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Old
02-13-2017, 06:59 AM
  #101
bdub24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldOnGold View Post
It's pretty funny that at the same time a bunch of people on here are saying they regret the Weber/Subban trade, the exact same thing is happening over on the Habs board, with their post-game thread being full of people wishing they had never made the trade and complaining that Weber isn't as good as they thought.
Came here to post about the same thing, with the addition of the observations from the Habs threads how slow Weber has become as the year had progressed. If that doesn't remind everybody of the Weber we got in round two...

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02-13-2017, 07:02 AM
  #102
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Reading the MTL boards is like this place in mirror image, it's almost funny to read. I thought, my expectations were, most overrated... yup pretty much a carbon copy.

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Old
02-13-2017, 11:18 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by pkshowban View Post
I agree..Subban have not a great season right now. I know him and he s better than that. But here the stats..The last 40 games

Shea norris weber 6g 13a for 19 pts and minus 2
Pk show ban 7g 15 a for 22 pts and minus 9

With a good season and no injury... for weber. And PK with not a good season and a big injury...I hope pk gonna find the right way in the Lavi s systeme to be better.

Sorry for my english.
Weber has been awful as a #1 for Montreal. He's like Dion Phaneuf for Toronto back in the day. He's just not fast enough or skilled enough to be the #1 D in Montreal.

That said the coach attached Emelin to him and forced Weber to clean up all of his mistakes.

Basically, Montreal is praying a rookie can come in and move Weber down to the second pair otherwise Shea is the face of the worst defence in the east when Markov retires.

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Old
02-13-2017, 11:30 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
Reading the MTL boards is like this place in mirror image, it's almost funny to read. I thought, my expectations were, most overrated... yup pretty much a carbon copy.
I hate to pollute this thread further with outsider opinion but this is post is quite true. I wouldn't read too much into reading posts about Weber on the Habs board, they tend to be more full of emotion than facts. It was a strange trade and it seems both fan bases are still trying to comprehend it.

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Old
02-13-2017, 11:42 AM
  #105
Drake744
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Originally Posted by donghabs98 View Post
I hate to pollute this thread further with outsider opinion but this is post is quite true. I wouldn't read too much into reading posts about Weber on the Habs board, they tend to be more full of emotion than facts. It was a strange trade and it seems both fan bases are still trying to comprehend it.
Ha. This is a pretty succinct way to put it.

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02-13-2017, 12:11 PM
  #106
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In addition to the fans being pretty hard on Weber, they have the additional layer of the media beating him up pretty badly. He's basically taking the blame for the losing streak the Habs are on in national media, which sucks for him, knowing the guy he is.

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02-13-2017, 04:00 PM
  #107
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Is this really a PK thing or is it the whole team underachieving except Arrvy and Hook

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Old
02-13-2017, 04:42 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
Is this really a PK thing or is it the whole team underachieving except Arrvy and Hook
It is absolutely a team thing.

I firmly believe had the trade never happened we would have basically the same record with Weber as we have without him.

Of course that is just opinion and speculation- obviously we will never know the answer to that question.

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02-13-2017, 05:48 PM
  #109
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It is absolutely a team thing.

I firmly believe had the trade never happened we would have basically the same record with Weber as we have without him.

Of course that is just opinion and speculation- obviously we will never know the answer to that question.
I agree that our failings have mostly been as a team, but I don't think we need to speculate about where we'd be with Weber when last years team was essentially as good as we've been this year up to this point. And that was both with Weber and fewer injuries.

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Old
02-13-2017, 06:37 PM
  #110
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We'll give you back Weber if you give us back Subban.

No but honestly guys, be patient. Subban has had a tough time with injuries lately, which is a first for him in his career, and I'm pretty sure he got his heart broken by the trade. You didn't get to see Subban at the top of his game yet.

He kicks it up a couple notches in the playoffs usually. Hopefully you get to see that this spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids View Post
In addition to the fans being pretty hard on Weber, they have the additional layer of the media beating him up pretty badly. He's basically taking the blame for the losing streak the Habs are on in national media, which sucks for him, knowing the guy he is.
I don't know where you get this from, but Weber has literally taken no heat whatsoever from the media so far. Not from the French media, at least, which are the ones that used to pile on Subban the most.

