michalek and Greening (and Laich) in the minors but COW guys like Griffith and Smith...

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02-04-2017, 08:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by LeafFever View Post
Fine, but he's still a 7 million cap hit in a more reduced role.
Obviously, having Phaneuf makes no sense for Toronto in a rebuild.
Ottawa doesn't spend to the cap. Cap hits are irrelevant to us. Only actual salary matters, and Phanuef's is quite palatable, especially when you consider the salary that Toronto took on.

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02-04-2017, 08:25 PM
  #29
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Don't think it was a horrible trade for Ottawa. But I don't think it makes sense long-term if they want to manage their cap well to build a contender versus some middling team. On the flip side, they would have had a hard time attracting an analogous player like Phaneuf in UFA without overpaying. The only problem is they have 2 huge contracts on their cap- Bobby Ryan, Phaneuf, as a small market team with an internal cap. It depends on your expectations as a fan at the end of the day...they are in the playoffs today and have a couple games on hand on a few teams, like the Leafs but I don't believe in the philosophy of taking on Phaneuf for them- big picture. I do emphasize with them being a small market team.

On the Leafs end, the Phaneuf contract was just plain bad. He was overpaid for what he brought but the length of his deal was also way too long. I wasn't a fan of Phaneuf towards the tail end of his time here for a variety of reasons. He's not a good skater- the game was getting too fast for him and he very rarely played the man to regain possession, especially in his own zone. I'm not a fan of lazy defense-man and it didn't help that he would take long shifts. He was good on the powerplay and had a decent offensive game. If he was paid more accordingly, he could be considered a good top 4 (say around 4.5m AAV).

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02-04-2017, 08:25 PM
  #30
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There was zero market for Dion though. Pretty much all of the value to the Leafs was just getting that contract off the books. Both teams won. It's the kind of trade that you hope everyone turns out like, both sides getting what they wanted.
There was market for Phaneuf if the Leafs retained. And the deal was essentially a significant retention in actual salary but not cap space for the Leafs.

Dion's cap hit is $7 million per year but Ottawa ends up only paying him about $5.25 million per over the deal because they dumped all their bad contacts on the Leafs.

The Sens got about $8 million in straight cash savings and Phaneuf.

Leafs got out of $7 million per cap space long term, a 2nd round pick and decent prospect Tobias Lindberg.

Detroit might have offered more then a second and a prospect but would have wanted Leafs retaining $2 million per or whatever longterm. Other teams might have wanted similar deals. Only the Sens would take him without retention because they dumped all of their bad contracts with 2 years left on the Leafs.

I like Phaneuf on the Sens and I think he will maintain his level of play now for basically his entire contract. He is a top 4 D in Ottawa. Karlsson plays 27 minutes and Ceci, Methot and Phaneuf play 21/22 minutes. Can play either pairing versus any top line in the NHL. Ottawa basically has one elite #1 D and three decent #3 defenders and that allows the team to shelter and play the third pairing in a limited way if they need to.

After years of the terrible Cowen/Wiercioch or Borowiecki in the top 4 getting 20+ minutes, Sens fans and management are very happy to have Phaneuf to play the role he is. He can PK and PP and defend the crease. He is nasty to play against and makes the team far tougher. He doesn't need to be the Puck moving defenceman at ES and is easily the second best offensive D on the team regardless.

Sure his cap hit is $1-2 million too high. That is mostly irrelevant to the team now and in the future. And they are paying him a lot less then $7 million per in actual dollars.

I don't think it was a bad deal for the Leafs with the long term cap issues. But if Phaneuf was still on the Leafs the Leafs D would be much improved right now. Likely not in years to come, but it is not even debateable Phaneuf is a solid vet right now that would be making the Leafs better now and eating important minutes for them.

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02-04-2017, 08:27 PM
  #31
Jorge Garcia
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Ottawa got a much-needed tough, steady defender with leadership qualities in exchange for a bunch of guys they couldn't use. Dumping their salaries made Dion's more digestable, and they had lots of cap space. Leafs fans seem happy, so I guess it worked out for them, too.

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02-04-2017, 08:28 PM
  #32
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Phaneuf is a good #3 or #2 guy if need be but the contract as well as the length needed to go. The rebuilding leafs didn't need someone like Phaneuf (or Kessel) and they needed to be gone. Simple as that.

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Old
02-04-2017, 08:38 PM
  #33
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Both teams got what they needed

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02-04-2017, 08:50 PM
  #34
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Both teams got what they needed.

Leafs will need to sign Matthews, Marner and Nylander in 2-3 years and that may have proved difficult having Dion on the books.

