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The Red Wings are in the worst shape of any NHL Franchise

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Old
02-16-2017, 07:07 PM
  #51
Blainer114
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NY Rangers have an old team with very few prospects or draft picks they probably are

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02-16-2017, 07:07 PM
  #52
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The point you realize it's time to start the rebuild, it always looks pretty bad at first.

The Red Wings have been a mediocre team for a while now, finally missing the playoffs will (hopefully) make them go towards the full rebuild route.

It is concerning though how they don't have a single elite player to build around on. Good pieces as people have mentioned, but not one that stands out.

They'll be in a pretty bad spot until they draft someone who becomes a franchise player for them. How long that takes is up to the scouts and luck (especially luck in the draft lotteries). Worst case scenario the Red Wings could be a bubble team or worse for a long time, kinda like they've already been for 2 years now.

But yeah.. that's kind of the price you pay for having so much success for a long time. It's always bound to change at some point, how much is up to the management and again some luck.

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02-16-2017, 07:35 PM
  #53
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I'm only correcting you because it's the second time, his name is Glendening. Adam Clendening is a different human being.
Cheers

Wings could really use a fresh perspective from a new GM who doesn't have emotional attachment to this roster. Holland could use a fresh start as well. I don't think he can be ruthless enough to guide an effective rebuild.

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Old
02-16-2017, 07:36 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
What do they have going for them? A couple ok younger guys in Larkin and Mantha? It looks like it'll be a long rebuild.
I trust the wings will do a quick turn around

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Old
02-16-2017, 07:47 PM
  #55
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NY Rangers have an old team with very few prospects or draft picks they probably are
the rangers are a young team...

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Old
02-16-2017, 07:50 PM
  #56
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As a Wings fan since 1990, I will take their current position, for the success I have gotten to see in that time. The guy above saying they used every trick in the book, what are you on about, give yourself a shake of the head, and officiating is equally laughable for every team in the book.

Every good call, any team gets, will get you a brutal call against at some point, same goes for blowout losses. They go around for everyone at one time or another.

On topic, it is definitely tear down and rebuild time, however, they are not that bad in comparison to about 10-15 other teams. As bad as they are, they are still in the same boat points wise, as teams that are supposedly much stronger, ex. Florida, Tampa Bay, Buffalo, and more.

Larkin, Mantha, and Athanasiou give them 3 awesome young pieces to build around, and if Mrazek can go back to playing NHL goal, we at least have decent starting pieces. Where are trouble lies, is on defence, where we have no gamebreakers in the pipes right now, but defence is hard to draft on for every team. There are only so many, Doughty, Keith, Karlsson, Subban, etc., type d-men around.

Speaking of drafting, non Wings fans always forget, that the Wings, haven't had a top 10 pick since 1990 or earlier, so you aren't going to get many chances to draft awesome pieces later on, unless you get lucky. That is a long time to go, trying to keep key pieces coming in through the draft. Even Larkin and Mantha were only 14th and 19th overall, and we got lucky they are as good as they are.

While it is weird seeing them at the bottom, and their games the past few seasons have not been very fun to watch, I look forward to seeing where the rebuild takes the Wings.

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Old
02-16-2017, 08:07 PM
  #57
The Toews Era
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Originally Posted by Oddbob View Post
As a Wings fan since 1990, I will take their current position, for the success I have gotten to see in that time. The guy above saying they used every trick in the book, what are you on about, give yourself a shake of the head, and officiating is equally laughable for every team in the book.

Every good call, any team gets, will get you a brutal call against at some point, same goes for blowout losses. They go around for everyone at one time or another.

On topic, it is definitely tear down and rebuild time, however, they are not that bad in comparison to about 10-15 other teams. As bad as they are, they are still in the same boat points wise, as teams that are supposedly much stronger, ex. Florida, Tampa Bay, Buffalo, and more.

Larkin, Mantha, and Athanasiou give them 3 awesome young pieces to build around, and if Mrazek can go back to playing NHL goal, we at least have decent starting pieces. Where are trouble lies, is on defence, where we have no gamebreakers in the pipes right now, but defence is hard to draft on for every team. There are only so many, Doughty, Keith, Karlsson, Subban, etc., type d-men around.

Speaking of drafting, non Wings fans always forget, that the Wings, haven't had a top 10 pick since 1990 or earlier, so you aren't going to get many chances to draft awesome pieces later on, unless you get lucky. That is a long time to go, trying to keep key pieces coming in through the draft. Even Larkin and Mantha were only 14th and 19th overall, and we got lucky they are as good as they are.

While it is weird seeing them at the bottom, and their games the past few seasons have not been very fun to watch, I look forward to seeing where the rebuild takes the Wings.
It amazes me when red wing fans blame the success of 1990-2005 as the reason why they suck now. Uhmm, the spending more than other teams recruiting free agents etc was all by design and not some struggle designed by the fates. The cap era success lasted a grand total of what, one year with a cup and a handful of years as a contender? Other teams have had far more years of success as a top team in the cap era without turning to mush like this.

