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Old
02-08-2017, 06:11 AM
  #1
PredsV82
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All Purpose PK Subban Discussion Thread

Love him?
Hate him?


Put it all here instead of clogging the Observations thread, please.

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02-08-2017, 06:22 AM
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triggrman
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I don't hate him, I just expect more. He's making $9m a year, the highest in the league for defensemen, we traded the face of the franchise to get him, I expect greatness. Right now, he's playing on par with Ekholm, Ellis and Josi are better.


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02-08-2017, 06:41 AM
  #3
Gh24
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I like Subban, so I WANT him to be the player I expected and hoped him to be. That obviously clouds my judgement a little. Subconscious ignorance to his flaws I guess.

I thought he was faster. It's a two-edged sword. I want him to be completely healthy, but on the other hand quietly hope he's still injured, so his lack of speed could be explained by that. He's a good skater tho. Those spinoramas and sharp turns seems so smooth and controlled.

He's pretty much what I expected defensively, but offensively he's left me wanting more. I hope he has another level of offensive play in him.

edit: I'm trying to say that atm I don't consider him a $9M player. I want to see him be that player, but so far he hasn't been. As a person he's great!

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Old
02-08-2017, 06:48 AM
  #4
Scoresberg
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He isn't the fastest but he's a good skater, technique-wise, overall.

In some situations I just want him to do "less" and not go for that fancy play that too often leads to a turnover. Just go for a simple pass or dump the puck.. but on the other hand, that fancy stuff is what has made him great.

Defensively sound, but still not what you want from 9M defenseman. Hope he starts to come around.

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02-08-2017, 06:49 AM
  #5
TitansVolsPreds615
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Have to think he's still injured

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02-08-2017, 07:28 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by TitansVolsPreds615 View Post
Have to think he's still injured
What makes you think that? He to me looks the same except for points output that he produced prior to the injury.

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02-08-2017, 07:34 AM
  #7
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What makes you think that? He to me looks the same except for points output that he produced prior to the injury.
I don't, to me he isn't playing nearly as well as he was before the injury. Looks still a bit tentative at times compared to then. Frankly to me he looks more like he did at the start of the season when he was still trying to figure things out.

It wouldn't shock me at all if he doesn't have one of those injuries you see sometimes where whatever it is is messed up but more play isn't going to damage it more, it's just a matter of how much the player can play through.

May be wrong, but doesn't seem the same yet. Maybe it's because he's afraid he will get hurt again more so than an actual injury, but to me he still doesn't look right.

Josi looks much the same, but he has looked out of it for most of the season so it's hard to tell which it is imo.

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Old
02-08-2017, 07:38 AM
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I don't, to me he isn't playing nearly as well as he was before the injury. Looks still a bit tentative at times compared to then. Frankly to me he looks more like he did at the start of the season when he was still trying to figure things out.

It wouldn't shock me at all if he doesn't have one of those injuries you see sometimes where whatever it is is messed up but more play isn't going to damage it more, it's just a matter of how much the player can play through.

May be wrong, but doesn't seem the same yet. Maybe it's because he's afraid he will get hurt again more so than an actual injury, but to me he still doesn't look right.

Josi looks much the same, but he has looked out of it for most of the season so it's hard to tell which it is imo.
Can I make an analogy? Are you saying PK looks like Forsberg did in the playoffs and no one really knew why he wasn't playing as well? Is that a fair comparison?

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Old
02-08-2017, 08:43 AM
  #9
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Subban looked pretty good taking a penalty right after we scored last night and let the Canucks get to within one almost costing us the game.
The guy just is not as good as people think, plain and simple.
He only got so much hype because he played in mega market of the crap habs and was big with charity and is a character off the ice. He's not a star defenseman on the ice. Period.
Causes more goals against then he causes for.

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02-08-2017, 08:56 AM
  #10
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Subban looked pretty good taking a penalty right after we scored last night and let the Canucks get to within one almost costing us the game.
The guy just is not as good as people think, plain and simple.
He only got so much hype because he played in mega market of the crap habs and was big with charity and is a character off the ice. He's not a star defenseman on the ice. Period.
Causes more goals against then he causes for.
One, the NHL writers disagree with your assessment of him not being a star defenseman by voting him a Norris trophy winner.