Dion is deteriorating but definitely seems to be getting the job done well enough for what the Sens want him to be doing.

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02-04-2017, 08:51 PM
  #35
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Don't think it was a horrible trade for Ottawa. But I don't think it makes sense long-term if they want to manage their cap well to build a contender versus some middling team. On the flip side, they would have had a hard time attracting an analogous player like Phaneuf in UFA without overpaying. The only problem is they have 2 huge contracts on their cap- Bobby Ryan, Phaneuf, as a small market team with an internal cap. It depends on your expectations as a fan at the end of the day...they are in the playoffs today and have a couple games on hand on a few teams, like the Leafs but I don't believe in the philosophy of taking on Phaneuf for them- big picture. I do emphasize with them being a small market team.

On the Leafs end, the Phaneuf contract was just plain bad. He was overpaid for what he brought but the length of his deal was also way too long. I wasn't a fan of Phaneuf towards the tail end of his time here for a variety of reasons. He's not a good skater- the game was getting too fast for him and he very rarely played the man to regain possession, especially in his own zone. I'm not a fan of lazy defense-man and it didn't help that he would take long shifts. He was good on the powerplay and had a decent offensive game. If he was paid more accordingly, he could be considered a good top 4 (say around 4.5m AAV).
Yeah you're completely mixing up cap hit and salary.

Phaneuf's actual dollars owed considering all the money we shipped out is like 5 ish million a year for the rest of his contract. Not bad for a top 4 d-man.

Ottawa as a "budget team" has an internal limit on salary. Ottawa doesn't care whatsoever about cap hit as a result.

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Old
02-04-2017, 08:55 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by LeafFever View Post
Fine, but he's still a 7 million cap hit in a more reduced role.
Obviously, having Phaneuf makes no sense for Toronto in a rebuild.
Cap hit doesn't matter to the Sens. Sens are paying DP about $4.5m per year, which is more than fair for his current level of play.

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02-04-2017, 08:56 PM
  #37
Jyrki Lumme
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Only thing I really don't get here is playing Michalek and Greening (and Laich) in the minors but COW guys like Griffith and Smith...
Well Griffith and probably Smith are better AHL players than those 3 judging by this year, so they're proabbly better NHLers too.

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02-04-2017, 09:05 PM
  #38
trentmccleary
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At the time the trade was made, Phaneuf was owed approximately $35M for the next 5.25 years.
The deadweight contracts that Toronto took on were worth $15M over the next 1.25 years.

While the deadweight contracts are nothing to brag about, they were already a sunk cost. Phaneuf is better than all of those players put together and will only cost Ottawa $20M over 5.25 seasons in real budget space.

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02-04-2017, 09:08 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
There was market for Phaneuf if the Leafs retained. And the deal was essentially a significant retention in actual salary but not cap space for the Leafs.

Dion's cap hit is $7 million per year but Ottawa ends up only paying him about $5.25 million per over the deal because they dumped all their bad contacts on the Leafs.

The Sens got about $8 million in straight cash savings and Phaneuf.

Leafs got out of $7 million per cap space long term, a 2nd round pick and decent prospect Tobias Lindberg.

Detroit might have offered more then a second and a prospect but would have wanted Leafs retaining $2 million per or whatever longterm. Other teams might have wanted similar deals. Only the Sens would take him without retention because they dumped all of their bad contracts with 2 years left on the Leafs.

I like Phaneuf on the Sens and I think he will maintain his level of play now for basically his entire contract. He is a top 4 D in Ottawa. Karlsson plays 27 minutes and Ceci, Methot and Phaneuf play 21/22 minutes. Can play either pairing versus any top line in the NHL. Ottawa basically has one elite #1 D and three decent #3 defenders and that allows the team to shelter and play the third pairing in a limited way if they need to.

After years of the terrible Cowen/Wiercioch or Borowiecki in the top 4 getting 20+ minutes, Sens fans and management are very happy to have Phaneuf to play the role he is. He can PK and PP and defend the crease. He is nasty to play against and makes the team far tougher. He doesn't need to be the Puck moving defenceman at ES and is easily the second best offensive D on the team regardless.

Sure his cap hit is $1-2 million too high. That is mostly irrelevant to the team now and in the future. And they are paying him a lot less then $7 million per in actual dollars.

