HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Matt Murray Calder Talk?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-15-2017, 12:50 PM
  #26
Evilo
Registered User
 
Evilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: France
Country: France
Posts: 36,151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by drew5580 View Post
poor Matt Tkachuk
Poor Nylander. Even worse for him since he's having a great rookie season (one few will have) and yet he's 3rd on his team among ROOKIES !!!

Evilo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 12:51 PM
  #27
pensfan7477
Phil The Thrill Hype
 
pensfan7477's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dahntahn Burgh
Country: United States
Posts: 8,743
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDNicks17 View Post
I don't think he has any business being in the conversation with Laine, Marner or Matthews.
I don't think you know what you're taking about

pensfan7477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 12:59 PM
  #28
Community
44 is Rielly good
 
Community's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Darkest Timeline
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,867
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
Really?
I will disagree. There are fewer defensemen per team, it's harder to crack a lineup and of course, Werenski has ALSO shined defensively, which is never asked of those rooke forwards.
I'm hardly a BJ fan, but to me, Werenski is right there with Matthews, Laine, Marner and Murray.
And not a single step lower.
I don't think it being harder to crack the lineup counts here as we're talking about top players. The argument that fewer defensemen per team than forwards should work against Werenski considering there are more forwards that play and can outscore forwards than defensemen (ie what's better; being 25th/180 or being 25th/360?).

Also the point I made about elite shut-down defensemen vs. elite shut-down forwards (much more Dmen don't score and are elite while very few elite shut-down forwards don't score at elite paces; signalling that being top 25 in scoring as a forward is probably more impressive as it is more likely you've been a top 25 forward).

Finally, Matthews has also been great defensively, but he hasn't been in the toughest defensive positions of course (as you stated with most rookie forwards not expected to play in super defensive roles). However, while Werenski has been good defensively when asked upon (according to you, I haven't watched enough to state this fact), he plays the 4th most TOI and 6th in PK toi. He also has the second highest amount of offensive zone starts (after Nutivaara). Without looking at advanced stats as I don't have time to look those up, I think it's evident that Werenski has not been tasked to play a lot of defense so I would take that out of the equation.

Community is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 12:59 PM
  #29
piteus
Registered User
 
piteus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,866
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Community View Post
Why would last year count? Also, who cares who is the more impactful when voting for the Calder. As a goalie you are always (at least 99% of the time) the most impactful player on the ice. If your goalie has a bad game, you're very unlikely to win. If your #1C/D has a bad game, you can still easily win the game.

The award goes to "the player selected as the most proficient (competent or skilled) in his first year of competition". Could Murray win it based on that definition? For sure. However, if the award starts going to the most impactful player, then the award is going to favor rookie goalies and that's not how it should be.
You can also say performing at an elite level as a rookie NHL goalie is far tougher than forward or DMen due to the pressure and responsibility. One rookie mistake is glaring for a goalie vs. DMen. And a mistake by a DMen is more glaring than a forward.

That's why I said "rules vs. reality." I believe the rules imply we just acknowledge this year's regular season. However, please spare me the semantics ... in reality, if you count Murray's entire rookie season (including last year), he should win the Calder hands down. How can you not discount what he did last year? That's all I'm saying. He is the most impactful rookie ... not just because he's a goalie.

piteus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:03 PM
  #30
Community
44 is Rielly good
 
Community's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Darkest Timeline
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,867
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DopeyFish View Post
I also say this quite frequently regarding Murray:

Calder, much like the Hart is story driven. The WOW factor.

The problem for Murray is the Penguins are a championship team, so winning is expected. When winning is expected, the only way Murray would be able to change to narrative is to make a ridiculous amount of highlight reel saves.

It's essentially a game rigged against him.



majority of the votes don't come from toronto, fyi.
I don't agree with the first line. The Hart is "story driven" because it's an award for the most valuable player, and in order to be the most valuable player you'll make a big difference in whether your team wins/loses (hence the wow factor/story driven --> ie When Price won the Hart it was because MTL was pretty **** without him, Kane won because of the wow factor of only player to hit 100pts).

