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Matt Murray Calder Talk?

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Old
02-15-2017, 03:06 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriceBergeronFan View Post
I don't see it. Playing on an elite team, 30 games... his team has 3 point per game players so little pressure. With far worse stats Fleury has a decidedly winning record as well.
That might be a factor if anyone had used win/loss as an argument for Murray.

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02-15-2017, 03:08 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by traparatus View Post
I'm simply pointing out how silly it is to latch on to Sv% stat of a goalie who has started 30 games. Where did he rank 2 games ago? 7-8? So if this discussion starts on Feb 5, he is not a Calder candidate and today he is?
We need to remember to discredit Anderson and Darling though, because they have even less games played than Murray. Voila now he is actually second and was 4th 2 games ago.

No one is arguing that things cannot change until the vote is actually cast. A couple of people are for some reason arguing though that this is only true about Murray, not the Fs, who have all already played 82 games and scored 40 goals and never vary from being 25th in scoring to being 29th game to game.

For the record, I don't think Murray will or should win the Calder. At least not as things stand now and with how Laine is projecting to score, but that is based on the assumption that all of them keep more or less on track. Not on the stupid assumption that all Fs will, but Murray absolutely can't.

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Old
02-15-2017, 03:21 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Yeah but it's not, the first part is weighted somewhat heavily, but the 2nd part if over whelming, is something they don't ignore.

If Murray finishes the season 2nd in GAA & SV%, you would need some serious reasoning for why he's not even nominated. And that is way harder to do than scoring or putting up points, not that those are any easier, but consider Fleury's numbers and then look at Murray's. It's not a case of "Oh well, he plays behind a stupid good defense even their back up has great numbers" which isn't the case at all. Murray is already a Cup winner but still a rookie and hes justifying why he won the cup last year.

A goalie doesn't get the benefit of another young rookie (Marner, Matthews, and Nylander or Laine and his wingers/centers, or Werenski and his partner and who he passes to etc).

It's ridiculous that people are so bothered by Murray potentially being a nominee. If goalies so easily put up great numbers, teams wouldn't be having goalie issues.

A. If they have this "impact" factor to an "over-whelming" amount, they will likely qualify as the most proficient in their rookie season. However, this doesn't mean that impact will be what is judged by, it's a secondary effect based on how good they were. What I'm trying to get across is that impact itself shouldn't have anything to do with who wins the calder because it is weighted towards what position you play and the Calder shouldn't be weighted towards a specific position. Sometimes it is because people get wrapped up in points, but if it was renamed to the player with the most impact than goalies would be much more likely to win it.

B. I'm not bothered by Murray being nominated and if you looked at any of my other posts in this thread I've said that he should likely be #4 as of today and has a chance at winning it.

C. I never said anything about the team he plays on.

D. Goalies do benefit from other players on the team, obviously... Not saying this is the case with the pens, but it's naive to say that goalies don't benefit from other players on their team.

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Old
02-15-2017, 03:46 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empoleon8771 View Post
Murray will likely be a Vezina finalist this year too.
Because of 40-50 games on a stacked team, if he even maintains these stats?

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Originally Posted by Warm Cookies View Post
That might be a factor if anyone had used win/loss as an argument for Murray.
Far less pressure on him to do well.

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Old
02-15-2017, 03:46 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorstenFrings View Post
We need to remember to discredit Anderson and Darling though, because they have even less games played than Murray. Voila now he is actually second and was 4th 2 games ago.

No one is arguing that things cannot change until the vote is actually cast. A couple of people are for some reason arguing though that this is only true about Murray, not the Fs, who have all already played 82 games and scored 40 goals and never vary from being 25th in scoring to being 29th game to game.
There is a complete lack of understanding of just how volatile simple goalie stats are. Murray had Sv% of .921 ten days ago. I guess he transformed into a much better goalie since then. If anyone wants to hand him a Calder or maybe a Vezina, they should do it quickly. It will all change in a couple of games.

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02-15-2017, 03:50 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
Meanwhile Zach Werenski is 17th in Dman scoring, and some people continue to forget him...
I had Werenski in my top three at the start of the season but he is really cooling off as the Jackets have cooled off.