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Old
02-13-2017, 06:59 PM
  #111
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Im sorry, i don t want to be the outsider who pollute your thread. I almost watched all the predators games and im a fan of your team and hope they gonna do the playoff. I like subban and weber too..and i read all your comment each day from my home near montreal. i took the chance to talk here with my poor english but if it s a probleme for you. i can stop . good luck preds.

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02-13-2017, 07:15 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by drwpreds View Post
It is absolutely a team thing.

I firmly believe had the trade never happened we would have basically the same record with Weber as we have without him.

Of course that is just opinion and speculation- obviously we will never know the answer to that question.
I believe the opposite. The team failed at the start due to a lack of leadership and identity, something they are still struggling with. Had Weber not been traded, I doubt that would have been an issue. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be other issues, but I think this wouldn't be one of them.

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02-13-2017, 07:21 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Preds33 View Post
I believe the opposite. The team failed at the start due to a lack of leadership and identity, something they are still struggling with. Had Weber not been traded, I doubt that would have been an issue. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be other issues, but I think this wouldn't be one of them.
I'll give you the identity thing but not leadership. We traded a veteran for a veteran. The rest of the team was basically the same we ended with last year.

This team has no idea what it wants to do. It doesn't have the speed to play the up and down style Lavy wants to play. It doesn't have the gritty hard workers that can score to play that style.

This team is Jekyll and Hyde. I'd love to see a stretch of games where we played consistent hockey.

I'll throw this out there, do you think the guys get tired of hearing the Arvy hustle stuff? That's his game. Love that he plays that way but do you think there's a jealousy/annoying thing that happens when guys hear about his hustle and everyone expects them to play like that?

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Old
02-13-2017, 07:27 PM
  #114
Gnashville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drwpreds View Post
It is absolutely a team thing.

I firmly believe had the trade never happened we would have basically the same record with Weber as we have without him.

Of course that is just opinion and speculation- obviously we will never know the answer to that question.
My list of players
Underachieving or hampered by injuries: note this are my nicknames
Pernell Karl
FF9
Yoshi
Neal
Mr. Smith
Big Willy

Has better hockey in them:
Ry Jo
Elly
Matty Ek
Fish

About what I expected:
Rinne
Watson
Weber

Pleasant Surprise
Irwin
Zo
Saros
Highlander


Going Balls to the wall
RV son


Last edited by Gnashville: 02-13-2017 at 07:50 PM.
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Old
02-13-2017, 07:30 PM
  #115
Adz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkshowban View Post
Im sorry, i don t want to be the outsider who pollute your thread. I almost watched all the predators games and im a fan of your team and hope they gonna do the playoff. I like subban and weber too..and i read all your comment each day from my home near montreal. i took the chance to talk here with my poor english but if it s a probleme for you. i can stop . good luck preds.
Your English is fine. Please continue to contribute.

I'm sort of in the middle. I think the team would have gotten off to a better start with Weber. Continuity matters a lot and it's obvious that switching up the defensive pairs to account for PK has caused problems for Josi, Ekholm and to an extent Ellis. It's not that they're bad now, but they were all better playing the pairs they were last year. That said, Weber is on his way down. He's not a terrible player and I miss him a lot, but he has played hard over the past 10 years. His body is starting to wear down. That's just a fact. We saw a little of it in the playoffs, though I think there were other things going on then, too. Time is going to take its toll and I think Poile was wise to make the trade when he did.

I like PK. I think he showboats a bit too much, all the little spins and the things that make you notice him makes you notice with just a little bit of skepticism when he's not getting the points we expected him to get. But he is coming off an injury and he probably was pretty devastated by the trade. I have never heard anything coming from his mouth saying anything negative about Nashville, but you know that was a blow. He was playing for his favorite team. But I do expect--hope!-- to see him turn it on soon.

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Old
02-13-2017, 07:36 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
My list of players
Underachieving or hampered by injuries: note this are my nicknames
Pernell Karl
FF9
Yoshi
Neal
Mr. Smith
Big Willy

Has better hockey in them:
Ry Jo
Elly
Matty Ek
Fish

Playing good consistently:
Rinne
Watson
Weber

Pleasant Surprise
Irwin
Zo
Saros
Highlander


Going Balls to the wall
RV son
Glad you're not our GM.