Two, your last statement, do you have stats to back it up or are you just spit balling here?

Three, hard to take you as unbiased opinion as a Leafs fan who has a Weber 6 avatar.

Four, so because he takes a penalty it's his fault Vancouver almost got back in to the game? One player does not dictate the outcome of a game in most situations. Other guys get called for penalties as well. Do you call them out every time a goal is scored against us when they take a penalty? I get what you're saying but come on man, that's just ticky tacky micro managing the guy's game.

Five, I bet you if we offered up Subban in a deal, we'd get some pretty good offers for him from other clubs. That should tell you of his value right there.

Six, having grown up a Habs fan, you don't get the hype as a player regardless of what you do off the ice. You still have to get it done on the ice and if he sucked so bad, why were so many Habs fans irate about the deal and stopped being fans of the team because of the trade? You think it was because of his off ice charities? Doubtful.

I said it last night in another post somewhere but the guy is supposed to be a beast come playoff time. Let's hold off all criticism of the guy before he's even finished his first season and see what he does the rest of the way out and in to the playoffs. I have noticed since he's been back his game has elevated slightly but once again, that's just me and the eye test. Does he have his faults, sure, name me one player on the Preds that doesn't?

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02-08-2017, 09:20 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
One, the NHL writers disagree with your assessment of him not being a star defenseman by voting him a Norris trophy winner.
Stop kidding. That year was a throwaway year regarding most trophies. Half a year of brilliance was awarded, not a full one. Also, don't hold people on a pedestal if they have done something in the past. Living in the now is how teams win championships.

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Four, so because he takes a penalty it's his fault Vancouver almost got back in to the game? One player does not dictate the outcome of a game in most situations. Other guys get called for penalties as well.
Taking stupid penalties is detrimental to a team. Also, he's a part of the penalty killing line so that's also another part which most probably lead to the goal. That still is on the defenders who were on the ice at the time, but taking penalties is never a good thing.

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Five, I bet you if we offered up Subban in a deal, we'd get some pretty good offers for him from other clubs. That should tell you of his value right there.
True. But his value is going to drop drastically in the future if there's no change in his point totals. He's not worth the money he's paid period.

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You still have to get it done on the ice and if he sucked so bad, why were so many Habs fans irate about the deal
When change happens, it usually isn't received happily. Habs fans hated the trade because their superstar was traded for Weber. You don't see many people who would want to trade them again. That would probably be because of hindsight is 20/20, but you got to realize that the trade was initially a wash. They had for the most part, an identical year last year. Take away the superstar status and replace it for a seemingly ''regressing'', older player the hate for the trade is there.

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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I said it last night in another post somewhere but the guy is supposed to be a beast come playoff time.
This is a complete guessing game. You can't know how he performs. There's nothing drastic right now indicating that he would be ''a beast'' come playoff time.


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Old
02-08-2017, 09:29 AM
  #12
Gh24
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Can I make an analogy? Are you saying PK looks like Forsberg did in the playoffs and no one really knew why he wasn't playing as well? Is that a fair comparison?
I can't remember if it was about PK, but I made this same comparison when the discussion was about players playing hurt. Also recall reading a story about Zetterberg, who would seem alright on the ice, but couldn't walk normally due to messed up back.

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02-08-2017, 09:31 AM
  #13
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FWIW, a lot of Habs fans would want Subban back. So, Weber has regressed, he has not been that good himself either and is only going to get worse from here on out. Subban fits our "window" better.

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02-08-2017, 09:32 AM
  #14
Gh24
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Originally Posted by JustaFinnishGuy View Post

This is a complete guessing game. You can't know how he performs. There's nothing drastic right now indicating that he would be ''a beast'' come playoff time.
Willy #2

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02-08-2017, 09:33 AM
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Willy #2
I wouldn't be opposed to that

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02-08-2017, 09:43 AM
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Gh24
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I wouldn't be opposed to that
Now to think of it...Wilson disappears for most (if not all) of the regular season. We can't have our $9M dman do that

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02-08-2017, 09:45 AM
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triggrman
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Last night's ice time has him as our number 5 defenseman at es.

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02-08-2017, 09:49 AM
  #18
Gh24
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Last night's ice time has him as our number 5 defenseman at es.
I want to believe it's because of an injury....