I don't think it was a bad deal for the Leafs with the long term cap issues. But if Phaneuf was still on the Leafs the Leafs D would be much improved right now. Likely not in years to come, but it is not even debateable Phaneuf is a solid vet right now that would be making the Leafs better now and eating important minutes for them.
You make a bunch of valid points. I admitted the deal worked out for the Sens....I don't disagree with really any of that. But 1)Dion probably keeps the Leafs from really bottoming out and in turn....No Matthews and 2) The cap hit matters for the Leafs. 7 Million over 7 years matters far far more to the Leafs then it does to the Sens. Not to mention that there is still a lot of years left in that Dion contract for it to go south. So it worked out for both teams. The Leafs got what they wanted and the Sens got what they wanted.

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Old
02-04-2017, 09:10 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
The two teams are in total different situations.

Sens perspective is completely different from the Leafs. Sens count real dollars, are trying to compete now and need to be competitive to help draw at the gate.

In real dollars looking at it from the start of this season moving forward:

To Ottawa
Phaneuf
5 years with 33 million remaining

To Toronto
Michalek: 4 (who might have played for them but wouldn't have brought much value to a team)
Greening: 3.2 (who was buried in the AHL)
Cowen: 4.5 (who was never going to play for them again)
Total: 11.70

Phaneuf is costing Ottawa 21.30 million for 5 years (33 - 11.70) or 4.26 per year. Veteran D who make a little over 4 per year are hardly stars. Those numbers can be played with a bit (but not much). Anyway people want to slice if Phaneuf is a 4.25 to 4.75 million real dollars players for the Sens. That's a #3/4 salary. Ottawa also isn't a hot spot for attracting players.

The trade made sense for both teams then just like it makes sense for both teams now.
how i feel. hes worth the long term hit for the short gain. Quoted from a thread Nov 2016.

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Old
02-04-2017, 09:13 PM
  #41
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Ottawa doesn't spend to the cap. Cap hits are irrelevant to us. Only actual salary matters, and Phanuef's is quite palatable, especially when you consider the salary that Toronto took on.
The Leafs only took on that salary for 18 months.

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Old
02-04-2017, 09:14 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
At the time the trade was made, Phaneuf was owed approximately $35M for the next 5.25 years.
The deadweight contracts that Toronto took on were worth $15M over the next 1.25 years.

While the deadweight contracts are nothing to brag about, they were already a sunk cost. Phaneuf is better than all of those players put together and will only cost Ottawa $20M over 5.25 seasons in real budget space.
I think all this talk about "Cap Hit Not Mattering In Ottawa" is really telling. The Sens will never win a cup with Melnyk as owner. This continue push for 8th isn't getting them anywhere. And the Fans in Ottawa agree based on attendance.
The Leafs are in a far better situation overall than the Sens.

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02-04-2017, 09:18 PM
  #43
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I think all this talk about "Cap Hit Not Mattering In Ottawa" is really telling. The Sens will never win a cup with Melnyk as owner. This continue push for 8th isn't getting them anywhere. And the Fans in Ottawa agree based on attendance.
The Leafs are in a far better situation overall than the Sens.
Agree....sens fans have accepted mediocrity.

Pathetic

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Old
02-04-2017, 09:19 PM
  #44
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Great trade by Toronto to get rid of that Albatross.

No team will anything paying DP that much money.

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Old
02-04-2017, 09:24 PM
  #45
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Agree....sens fans have accepted mediocrity.

Pathetic
We can't force our owner to spend more money.

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02-04-2017, 09:24 PM
  #46
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4.5 years left on his contract. Am I crazy or is that a little to much Dion?

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02-04-2017, 09:26 PM
  #47
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4.5 years left on his contract. Am I crazy or is that a little to much Dion?
Those last couple of years are going to be so bad. Thank god the Leafs don't have that waste of 7 million yearly in cap with the additions needed and young players to sign.

And yeah, yeah, Ottawa doesn't care about cap. That's also why they'll never win a cup with that cheap owner.

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Old
02-04-2017, 09:27 PM
  #48
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We can't force our owner to spend more money.
You can't but it hurts your chances of seeing real success. He can't afford a "Tank" to get top picks. He can't afford to spend to the cap to improve.

The Senators are completely spinning their wheels right now. And honestly, who can disagree with that? The attendance shows it. The fans don't take the Sens seriously. They do not believe Melnyk wants to do what it takes to win a cup.

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Old
02-04-2017, 09:44 PM
  #49
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Phaneuf is playing extremely well on the second-pairing.

And we gave up a bunch of bad contracts for him.

Can't complain.

The irony being that Toronto will need a veteran defenceman before long.

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02-04-2017, 09:52 PM
  #50
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Phaneuf is playing extremely well on the second-pairing.

And we gave up a bunch of bad contracts for him.

Can't complain.

The irony being that Toronto will need a veteran defenceman before long.
And Toronto has more than enough assets to get one. Dion was not that guy. Dion is just too slow and too expensive.

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