Ellis has better hockey in him? He's been by far our best defender all year. Grown by leaps and bounds.

Fisher is the same player he's always been. Not sure you're going to get more out of him but he's consistent.

Pleasant Surprise? Zo? I'm assuming Zolnersuck? The guy is a train wreck. He's barely a passable 4th liner. Yeah, he hustles but he absolutely sucks as an NHL player.

Playing good consistently? Rinne, Weber and Watson have not been consistent whatsoever. Weber is the worst of our 6 defensemen. Watson I don't remember scoring in a long while. He had a great 3 or 4 game stretch but other than his physical game does not produce offensively. While Rinne's stats are good, he has been streaky. October and December were train wrecks. November and January he was a beast. This month he's been a bit of both.

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Old
02-13-2017, 07:49 PM
  #117
Gnashville
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Glad you're not our GM.

Ellis has better hockey in him? He's been by far our best defender all year. Grown by leaps and bounds.

Fisher is the same player he's always been. Not sure you're going to get more out of him but he's consistent.

Pleasant Surprise? Zo? I'm assuming Zolnersuck? The guy is a train wreck. He's barely a passable 4th liner. Yeah, he hustles but he absolutely sucks as an NHL player.

Playing good consistently? Rinne, Weber and Watson have not been consistent whatsoever. Weber is the worst of our 6 defensemen. Watson I don't remember scoring in a long while. He had a great 3 or 4 game stretch but other than his physical game does not produce offensively. While Rinne's stats are good, he has been streaky. October and December were train wrecks. November and January he was a beast. This month he's been a bit of both.
Maybe I was harsh on Ellis and Fisher

Yes I consider Zo to be a pleasant surprise considering I have never heard of him before and he's at least hustling.

Instead of "Playing good consistently" I intended to say "About what I expected" my mistake

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Old
02-13-2017, 07:57 PM
  #118
glenngineer
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Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
Maybe I was harsh on Ellis and Fisher

Yes I consider Zo to be a pleasant surprise considering I have never heard of him before and he's at least hustling.

Instead of "Playing good consistently" I intended to say "About what I expected" my mistake
Fair enough.

Harry Z does hustle, I'll give him that but he's an offensive black hole and come playoff time won't be seeing much of the ice if at all. 4th liners need to bring more than hustle if they want to see the ice at that time of the year. He's played for Lavy in the past and while I appreciate the loyalty he's made some plays that just make me scratch my head. There was a play where Ekholm was passing him the puck up the left wing boards out of our zone, he sees the pass coming and just ignores the puck, the other team gets it and it ends up in the back of the net. I was like, what are you doing, you're the support for the dman and you ignore the pass. He just skated off. I was blown away. It was like he thought there was someone else there but the only one there was the other team's player...lol. It was comical and sad all at the same time.

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Old
02-13-2017, 10:30 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Preds33 View Post
I believe the opposite. The team failed at the start due to a lack of leadership and identity, something they are still struggling with. Had Weber not been traded, I doubt that would have been an issue. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be other issues, but I think this wouldn't be one of them.
Well then how do you explain the fact that last year we had Weber and all his great leadership and identity, and a basically injury free team all season, and yet this year's team, with all its warts, has a better record, better offense and better defensive numbers than last year through 56 games???

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Old
02-13-2017, 10:40 PM
  #120
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I'm pretty much willing to give it til the end of next season before I start making judgements...
This is how I feel. I just think it takes a while for defensemen, especially those on a top pair, to come to a new team and fully learn to play in that system and with new teammates. Then add an injury in his first year here it makes it that much harder to get going.

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02-14-2017, 05:33 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by drwpreds View Post
Well then how do you explain the fact that last year we had Weber and all his great leadership and identity, and a basically injury free team all season, and yet this year's team, with all its warts, has a better record, better offense and better defensive numbers than last year through 56 games???
again, this is a disingenuous argument. you're not really comparing apples and apples here when you say 'if this trade was a negative why do we have the same record etc'.

the 'reason' we have an almost identical record, goals scored, goals allowed is simple.

neal, smith, Wilson, ellis, josi, jarnkrok, Forsberg, ekholm, ribeiro all have almost exactly the same point/goal totals they had this time last year. we have no individual whose goals totals have drastically dropped from last year.

