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Breaking down the Blackhawks' decisions last 7 years

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Old
02-17-2017, 12:36 PM
  #51
LetsGoBLUES91
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Am I missing something ?

This looks terrible in the long run.

The only player they got out of all of this is Panarin.
No you are not.

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02-17-2017, 12:36 PM
  #52
piteus
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Originally Posted by Cenzo_ View Post
Come on, Hayes never played a game for you guys, this turned out a terrible trade.

Adam Clendening played 4 games. Gustav Forsling is indeed hardly nothing but his contribution for the Hawks is only after 7 years after the trade. When considering the impact Ladd had, this is a bad/very bad trade.

A 2nd and 3rd for Teravainen is not much and that is because of Bickell but then again who signed him to that terrible contract...

You have to admit that in insights the Hawks traded some damn good players but got very little returns... but hey 3 cups and still contenders is worth it all that's for sure!
Let's put it this way ... if a team is loaded in talent and everyone else knows that team can't pay them all, that team has no leverage.

The beauty of the Hawks is that they acknowledge their core, signed them ... and then have enough money to build bottom 6 forwards / 3 DMen. The key will be to phase out some of the older core and replace them with younger capable players. You can see some of that transistion this year.

In regards to Bickell, the Hawks admittedly messed up. Part of it was acknowledging the bad decision to give up Buff (although the Hawks had little choice) ... part of it was Bickell's MS. Like I said, you also need some luck.

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Old
02-17-2017, 12:37 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
Either way, I think the young guys the Hawks have will keep them rolling another 5 years.

Panarin, Schmaltz, Hartman, Hinostroza, Kero, DeBrincat, Motte, Forsling, Kempny..

The Hawks already have a new wave coming....

I think the Hawks produce great players because they actually allow their young guys as much time as they need to develop and they don't rush them until they're NHL ready... That, and they have to really earn their roster spots.... If the kids aren't playing well they will be sent down until they work their kinks out....
This group can't hold a candle to the young cores that teams around the league are building. Sure, some of these guys could provide some depth scoring and help insulate the core guys, but once Keith, Seabrook, Toews, and Kane start trending downward (most of them already have), they are not going to be a contending team.

Nonetheless, what they've been able to pull off in the past decade in the salary cap era is unprecedented. Remarkable accomplishment

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02-17-2017, 12:43 PM
  #54
piteus
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Originally Posted by LetsGoBLUES91 View Post
1. Win a lottery that shouldn't exist with Panarin-Check!

Seriously. They are a borderline playoff team without him. That's why even with the salary cap, true balance will never win out. Looking at you Vesey.

Every other trade they've made to relieve cap has been questionable at best.
Lottery? The Blackhawks had to convince Panarin to play in Chicago. There were a lot of suitors. Heck, isn't Tarasenko one of Panarin's best friends? There's a reason why FAs want to play for the Hawks. Part of that is management.

And the Hawks also got hurt with the system. Lord knows how many trades they had to make because of the cap. If not, the Hawks could be going for their 6th or 7th Cup this year. And the Hawks lost Hayes because there was too much talent in the aystem ... even though he was drafted.

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02-17-2017, 12:48 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by kk87 View Post
This group can't hold a candle to the young cores that teams around the league are building. Sure, some of these guys could provide some depth scoring and help insulate the core guys, but once Keith, Seabrook, Toews, and Kane start trending downward (most of them already have), they are not going to be a contending team.

Nonetheless, what they've been able to pull off in the past decade in the salary cap era is unprecedented. Remarkable accomplishment
The biggest question is on the backend. Will some of their young DMen develop? That's the key. The other pieces are young enough and the replacement will be good enough. It's a fair question. Regardless, every team in the cap era has a window. The Hawks' window have been remarkably long. But asking for another 4-5 years isn't unreasonable. And like everyone else, the Hawks will have to rebuild. Yes, they will have to suck like everyone else for some time. The key is to limit the "suckiness."

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02-17-2017, 12:49 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by kk87 View Post
This group can't hold a candle to the young cores that teams around the league are building. Sure, some of these guys could provide some depth scoring and help insulate the core guys, but once Keith, Seabrook, Toews, and Kane start trending downward (most of them already have), they are not going to be a contending team.