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02-15-2017, 04:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by LondonKendrick View Post

Who gets bounced from the all rookie team is a better debate IMO
Laine-Matthews-Marner

Weirenski-Provorov/Zaitsev

Muarry

Seems like no one gets bounced?

These are easily the best 6/7 players.

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02-15-2017, 04:20 PM
  #108
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He's good enough to be in the conversation, but he hasn't played enough games to win it. You could probably make a case for him being the best player who is a rookie, but not that he's had the best rookie season. He hasn't played enough, and there are some damn good rookies around the league this year.

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Old
02-15-2017, 04:21 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empoleon8771 View Post



Murray will likely be a Vezina finalist this year too.
Doubt he beats any of Dubynk,Holtby or Bob.

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02-15-2017, 04:22 PM
  #110
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He's great and he should get recognition, but let's not act like being a rookie on a Stanley cup winning team and doing well is the same as being a rookie on other teams.

That's not taking anything away from him, but it is difficult to get a proper measure of a player when he's surrounded by so much greatness.

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02-15-2017, 04:24 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Plural View Post
Hear me out here, since we're disregarding rules, I think Crosby should win the Calder. Considering his past seasons in the NHL I'd say he's the best rookie this year.
You might want to check your microphone. I don't think it's on. Read the original post before jumping into a discussion without context.

If you want to be funny, please feel free.

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Old
02-15-2017, 04:24 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empoleon8771 View Post
Murray will likely be a Vezina finalist this year too.
I highly highly doubt it. He just hasn't played enough to jump Holtby, Dubnyk, or Bobrovsky. And it would be questionable that he's ahead any of those three even if he did play more games with the same stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moorpheus View Post
He's great and he should get recognition, but let's not act like being a rookie on a Stanley cup winning team and doing well is the same as being a rookie on other teams.

That's not taking anything away from him, but it is difficult to get a proper measure of a player when he's surrounded by so much greatness.
Pens give up the 6th most shots against per game in the league, and he's still one of the top goalies in the league on a per game basis this year. Just look at Murray's numbers compared to Fleury's. .926 sv% for Murray, .904 sv% for Fleury. 2.27 GAA for Murray, 3.17 GAA for Fleury. He won't win the Calder, but being on the Pens isn't why.


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Old
02-15-2017, 04:51 PM
  #113
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Murray wouldn't be the first goalie to not make the top 3 in Calder voting even if he was a Vezina finalist at the end of the season. If we go by recent memory, leading the league in both Sv% and GAA won't guarantee you a place in top 3 Calder voting either. That doesn't mean he's not getting any consideration for the Calder. I'm sure majority of voters have him somewhere in their ballot which allows to rank the top five rookies.

This year's top scoring rookies are making it tough for Murray to make more headlines than they are at this rate. It's Professional Hockey Writers Association that votes for the Calder and they have a tendency to go with the most compelling storyline, a storyline that sells. No matter what the award's definition describes. So far, in that department, Murray has some catching up to do.

Last time a goalie came on top in Calder voting was Steve Mason who wasn't league's top 10 in either Sv% or GAA. All while the top scoring rookie had a better PPG than any of this year's rookies apart from Laine. Mason's storyline was still greater, 10 shutouts and leading his franchise to the playoffs for 1st time in their history. Both Matthews and Laine are benefiting heavily from being recent top draft picks. Although age and hype shouldn't be factors in determining the best rookie of the year, they do carry some weight for many voters.

There's still many games left on the season and things can change, but realistically I don't see Murray being any higher than #4 in Calder voting at the moment.

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Old
02-15-2017, 05:02 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skill Bill View Post
Murray wouldn't be the first goalie to not make the top 3 in Calder voting even if he was a Vezina finalist at the end of the season. If we go by recent memory, leading the league in both Sv% and GAA won't guarantee you a place in top 3 Calder voting either. That doesn't mean he's not getting any consideration for the Calder. I'm sure majority of voters have him somewhere in their ballot which allows to rank the top five rookies.
can you elaborate because what rookie goalie lead the league in save% and GAA and didnt get a calder nom?

Quote:
Last time a goalie came on top in Calder voting was Steve Mason who wasn't league's top 10 in either Sv% or GAA. All while the top scoring rookie had a better PPG than any of this year's rookies apart from Laine. Mason's storyline was still greater, 10 shutouts and leading his franchise to the playoffs for 1st time in their history. Both Matthews and Laine are benefiting heavily from being recent top draft picks. Although age and hype shouldn't be factors in determining the best rookie of the year, they do carry some weight for many voters.
so explain how being in the top 10 would lessen Murray's chances?