the huge improvement of arvidsson and fisher from this time last year, and having johansen for a full year 'should' mean we are much, much better offensively. but we aren't, goals scored are almost identical. and this team with Johansen and these two scoring much more should be much stronger offensively than at this time last year.

on the defensive side, it super simple why goals allowed are virtually identical. rinne. .920, .904. saros .930, hutton .916. that's this year's save % versus last years from our goalies. they are playing much better. meanwhile we are giving up almost a full 2 shots per game more.

to me it's impossible to use the fact our record isn't worse argument here.

again, i'm 'ok' with the trade at this point, even though personally now I would have preferred a weber for johansen deal as I look back on it as I would prefer jones over subban... or a subban for Duchene deal would be ok with me.


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Old
02-14-2017, 07:43 AM
  #122
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again, this is a disingenuous argument. you're not really comparing apples and apples here when you say 'if this trade was a negative why do we have the same record etc'.

the 'reason' we have an almost identical record, goals scored, goals allowed is simple.

neal, smith, Wilson, ellis, josi, jarnkrok, Forsberg, ekholm, ribeiro all have almost exactly the same point/goal totals they had this time last year. we have no individual whose goals totals have drastically dropped from last year.

the huge improvement of arvidsson and fisher from this time last year, and having johansen for a full year 'should' mean we are much, much better offensively. but we aren't, goals scored are almost identical. and this team with Johansen and these two scoring much more should be much stronger offensively than at this time last year.

on the defensive side, it super simple why goals allowed are virtually identical. rinne. .920, .904. saros .930, hutton .916. that's this year's save % versus last years from our goalies. they are playing much better. meanwhile we are giving up almost a full 2 shots per game more.

to me it's impossible to use the fact our record isn't worse argument here.

again, i'm 'ok' with the trade at this point, even though personally now I would have preferred a weber for johansen deal as I look back on it as I would prefer jones over subban... or a subban for Duchene deal would be ok with me.
Again, the only reason I ever bring that up is in response to those who say trading Weber away has been a disaster and is the reason for all our problems this year.

That is it. You can't argue that when the results are better this year- you just can't.

I understand there are many other reasons for why we have struggled and for why our record is slightly better this year.....

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02-14-2017, 08:52 AM
  #123
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While the results of this years team versus last year's team are almost identical, there have been more blowouts for and against us this year which skews the stats. I'd say we're more inconsistent than last year. We turned over half of a d-corp which is causing part of this.

And to 303's point of trading Weber for Johansen, I have thought the same thing for a while now. I'd feel better with a Josi/Jones and Ellis/Ekholm top 4. Oh well, live and learn. And as far as to a Subban for Duchene trade, honestly, I'd do it just because we keep all our top D prospects and probably don't add anything to this deal. I'd then make sure I sign Fabbro, get him to the AHL next year and hope he takes the next leap and is in Nashville the year after that when he turns 20.

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Old
02-14-2017, 09:15 AM
  #124
Pred303
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i sure hope it's just a rumor that the locker room has some discord... and if it's not a rumor i sure hope subban isn't part of the split/cliques... coming off all the past rumors and whispers out of MTL for years now, and the fact we haven't heard of any troubles in our own locker room for the past 10 years prior to this year, would seem like a really strange conincidence.

if people think subban has been divisive now, cann't even begin to imagine how some would not like him if any of that were to come out as true.

not saying it is, most likely nothing at all to it, but something i honestly keep in the back of my mind because of the years of reading about the often speculated situation from some in MTL.

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02-14-2017, 09:29 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
While the results of this years team versus last year's team are almost identical, there have been more blowouts for and against us this year which skews the stats. I'd say we're more inconsistent than last year. We turned over half of a d-corp which is causing part of this. .
I have looked at this before, and will have to do some research to get the exact numbers, but I don't think this is actually true- we had a bunch of blowout wins and losses last year, just like we have had this year. Really, if you look at last year's season, other than that hot streak we went on in late February (14 game point streak, etc) we were pretty darn bad (and inconsistent) the whole rest of the season. It is easy to forget that we went into another slump at the end of the year last year.

And you can't skew the records- they are what they are- our record is better right now than last year- period.

My main point is this- with everything that has gone wrong this year, if the Weber trade had been as big a problem as many are making it out to be, then we would not be sitting here in a playoff spot. We would be in much worse shape......

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