The Calder is different IMO. How was Panarin more of a WOW factor than Ghost (didn't even start the season with the flyers before putting up a ridiculous amount of points) or McDavid (who had the Oilers looking like a playoff team before his injury)? Sure it wasn't expected for him to put up a ton of points, but most people knew he was pretty skilled and getting to play with Kane he'd put up some good points.

Community is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:06 PM
  #31
mgd525
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pensfan7477 View Post
I don't think you know what you're taking about
Murray has zero chance of winning the Calder, He hasn't started enough games. He's one of the best goalies in the NHL but has no chance with skaters always having an edge in voting. A goalie just isn't going to win it when 2 rookies are most likely going to break 40 goals on the year.

mgd525 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:10 PM
  #32
Community
44 is Rielly good
 
Community's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Darkest Timeline
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,867
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by piteus View Post
You can also say performing at an elite level as a rookie NHL goalie is far tougher than forward or DMen due to the pressure and responsibility. One rookie mistake is glaring for a goalie vs. DMen. And a mistake by a DMen is more glaring than a forward.

That's why I said "rules vs. reality." I believe the rules imply we just acknowledge this year's regular season. However, please spare me the semantics ... in reality, if you count Murray's entire rookie season (including last year), he should win the Calder hands down. How can you not discount what he did last year? That's all I'm saying. He is the most impactful rookie ... not just because he's a goalie.
Player A:

15-16: 27 pts in 20 gp
16-17: 30 pts in 62 gp

vs.

Player B:
16-17: 57pts in 82gp

Who deserves to win the calder if everything non-point wise is equal? Player A and B have the same points/gp over the last 2 years. Why should the previous year count in consideration, especially if his actual rookie year was significantly worse?

Again, he's the most impactful player (which can be good or bad) because he's a goalie. That's a terrible way to decide though and why the NHL doesn't decide based on this. He still has my vote for a top 3 and a chance to win it if he plays enough games, but judging based on impact and including multiple years is insane.

Community is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:10 PM
  #33
piteus
Registered User
 
piteus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,866
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Community View Post
I don't agree with the first line. The Hart is "story driven" because it's an award for the most valuable player, and in order to be the most valuable player you'll make a big difference in whether your team wins/loses (hence the wow factor/story driven --> ie When Price won the Hart it was because MTL was pretty **** without him, Kane won because of the wow factor of only player to hit 100pts).

The Calder is different IMO. How was Panarin more of a WOW factor than Ghost (didn't even start the season with the flyers before putting up a ridiculous amount of points) or McDavid (who had the Oilers looking like a playoff team before his injury)? Sure it wasn't expected for him to put up a ton of points, but most people knew he was pretty skilled and getting to play with Kane he'd put up some good points.
Not really. Even Hawk fans were shocked at the points he was putting up. Remember Panarin was injured for most of the preseason. While we knew he had talent, we didn't know what we were getting. He also had the WOW factor of playing on the defending Cup champions. That helped a lot. More importantly, he had some electrifying goals (some on Kane helpers / some on his own). There was a lot of showmanship to his game.

piteus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:12 PM
  #34
Romang67
Moderator
BitterSwede
 
Romang67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: The Bay Area
Country: Sweden
Posts: 21,550
vCash: 500
If Matthews, Laine and Marner keep up what they're doing, it's arguable that any of them would have won the trophy in any given season since Malkin won it.

Murray is a tremendous goalie, but he's simply not touching those three this season. Not with the number of games he'll end up playing. That's not a slight against Murray, but simply recognizing how good the top 3 have been this season.

__________________
Team Dunderhead
Winner of the inaugural Romang Award 2014
Romang67 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:15 PM
  #35
Petyr Baelish
Registered User
 
Petyr Baelish's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Church of Laine
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,225
vCash: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by piteus View Post
However, please spare me the semantics ... in reality, if you count Murray's entire rookie season (including last year), he should win the Calder hands down. How can you not discount what he did last year? That's all I'm saying. He is the most impactful rookie ... not just because he's a goalie.
In reality the award is for this year, not last year. Murray's past performance is entirely irrelevant.