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02-08-2017, 09:56 AM
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Now to think of it...Wilson disappears for most (if not all) of the regular season. We can't have our $9M dman do that
Now now, 0.49 ppg isn't that bad for a 9M dman isn't it?

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02-08-2017, 10:03 AM
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triggrman
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Now now, 0.49 ppg isn't that bad for a 9M dman isn't it?
Nah, it only puts him .05 ppg behind Karlsson, who most agree is a great offensive; wait, oh, sorry that's Carlson, John Carlson, sorry. It puts him behind John Carlson, who most agree is a defenseman.....





Subban has one assist, a secondary assist in his last 12 games. But yeah, the hate on him is completely biased...

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02-08-2017, 10:12 AM
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TitansVolsPreds615
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I'm less concerned about his lack of offensive production and more about his lack of being willing to put a body on anyone. I thought he was a physical player? He was banging bodies all over in that first game against Chicago. He also turns it over far too much for my liking. I think Subban will end up better than Weber but neither of them are very good at the moment.

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02-08-2017, 10:34 AM
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PK hasn't looked right since he's come back from his injury. I hope there's nothing lingering and he gets his head together.

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02-08-2017, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by TitansVolsPreds615 View Post
I'm less concerned about his lack of offensive production and more about his lack of being willing to put a body on anyone. I thought he was a physical player? He was banging bodies all over in that first game against Chicago. He also turns it over far too much for my liking. I think Subban will end up better than Weber but neither of them are very good at the moment.
This would be a characteristic of a player who's playing with a lingering injury.

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02-08-2017, 10:56 AM
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weber's gone, i'm over him. any critique of subban from me comes from the fact that i want him to be better to make our current team better. so when i say i'm 'disappointed' in his game so far, it's because well we need him to be better.

let me be perfectly frank on what i think he has done well and where he hasn't lived up to the post trade hype from a purely hockey perspective, as unbiased as i can personally try to be;

..subban's stick work is excellent. really superior. both offensively and defensively.
..his edgework is as advertised, in that he can turn on a dime, unusual for a big man.
..he is a real danger once set up on the blueline because of these two things in making quick moves and getting a shot on net.
..he has a hard shot.
..he is pretty solid running the pp out on the point.
..he sees the ice well.
..he is a better man to man defender down low in the zone than i expected.
..he does have a physical, chippy, at times downright mean aspect to his game that disrupts oppenents.
..he looks up ice for potential stretch passes more often than any of our other defensemen
..he's apparently a good. loud but evidently likeable guy to his teammates
..he seems to truly enjoy when the team succeeds
..obviously he's a charitable guy to the community.

all those are pluses without a doubt, and don't think any of them are truly disputable.

now things i have seen that i have been disappointed in. and i have watched subban play many games before this season;

..he's the slowest skater we have right now. Injury playing a part? possibly. i hope that's it. he simply looks much slower than past years.
..his lack of speed gets him in more trouble than anything else defensively.
..he has to be extremely careful when he decides to pinch down the wall, penatrate with the puck, or try to step up at the blueline because of this slowness to accelerate.
..because of that, at least 1-2 times per game he winds up chasing a man back down ice.
..many of his penalties have come as a direct result of trailing his man (like last night).
..like several of our players (johansen,neal, others) he can be undisciplined at the very worst times late in the game.
..he gets too many shots blocked out high from the point.
..like most guys who are excellent stickhandlers he tries to do too much too often and turns the puck over. which is much worse for a dman as last man back than a forward like forsberg deeper in the offensive zone. especially slow ones.
..he simply hasn't been the penetrating, defense busting, puck carrying dman in the offensive zone most of us thought we were getting. maybe it's trying to eliminate turnovers, maybe it's injury-speed related. don't know, but he looks mighty hesitant to carry the puck in deep.
..too often he's too careless with the puck, especially noticable on the short, soft backhand passes he tends to make that get cleanly intercepted, which seems to happen once per game.
..i think he is part of the new generation of hockey players who understand 'advanced stats' and that they will play a role in contract talks. as such i think he takes shots at times to simply 'help' those numbers. at least once or twice per game you see him take a shot from just across the redline (twice last night for example) and at times maybe take shots that get blocked from the blueline when no lane was really open. one or two shots per game makes tons of differences in corsi type numbers given the fact a dman tends to only play about a third of a game. (i realize this is a wild out there observation that might be totally off base, but i cann't help but think it watching nightly shots from the redline)