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02-16-2017, 08:18 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
It amazes me when red wing fans blame the success of 1990-2005 as the reason why they suck now. Uhmm, the spending more than other teams recruiting free agents etc was all by design and not some struggle designed by the fates. The cap era success lasted a grand total of what, one year with a cup and a handful of years as a contender? Other teams have had far more years of success as a top team in the cap era without turning to mush like this.
It's pretty damn hard to keep getting great players in the draft when you consistently draft bottom ten. When Kane, Toews, and Keith are exiting their primes in a few years you will start to understand this too. Role players can always be found fairly easily. But to hit on true star players without a top pick is nearly impossible with today's scouting.

Also, nitpicking but it was 1995 - 2010 really. Not sure why you didn't include those five years, we drafted bottom five in most of them.

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02-16-2017, 08:18 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
It amazes me when red wing fans blame the success of 1990-2005 as the reason why they suck now. Uhmm, the spending more than other teams recruiting free agents etc was all by design and not some struggle designed by the fates. The cap era success lasted a grand total of what, one year with a cup and a handful of years as a contender? Other teams have had far more years of success as a top team in the cap era without turning to mush like this.
You're the guy with the following opinions:

Toews > Malkin

Toews is in company with Sakic, Yzerman, Messier, and Trottier.

To sum it up. You silly dawg.

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Old
02-16-2017, 08:19 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
It amazes me when red wing fans blame the success of 1990-2005 as the reason why they suck now. Uhmm, the spending more than other teams recruiting free agents etc was all by design and not some struggle designed by the fates. The cap era success lasted a grand total of what, one year with a cup and a handful of years as a contender? Other teams have had far more years of success as a top team in the cap era without turning to mush like this.
You don't think that never drafting in the top 10 puts a team at a disadvantage? I would love to see Chicago without their top 10 picks. Some dynasty that would be.

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Old
02-16-2017, 08:21 PM
  #61
The Toews Era
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Originally Posted by LarKing View Post
It's pretty damn hard to keep getting great players in the draft when you consistently draft bottom ten. When Kane, Toews, and Keith are exiting their primes in a few years you will start to understand this too. Role players can always be found fairly easily. But to hit on true star players without a top pick is nearly impossible with today's scouting.

Also, nitpicking but it was 1995 - 2010 really. Not sure why you didn't include those five years, we drafted bottom five in most of them.
The red wings have been bad at drafting in lower rounds relative to other teams as well. And it was their own decision to sign various free agents to long contracts to stay in that 16th place. This is not the fates and the fedoriv yzerman years dooming you unfairly. The cap era was an even playing field and the wings seem to have played it poorly.

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02-16-2017, 08:24 PM
  #62
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The Streak became something of a curse as management was content to merely make the playoffs each year as cannon fodder for the like of Tampa. Every offseason involved supplementing a declining core through expensive short-term band-aids and giving out long-term contracts to mediocre players like Ericsson and Abdelkader.

Of the three ways to improve a team:

Drafting has been more or less average since the year 2000.
Management makes the fewest trades out of any organization in the league.
Elite players rarely hit free agency and Detroit is no longer a desirable destination.

I understand why Holland did what he did, but the outcome feels rather inevitable and has for some time.

Hawks may find themselves in a similar situation in 6-7 years

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02-16-2017, 08:26 PM
  #63
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They have good prospects and good young roster players. Just need a couple of young dmen to become decent top 4 options.

Larkin, Svechnikov, and Mantha are a solid set of 3 forwards to build a new core around along with guys like AA and Bertuzzi.

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02-16-2017, 08:27 PM
  #64
LarKing
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Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
The red wings have been bad at drafting in lower rounds relative to other teams as well. And it was their own decision to sign various free agents to long contracts to stay in that 16th place. This is not the fates and the fedoriv yzerman years dooming you unfairly. The cap era was an even playing field and the wings seem to have played it poorly.
We're not saying it's unfair lol. We're not crying foul here by any means. We're simply saying that the Wings success AND bad decision making by Holland has finally caught up to them.

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Old
02-16-2017, 08:28 PM
  #65
LarKing
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Originally Posted by AD1066 View Post
The Streak became something of a curse as management was content to merely make the playoffs each year as cannon fodder for the like of Tampa. Every offseason involved supplementing a declining core through expensive short-term band-aids and giving out long-term contracts to mediocre players like Ericsson and Abdelkader.

Of the three ways to improve a team:

Drafting has been more or less average since the year 2000.
Management makes the fewest trades out of any organization in the league.
Elite players rarely hit free agency and Detroit is no longer a desirable destination.

I understand why Holland did what he did, but the outcome feels rather inevitable and has for some time.

