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The Red Wings are in the worst shape of any NHL Franchise

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Old
02-17-2017, 03:39 AM
  #101
Hockeyfan2390
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
I feel like Holland has this weird idea in his head that everyone needs to retire a career Red Wing. It doesn't really work in the cap era where you can't overpay your role players. I don't think he's the right GM to lead them through the rebuild.
Pretty much. It worked for several players like Yzerman and Lidstrom, but he needs to stop living in the past.

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02-17-2017, 03:43 AM
  #102
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I actually had to look it up, but I couldn't believe Holland actually said the things he did.

http://detroitsportsnation.com/video...s-video/69329/

He actually did say "less can be more exciting". Does that sound a GM bent on bringing the Cup back to Detroit?

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02-17-2017, 04:16 AM
  #103
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I'd say the decline started when
- we lost lidstrom
- we missed out on suter
- datsyuk and zetterberg got old
- datsyuk left
- we missed out on stamkos
All that mixed in with Holland signing/trading for stop gaps re signing depth players to long contracts to make sure we use all of our cap room.
I'd say the stamkos thing was hollands last big effort for us to stay competitive, he failed. I believe hollands contract is up after next season. Blashill doesn't look like he will be here for too long. New owner (kind of, sort of, not really ), RIP Mr. I. New stadium which means new chapter. The rebuild is finally here and not exactly by choice.

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02-17-2017, 04:19 AM
  #104
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Don't forget trading a 1st round pick for kyle ****ing quincey after losing him for nothing after drafting him in the first round. If Jim benning pulled something like that there would be a long thread on main boards mocking him mercilessly.

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02-17-2017, 04:33 AM
  #105
LEAFANFORLIFE23
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Don't forget trading a 1st round pick for kyle ****ing quincey after losing him for nothing after drafting him in the first round. If Jim benning pulled something like that there would be a long thread on main boards mocking him mercilessly.
Holland is going to the hall of fame as a gm

benning is not

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02-17-2017, 06:18 AM
  #106
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It seems what most people here don't understand is that Detroit hasn't started the rebuild yet. This year will be the first we miss the play-offs and will have a chance to draft as high as 1-3OA.

At the same time we already have a really good young supporting cast in Larkin, Anastasiou, Mantha, Mrazek, DeKeyser, Qoulette and some decent prospects in Saarijarvi, Svechnikov, Hicketts, Bertuzzi, Cholowski. On top we have vets for sale, Vanek, Green, Tatar, Nyquist, Howard, Smith that may(!) return two 1st and a couple of seconds this and next year.

Now, we suck but we're in extremely good position to start rebuild. The trick is to do it properly.


Last edited by DamonDRW: 02-17-2017 at 06:24 AM.
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02-17-2017, 07:06 AM
  #107
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Just draft one of the all time best Swedish players in the 7th round, 3 time Selke winner in the 6th round and 7 time Norris winner in the second round and Detroit should be fine again.

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02-17-2017, 10:30 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
The longest run of relevance in the NHL that I have witnessed, might be finally coming to an end.
Might Be? its done... take that to the Bank

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02-17-2017, 10:45 AM
  #109
Birko19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
I feel like Holland has this weird idea in his head that everyone needs to retire a career Red Wing. It doesn't really work in the cap era where you can't overpay your role players. I don't think he's the right GM to lead them through the rebuild.
Don't think he's the right GM either, but some players you should do your best to keep in your franchise for the rest of their careers, even in the cap world, however these need to be absolute franchise players, not just regular stars, on the current Detroit roster the only guy that meets this criteria is Zetterberg.

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Originally Posted by Pav96 View Post
Might Be? its done... take that to the Bank
While I hope they take a dive in the standings and get a high pick, they're 9 points out of the playoffs and 25 games to go, it's still more than possible to make it.


Last edited by Birko19: 02-17-2017 at 10:51 AM.
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Old
02-17-2017, 10:47 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
I think how quick the can turn around depends on the quality of players they get from the next 2-3 drafts. It seems as though they already have some key pieces in place that will help accelerate the rebuild.

The Wings Current Lineup is something like this:

Tatar-Zetterberg-Mantha
Athanasiou-Nielsen-Vanek
Larkin-Helm-Abedlkader
Glendening-Sheahan-Ott

DeKeyser-Green
Smith-Ouellet
Kronwall-Jesen

Mrazek
Coreau


Of that list the only players I'd deem unmovable and part of the core going foreard are: Mantha, Athanasiou, Mrazek, Larkin, Zetterberg, Kronwall, and Mrazek. I think Mantha will prove to be a top line winger, Athanasiou a 50 point winger, Larkin I think will rebound and develop into a Kesler like role, and Mrazek will hopefully work hard this offseason and rebound next year.