Petyr Baelish is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:16 PM
  #36
Evilo
Registered User
 
Evilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: France
Country: France
Posts: 36,151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Community View Post
I don't think it being harder to crack the lineup counts here as we're talking about top players. The argument that fewer defensemen per team than forwards should work against Werenski considering there are more forwards that play and can outscore forwards than defensemen (ie what's better; being 25th/180 or being 25th/360?).

Also the point I made about elite shut-down defensemen vs. elite shut-down forwards (much more Dmen don't score and are elite while very few elite shut-down forwards don't score at elite paces; signalling that being top 25 in scoring as a forward is probably more impressive as it is more likely you've been a top 25 forward).

Finally, Matthews has also been great defensively, but he hasn't been in the toughest defensive positions of course (as you stated with most rookie forwards not expected to play in super defensive roles). However, while Werenski has been good defensively when asked upon (according to you, I haven't watched enough to state this fact), he plays the 4th most TOI and 6th in PK toi. He also has the second highest amount of offensive zone starts (after Nutivaara). Without looking at advanced stats as I don't have time to look those up, I think it's evident that Werenski has not been tasked to play a lot of defense so I would take that out of the equation.
The fact you take "Werenski's defense out of the equation" is laughable.
To be extremely polite.
A defenseman not been tasked to play a lot of defense.

Seriously...

Evilo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:18 PM
  #37
piteus
Registered User
 
piteus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,866
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Community View Post
Player A:

15-16: 27 pts in 20 gp
16-17: 30 pts in 62 gp

vs.

Player B:
16-17: 57pts in 82gp

Who deserves to win the calder if everything non-point wise is equal? Player A and B have the same points/gp over the last 2 years. Why should the previous year count in consideration, especially if his actual rookie year was significantly worse?

Again, he's the most impactful player (which can be good or bad) because he's a goalie. That's a terrible way to decide though and why the NHL doesn't decide based on this. He still has my vote for a top 3 and a chance to win it if he plays enough games, but judging based on impact and including multiple years is insane.
Murray was one of the main reasons for winning a Stanley Cup. There's no way around it. Obviously, it shouldn't count towards the Calder. However, in reality, he is the best rookie. IF Matthews did the same for Toronto, you'd be arguing the same thing if he's having a similar egular season like Murray.

I have no horse in the race. I'm not fan of the Penguins. Nor do I care about the Leafs. All being equal (ignoring the voting rules), Murray is the better rookie. It's tough to argue with the results.

piteus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:18 PM
  #38
traparatus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 268
vCash: 500
He deserves to be talked about and considered. I don't think he deserves to win even if you disregard last years playoffs and some potential Toronto bias. He just hasn't started enough games. It's not an empty stat either. Pushing over that 55-60 game mark rarely makes goalie stats better.

traparatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:20 PM
  #39
piteus
Registered User
 
piteus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,866
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petyr Baelish View Post
In reality the award is for this year, not last year. Murray's past performance is entirely irrelevant.
I didn't say otherwise. I'm just making a point that Murray had a better "rookie year" if you disregard the voting rules. How can anyone disagree?

piteus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:25 PM
  #40
traparatus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by piteus View Post
I didn't say otherwise. I'm just making a point that Murray had a better "rookie year" if you disregard the voting rules. How can anyone disagree?
If we going around disregarding stuff, let's just give it to Mcdavid.

traparatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:26 PM
  #41
ManofSteel55
Registered User
 
ManofSteel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,750
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
Meanwhile Zach Werenski is 17th in Dman scoring, and some people continue to forget him...
He's a defenseman in a year with top tier forward rookies. He never had a chance. He could finish top 5 in d-man points and still wouldn't be considered a favourite.