Hawks may find themselves in a similar situation in 6-7 years
This is spot on. We've been calling for Holland's head for years. The wings fans living in reality knew this was coming years ago.

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Old
02-16-2017, 08:29 PM
  #66
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We're not saying it's unfair lol. We're not crying foul here by any means. We're simply saying that the Wings success AND bad decision making by Holland has finally caught up to them.
Several people have blamed the success "from 1990" as a reason. I just dint see the connection between the buying free agents in an uncapped nhl having anything to do with the current roster. If anything it would be the success from 2006-2010, and many other teams have had far longer periods of success without it hindering them.

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02-16-2017, 08:30 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Christmas Izzy View Post
They have good prospects and good young roster players. Just need a couple of young dmen to become decent top 4 options.

Larkin, Svechnikov, and Mantha are a solid set of 3 forwards to build a new core around along with guys like AA and Bertuzzi.
And a 1C.

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02-16-2017, 08:33 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
Several people have blamed the success "from 1990" as a reason. I just dint see the connection between the buying free agents in an uncapped nhl having anything to do with the current roster. If anything it would be the success from 2006-2010, and many other teams have had far longer periods of success without it hindering them.
I wouldn't blame it as far back as 1990, but being near the top of the standings from 2005 - 2010 definitely hurt us for our situation right now. And then making the playoffs as a first round fodder type of team the next 6 years didn't help either.

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02-16-2017, 08:34 PM
  #69
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Well, any team is going to struggle when they lose a player like Dan Cleary.

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02-16-2017, 08:35 PM
  #70
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Well, any team is going to struggle when they lose a player like Dan Cleary.
Agreed. Nobody could replace his shut down skills. Not even Pavel Datsyuk could score when he was around.

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02-16-2017, 08:41 PM
  #71
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Zetterberg
Nielsen
Abdelkader
Helm
Glendening
DeKeyser
Ericsson
Howard
Weiss (buyout)
Those contracts aren't as bad as you think, maybe 500k over how much they should be making. Helm & Glendening are and have always been very important players for the team.

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02-16-2017, 08:57 PM
  #72
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I hope these discussions become more common so that management feels the heat. They've been complacent for too long.

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02-16-2017, 09:03 PM
  #73
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Those contracts aren't as bad as you think, maybe 500k over how much they should be making. Helm & Glendening are and have always been very important players for the team.
What value do you think Wings would receive back for Helm if they put him on the market today? I don't think they would get any positive value at all. Same goes for Nielsen.

It's no big deal if Wings are competing and all these players are doing well. However, if Wings decide to go for a full on rebuild, they have very few contracts that would bring back good value. Green, Vanek, Tatar, Nyquist. It doesn't make a rebuild impossible but it will slow it down by a couple of seasons.

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Old
02-16-2017, 09:12 PM
  #74
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I was talking about this with a friend few days ago and said they atleast have the worst future in the Atlantic. It's a long build to get a u25 core like Toronto/Florida/Buffalo have.



Canucks have atleast Juolevi, Stecher, Tryamkin, Tanev, Hutton, Gubranson on the blueline, Demko goalie prospect and Horvat/Boeser ain't too bad.
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Canucks youth blows that of the other two out of the water, and actually seems to be performing and improving at a decent rate, Virtanen aside. Meanwhile all the youth of Colorado appears to be absolutely lost out there(with Rantanen likely joining soon at this rate), and Colorado may have to blow it up anyways despite their core being so young. Detroit has next to no youth to speak of outside Larkin and maaaybe Mantha, and has a very, very long way to go. I can see the Canucks turning it around first, easily.
Well that's kindof what I was getting at but you said it better than I did. The Canucks have some nice young pieces. No question. I worry that because of that, they are never going to be bad enough to get that extremely high draft pick.

Colorado is at rock bottom. The Wings are heading there fast. I don't know if the Canucks are going to get there. That's what I meant when I said I'd be worried as a Canucks fan. Kind of a backwards compliment. They're too good to be terrible enough to turn it around quickly.

The Blues were the 20th best team in the league for like 8 straight years and it just SUCKED. Go big or go home.

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02-16-2017, 09:34 PM
  #75
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I had a look through Wings' roster on CapFriendly and some of their contracts are ... let's say questionable.

Abdelkader till 2023 @ $4.25mil + NTC
Helm till 2021 @ $3.85mil + NTC
Clendenning till 2021 @ $1.8mil
DeKeyser till 2022 @ $5mil

There is more there too. Zetterberg, Ericsson, Nielsen. What the hell is that about? Contracts like these are given to guaranteed core players, your team's foundation. What the **** has Abdelkader ever done to deserve that contract?

That is the most depressing cap situation I've ever seen. I knew it was bad but at a closer look, it's beyond bad. It's awful.
Many of us fans have pondered why Holland gives out long term contracts to role players. But even with those horrible contracts they will be up before anyone of elite player status needs to sign a big money contract. That's my hope.

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