Ideally, Vanek is moved for a 1st (if not a 2nd+3rd, or equivalent prospect), Green is moved for a 1st+, and 1 or both of Tatar/Nyquist are moved for either prospects or players in similar situations. If we do that I think we'll have the pick capital to start making a change. Overall, I think the rebuild lasts 3 years but that's all dependent on the drafts being not below average.
If something came up where Detroit could get a young higher end player and a high draft pick for Kronwall, they should take it and run. His decline over the past few years has been apparent, and he was never any better at his best than a mid-pack number 2. Purge him now. He should be made available.

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02-17-2017, 10:59 AM
  #111
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Kronwall is looking done like dinner. I'd take a deal and run if there was one to be had, but anyone who has seen him lately is not going to be interested in giving up anything of significance for him.

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02-17-2017, 11:22 AM
  #112
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It's definitely a mess. They are stuck with a lot of bloaded contracts. It's not going to be easy.

They need a fresh look on things. They need someone to come in and clear the deck as much as possible.

Take in soft deals, take in high cap hits but shorter term contracts for your long-term ones. Load up on picks and stop gap players. Sell those stop gap players as soon as the value is there. Repeat that until you finally have a strong nucleus to compete again.

They have some solid pieces to work with, so it might not even be that bad. But the longer they wait the worst it gets.

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02-17-2017, 11:24 AM
  #113
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I don't think they're that far away from competing. Obviously they've been stuck in limbo for a few years being a bubble playoff team. But they have a few nice pieces and i don't think the rebuild will take very long.

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02-17-2017, 11:25 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
That's a pretty **** poor foundation. That's nothing of quality better than any other team. We're starting from complete rock bottom if our gm/front office even decides to rebuild finally.
Yeah, I think sometimes there's a tendency to look at this stuff in a vacuum. Someone throws out a list of young players and promising prospects and assumes every single one of them is going to pan out.

A few years ago our fans were optimistic about Jarnkrok, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Oullet, Marchenko, Sproul... everyone is brimming with untapped potential and on track to become top-4 D or top-6 forwards. Now it's "Svechnikov, Athanasiou, Tyler Bertuzzi, Cholowski, Hronek". To be fair AA looks good and we'll probably get a few other serviceable players out of the bunch. Problem is, the more optimistic fans ignore the fact that other teams are adding young talent of their own, and with Detroit continually picking mid-to-late first, falling behind was inevitable.

Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Reilly
McDavid, Draisaitl, Puljujaarvi
Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen, Nylander
Barkov, Ebklad, Huberdeau
Werenski, Wennberg, Jones (acquired for a player drafted 3OA)

So not only are we no longer capable of matching up against contenders, or nowadays even making the playoffs, but our slow decline has watched numerous teams below us better position themselves for the future. Such is the cyclical nature of the cap world. 11 years ago Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, and St. Louis were the four worst teams in the league, and Buffalo won the Presidents Trophy the following year. I'm tired of watching the Wings swim against the current and would like to see them commit to an honest rebuild.


Last edited by AD1066: 02-17-2017 at 01:05 PM.
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02-17-2017, 11:27 AM
  #115
SprDaVE
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Originally Posted by AD1066 View Post
So not only are we no longer of matching up against contenders, or nowadays even making the playoffs, but our slow decline has watched numerous teams below us better position themselves for the future. Such is the cyclical nature of the cap world. 11 years ago Chicago, Pittsburgh, Washington, and St. Louis were the four worst teams in the league, and Buffalo won the Presidents Trophy the following year. I'm tired of watching the Wings swim against the current and would like to see them commit to an honest rebuild.
It's definitely almost inevitable to go through a rebuild, especially in a salary cap world.

The sooner your team can realize they need to rebuild, the better/faster you can get back to where you were.

I know this all too well as a Leaf fan. So many wasted years of desperation.

Unfortunately for the Red Wings, they signed a few long-term contracts for questionable players. It's not going to be easy to get rid of some of them. They have 66M commited (if you count Frazen) in 15 players going into next season... that's awful for a poor team.

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Old
02-17-2017, 11:29 AM
  #116
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i think the red wings are in a great spot to rebuild. They don't have a ton of prospects that need ice time like the devils. So they can go ham in free agency. It will be hard to get the bigger names but you can easily out bid for depth picks and move them as rentals at the deadline. It wont make you a contender but you will be better than colorado while stocking up picks and prospects. When you have too much talent they need to play to develop and it can really slow a rebuild down. I don't think the red wings will have that issue.

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02-17-2017, 11:37 AM
  #117
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The Red Wings used to draft gems in late rounds (and buy free agents pre-cap).

The Red Wings were screwed once they realised Nyquist and Tatar wouldn't be the next Zetterberg & Datsyuk (who in turn were the new Yzerman & Fedorov). There wasn't much else ready immediately.

But that's just the nature of the draft. Mantha & Larkin are the next in line, but neither screams franchise player, or even superstar. More like solid top 6 players, and that means they still need more major pieces. A lucky lottery, or a tank year, might fix that. Or not.

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02-17-2017, 11:44 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
Yup. It is those bad contracts, many of them signed within the last year that are really going to hold Detroit back.
If cap is filled with crap value, you can't have any kind of success?