ManofSteel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:27 PM
  #42
1specter
Registered User
 
1specter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,450
vCash: 500
I am a Leafs fan, and at the beginning of the year, I felt that Murray was actually the favourite.

The problem is that his injuries, along with the constant yo-yo'ing that was going on between him and MAF, all but killed his chances. He's only started 29 games to this point...Pittsburgh has 27 games left still, but to be a serious part of the discussion I think he would have to start at least 50 games and I'm not sure he gets that at this point.

Also playing for a championship team weighs against him, even though he was a huge part of it last year.

1specter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:29 PM
  #43
ManofSteel55
Registered User
 
ManofSteel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 15,750
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
He wont win due toronto votes
Toronto votes could be split between Matthews and Marner.

ManofSteel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:30 PM
  #44
Community
44 is Rielly good
 
Community's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Darkest Timeline
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,867
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
The fact you take "Werenski's defense out of the equation" is laughable.
To be extremely polite.
A defenseman not been tasked to play a lot of defense.

Seriously...
Where did I say "Take werenski's defense out of the equation"? My last paragraph was about werenski's defense.

Community is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:31 PM
  #45
piteus
Registered User
 
piteus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,866
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by traparatus View Post
If we going around disregarding stuff, let's just give it to Mcdavid.
McDavid was a rookie last year. He's not eligible for the Calder this year. At least, make the candidate a rookie.

The reason I put the premise of including last year for Murray ... then it would be another thread where irrational Toronto and Winnipeg fans get into a fight about Matthews and Laine.

We all know Murray deserves to be considered for the Calder ... but he doesn't have enough regular season games to be really have a shot at winning.

However, if you phrase who's had the best / most impactful rookie season ... a case can be made for Murray. Nope, it would be Murray.

piteus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:34 PM
  #46
PatriceBergeronFan
Dismayed B's Fan
 
PatriceBergeronFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 24,839
vCash: 583
I don't see it. Playing on an elite team, 30 games... his team has 3 point per game players so little pressure. With far worse stats Fleury has a decidedly winning record as well.

PatriceBergeronFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:34 PM
  #47
alpine4life
Registered User
 
alpine4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Calgary, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,384
vCash: 500
at this stage, it's Matthews to lose it to whoever... at this rate he'll win it unanimously (or close)

alpine4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:37 PM
  #48
Redline
Registered User
 
Redline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: boardroom
Posts: 1,898
vCash: 50
Murray who was on my radar for Calder needed to take the #1 and hold it all year to surpass the incredible crop he's facing this season.

Redline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:44 PM
  #49
traparatus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by piteus View Post
However, if you phrase who's had the best / most impactful rookie season ... a case can be made for Murray. Nope, it would be Murray.
I completely disagree. You are talking about games played as if it's a formality. Murray has started 31 of Pens' 55 games. Every other rookie has been slugging it out there every single night, going through highs and lows, slumps, goal scoring droughts, you name it. Something that would be happening to Murray is he wasn't on the bench or injured for half of his team's games. You gotta play the games.

traparatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2017, 01:45 PM
  #50
hooverdam
Registered User
 
hooverdam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,033
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redline View Post
Murray who was on my radar for Calder needed to take the #1 and hold it all year to surpass the incredible crop he's facing this season.
He's arguably done that, though. Performance-wise he's blown Fleury out of the water. They play on the same team behind the same three PPG players, as the noted Pens hater pointed out, and Murray has annihilated Fleury pretty handily.

On any other team, Murray would be considered the number one official starter by the rest of the league. The problem is the Penguins organization is in denial about Fleury and keeps beating that "two starters" garbage drum and it's messed up the perception around the league. Local media hasn't helped either; there has been way more written about how nice Fleury is and how hard this year is on him than about Murray's fantastic season. It's ridiculous.

Based purely on performance, relative to his peers, Murray at least belongs in the conversation. That's all he can control and he's knocked it out of the park.

hooverdam is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:40 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.