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Old
02-15-2017, 05:13 PM
  #115
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Not enough starts for Murray to win the Calder. His actual stats are Calder-discussion worthy, but his games played will hold him back from cracking the final-3.

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02-15-2017, 05:13 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by PatriceBergeronFan View Post
Far less pressure on him to do well.
This makes zero sense. Murray was in a battle for the #1 goalie spot with an incumbent who the entire org and city loves (no accounting for taste), so he knew he couldn't just be better than Fleury, he had to lap him. And he did.

Contrast that with Fleury, who faced the same pressure and wilted.

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02-15-2017, 05:19 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moorpheus View Post
He's great and he should get recognition, but let's not act like being a rookie on a Stanley cup winning team and doing well is the same as being a rookie on other teams.

That's not taking anything away from him, but it is difficult to get a proper measure of a player when he's surrounded by so much greatness.
Not only is he surrounded by greatness but he IS the greatness. Let's not act like if Murray would have won the Conn Smythe anyone would have complained. He's going to be dominant for years.

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02-15-2017, 05:36 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
can you elaborate because what rookie goalie lead the league in save% and GAA and didnt get a calder nom?



so explain how being in the top 10 would lessen Murray's chances?
Tuukka Rask led the league in both categories in 2009-10 and finished 4th in Calder voting. Rask only had 39 starts in his season and was playing for a strong contender splitting starts with Tim Thomas. Despite putting up some insane numbers, media didn't really focus too much on him that season.

I came off poorly on the second one. I was trying to say that Calder is more of a popularity contest than performance award. It's sad to see more focus on player career projections than their actual performance in their rookie season. If you meet the criteria of being rookie eligible, it shouldn't matter whether you are 18 or 25 years of age. I don't think that's the case for some voters that decide the fate of these awards. People confuse career projections and actual play in players' rookie seasons. Last season the sheer amount of crying about Panarin's age and experience was ridiculous... Too bad for the naysayers that he finished the season in league top 10 scoring.

Being top 10 in the main categories won't lessen Murray's chances of winning the Calder. Obviously it will only strengthen his stock. Why I brought up Steve Mason was the fact that goalies, by default, are not always overlooked. You don't have to put up an Eddie Belfour rookie season in order to win the Calder. What matters the most in determining the Calder is a compelling storyline and in that department, Laine and Matthews are so far ahead. Like it or not, being a recent top draft pick and hyped to the max will always make a compelling story. I don't see why this year would be any different.

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Old
02-15-2017, 06:06 PM
  #119
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There is little doubt - in my mind - that Matthews wins it. Laine prob second.
Completely forgot Murray is a rookie. He's been really good. Not Calder good considering the other candidates.

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02-15-2017, 06:38 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDNicks17 View Post
Laine and Matthews are on pace for 40+ goals.

That's a little more impressive than being 10th in GAA and 8th in SV%.
Making up stats to help your argument is in poor taste

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriceBergeronFan View Post
Because of 40-50 games on a stacked team, if he even maintains these stats?

Far less pressure on him to do well.
The Pens defense is far from stacked, especially defensively.

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02-15-2017, 06:52 PM
  #121
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Making up stats to help your argument is in poor taste.
Jeez. You guys sure are defensive haha.

I used a 10 game minimum.

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02-15-2017, 08:29 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by PatriceBergeronFan View Post
Far less pressure on him to do well.
That is hilariously incorrect. Murray has had to fight not only for the starting job but for his future with the Pens organization since day one of the season. In front of a defense that is giving up way too many shots.

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02-15-2017, 09:03 PM
  #123
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He was in the talk until he got hurt

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02-15-2017, 10:35 PM
  #124
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The "Calder discussion" is who will get third right? In that case, yes. He should be in it.

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02-15-2017, 11:18 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
can you elaborate because what rookie goalie lead the league in save% and GAA and didnt get a calder nom?



so explain how being in the top 10 would lessen Murray's chances?
There are no Calder nominees. If you mean finalist, which one of Matthews, Laine and Marner does Murray beat out if all four keep pace?

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