again, i have never been a personal 'fan' of subban, going back to the old rivalry with montreal fanboys that i thought overated him. i also am an older old school guy who simply has never liked what i thought were 'look at me' type players. i realize that age seems to be a dividing line here of old school versus personality in several cases. that's ok. it's ok to not be a personal fan of one of our players too. i try to be a fan of success and a non-fan of failure for us and not for or against individuals. again, i just want him to be better so that we are better.

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02-08-2017, 11:13 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303 View Post
weber's gone, i'm over him. any critique of subban from me comes from the fact that i want him to be better to make our current team better. so when i say i'm 'disappointed' in his game so far, it's because well we need him to be better.

let me be perfectly frank on what i think he has done well and where he hasn't lived up to the post trade hype from a purely hockey perspective, as unbiased as i can personally try to be;

..subban's stick work is excellent. really superior. both offensively and defensively.
..his edgework is as advertised, in that he can turn on a dime, unusual for a big man.
..he is a real danger once set up on the blueline because of these two things in making quick moves and getting a shot on net.
..he has a hard shot.
..he is pretty solid running the pp out on the point.
..he sees the ice well.
..he is a better man to man defender down low in the zone than i expected.
..he does have a physical, chippy, at times downright mean aspect to his game that disrupts oppenents.
..he looks up ice for potential stretch passes more often than any of our other defensemen
..he's apparently a good. loud but evidently likeable guy to his teammates
..he seems to truly enjoy when the team succeeds
..obviously he's a charitable guy to the community.

all those are pluses without a doubt, and don't think any of them are truly disputable.

now things i have seen that i have been disappointed in. and i have watched subban play many games before this season;

..he's the slowest skater we have right now. Injury playing a part? possibly. i hope that's it. he simply looks much slower than past years.
..his lack of speed gets him in more trouble than anything else defensively.
..he has to be extremely careful when he decides to pinch down the wall, penatrate with the puck, or try to step up at the blueline because of this slowness to accelerate.
..because of that, at least 1-2 times per game he winds up chasing a man back down ice.
..many of his penalties have come as a direct result of trailing his man (like last night).
..like several of our players (johansen,neal, others) he can be undisciplined at the very worst times late in the game.
..he gets too many shots blocked out high from the point.
..like most guys who are excellent stickhandlers he tries to do too much too often and turns the puck over. which is much worse for a dman as last man back than a forward like forsberg deeper in the offensive zone. especially slow ones.
..he simply hasn't been the penetrating, defense busting, puck carrying dman in the offensive zone most of us thought we were getting. maybe it's trying to eliminate turnovers, maybe it's injury-speed related. don't know, but he looks mighty hesitant to carry the puck in deep.
..too often he's too careless with the puck, especially noticable on the short, soft backhand passes he tends to make that get cleanly intercepted, which seems to happen once per game.
..i think he is part of the new generation of hockey players who understand 'advanced stats' and that they will play a role in contract talks. as such i think he takes shots at times to simply 'help' those numbers. at least once or twice per game you see him take a shot from just across the redline (twice last night for example) and at times maybe take shots that get blocked from the blueline when no lane was really open. one or two shots per game makes tons of differences in corsi type numbers given the fact a dman tends to only play about a third of a game. (i realize this is a wild out there observation that might be totally off base, but i cann't help but think it watching nightly shots from the redline)

again, i have never been a personal 'fan' of subban, going back to the old rivalry with montreal fanboys that i thought overated him. i also am an older old school guy who simply has never liked what i thought were 'look at me' type players. i realize that age seems to be a dividing line here of old school versus personality in several cases. that's ok. it's ok to not be a personal fan of one of our players too. i try to be a fan of success and a non-fan of failure for us and not for or against individuals. again, i just want him to be better so that we are better.
I think this is a good assessment of his strengths and weaknesses. Spot on.

I don't know if it's Housley or Laviolette putting the defensive pairings together right now, but I've been frustrated at keeping Subban\Josi separate from the get-go...but now Josi\Weber? Irwin\Ellis? Ugh.

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