So those are good contracts for tanking?

That's what everybody advices Detroit to do.

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02-17-2017, 11:53 AM
  #119
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Kronwall is looking done like dinner. I'd take a deal and run if there was one to be had, but anyone who has seen him lately is not going to be interested in giving up anything of significance for him.
I was surprised he was 35 all of a sudden. Time does that

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02-17-2017, 12:08 PM
  #120
Datsyukian Deke
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It is going to be an interesting rebuild, that's for certain. It's been needed to be done correctly for some time now, and all the horrible roster moves & bad contracts that have been made by Holland the last few seasons have only hindered that process for starting.

Now sadly, it won't be like a Hawks or Pens rebuild, with so many top 5 picks in a row to help expedite the turnaround process, but I still believe it can be an easier one if they simply cut the dead weight that has been hanging on, and start by putting together an actual Defensive core, seeing as there hasn't been anything resembling a defense since Nick retired.

I'd love to see guys like Frk, Bertuzzi, Lorito, Nosek, & Callahan, be given an actual shot with real minutes in the league to show what they can do. Then again, we first need a Head Coach that will be willing to give them those minutes. As we've seen from guys like AA & Mantha early on, get very limited minutes for no reason, while useless players such as Sheahan & Glendening get as much as they want. It'll be an uphill battle, that's for certain...they first need new leaders in GM & Head Coach to do it right, though.

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02-17-2017, 12:12 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
What do they have going for them? A couple ok younger guys in Larkin and Mantha? It looks like it'll be a long rebuild.
I'm thankful that so many "fans" of Detroit are so adamant about defending Ken Holland and the state of the current Red Wings. It really relieves the pressure on the GM to actually build a team that doesn't suck.

Seriously, come to our subforum and check it out.

We've literally had posters claim we don't need to tank for elite players because they can be found anywhere. People say "tanking is no guarantee!" as though that's actually a decent argument. Some people claim it's just injuries and if we can stay healthy and change coaches, we'll be a threat next season. Some people think the Wings have been good until this season because we made the playoffs.

It's an exercise in frustration. These people do not get how bad the team is and how bad it's been for years. Why would Ken Holland take any action? There's plenty of fans who are willing to look the other way and carry his water.
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Originally Posted by Hogan86 View Post
They have been great for so long, but the lack of high draft picks and some questionable moves by management have caught up with them. The Wings are pretty much in full rebuild mode. Yes Larkin and Mantha are great young pieces to start building around, but the Wings defense and bottom 6 forward group are pretty bad.
Our top 6 is pretty bad. We have no elite players and no one that looks like they could be one. No franchise level talent in the pipeline. Larkin looks like he's going to be a really really really poor man's 1C or a decent 2C. Mantha could be special but he's a sniping winger, not even a power forward. Hardly something you build around.

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02-17-2017, 12:12 PM
  #122
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They've had so much success over the past 25 years this was inevitable. They're going to have a few lean years for sure, but with good drafting and management could be a cup contender again in 5 years. Instead of clinging to false hope picking up a couple studs in the top 5 the next couple years will be very good for them. Watching a rebuilding team can be fun. I learned a lot about hockey watching the trainwreck that was the 2001-06 penguins.

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02-17-2017, 12:20 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
They've had so much success over the past 25 years this was inevitable. They're going to have a few lean years for sure, but with good drafting and management could be a cup contender again in 5 years. Instead of clinging to false hope picking up a couple studs in the top 5 the next couple years will be very good for them. Watching a rebuilding team can be fun. I learned a lot about hockey watching the trainwreck that was the 2001-06 penguins.
I'm all for that, if only whomever assumes ownership from the Ilitch family, wakes up and realizes they need an overhaul with our present management.

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02-17-2017, 12:20 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
They've had so much success over the past 25 years this was inevitable. They're going to have a few lean years for sure, but with good drafting and management could be a cup contender again in 5 years. Instead of clinging to false hope picking up a couple studs in the top 5 the next couple years will be very good for them. Watching a rebuilding team can be fun. I learned a lot about hockey watching the trainwreck that was the 2001-06 penguins.
Thing is, it didn't necessarily have to be like this. Over the past few years we traded a mix of 4 1st rounders, 2nd rounders, and 3rd rounders in exchange for guys like Zidlicky, Cole, Legwand, who ultimately didn't help us much at all in the playoffs.

Would those picks have turned into winners? It's 50/50. But it wouldn't have hurt. And it surely wouldn't have hurt considering we didn't do anything in the playoffs with those players anyway. We could have held onto our picks and given ourselves a chance to be more competitive.

Or we could stop signing role players to long term expensive contracts. The Ericsson, Abdelkader, Helm, contracts look real bad right now.

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02-17-2017, 12:21 PM
  #125
CantHaveTkachev
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yeah, when you're as good as the Wings have been...eventually the well runs dry

the Wings would be smart to start off loading some decent players and identify their core...then hope for a top 3 pick in this draft

either way, the rebuild needs to start

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