Nonetheless, what they've been able to pull off in the past decade in the salary cap era is unprecedented. Remarkable accomplishment
Hawks don't need top 6 studs right now, although they have them in Panarin & Schmaltz and potentially DeBrincat...

Look, when you have the core the Hawks have all you need are the guys I mentioned..

The Hawks won't be trending down for at least 5 years.

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02-17-2017, 12:59 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Am I missing something ?

This looks terrible in the long run.

The only player they got out of all of this is Panarin.
Technically they got Panik too. Buff for Morin for Panik, although Morin was traded away and reacquired in between, lol.

But the point you are missing is they've had the core and have just had to add complimentary and depth type players. It's obviously worked.

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02-17-2017, 01:28 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by kk87 View Post
This group can't hold a candle to the young cores that teams around the league are building.
And the young cores around the league will have a hard time trying to accomplish what the Hawks core have actually done.

The time will come when the Hawks trend downward. It's not now. I don't see teams like the Oilers or Leafs, teams with good little youthful cores, being the teams that take over the mantle as the flagship team of the NHL. Not yet, anyway.

To be the man you gotta beat the man, and right now, the Hawks, with three Cups, are the man.

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Old
02-17-2017, 01:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Chicago would be in deep **** if:

1) They didn't get away with circumvention with Keith and Hossa
2) They didn't luck into Panarin

However, Bowman did terrible with Seabrook, Kane and Toews, so I doubt they'll be good in 3-5 years
Keith deal isn't circumvention, because he is going to play the entire term out. Just lucky timing of locking him up at a bargain rate.

And the JT/PK deals were OK based on what Bowman new at the time. Some bad luck that the oil market crashed right after those deals were signed and nullified the potential cap increases based on the CDN$.

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02-17-2017, 01:41 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post

The Hawks won't be trending down for at least 5 years.
Hossa will be pretty much done in the next 2-3 years.

Keith and Seabrook are likely to start slowing before 5 years.

Out of the core, only Kane and Toews will still be in their relative prime in 5 years time.

I'd say they are a good bet to be trending down from annual cup contenders in the next 2-3 seasons.

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02-17-2017, 01:42 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by kk87 View Post
This group can't hold a candle to the young cores that teams around the league are building. Sure, some of these guys could provide some depth scoring and help insulate the core guys, but once Keith, Seabrook, Toews, and Kane start trending downward (most of them already have), they are not going to be a contending team.

Nonetheless, what they've been able to pull off in the past decade in the salary cap era is unprecedented. Remarkable accomplishment
While I agree, that isn't a fair comparison as the Hawks are consistently drafting late. The fact that they are seemingly able to find guys who can contribute in complimentary roles is really key. Look at the Avs. Their drafting outside the first round has effectively gutted the team.

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02-17-2017, 01:55 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post


Toews and Kane would have got 12 per if they hit UFA....

People seem not to understand that...

How often do core members of 3 time cup champion teams hit UFA?? oh yea, they don't....

Those contracts weren't bad at all....
Which teams would Toews have accepted a offer of 12+ from? lol

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Old
02-17-2017, 02:10 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Cenzo_ View Post
Come on, Hayes never played a game for you guys, this turned out a terrible trade.

Adam Clendening played 4 games. Gustav Forsling is indeed hardly nothing but his contribution for the Hawks is only after 7 years after the trade. When considering the impact Ladd had, this is a bad/very bad trade.

A 2nd and 3rd for Teravainen is not much and that is because of Bickell but then again who signed him to that terrible contract...

You have to admit that in insights the Hawks traded some damn good players but got very little returns... but hey 3 cups and still contenders is worth it all that's for sure!
It's irrelevant to the trade that Hayes never signed. They got a 1st round pick out of the trade, picked a very good player, but he never signed. It was a pretty good trade at the time.

Isn't it about assets? Stan got a 2nd round pick (an asset), turned that asset into a much better asset, and that asset is one of the best D prospects in the NHL right now. Ladd really didn't have that much of an impact for us in the Cup year. He had a whole whopping 6pts in the playoffs.

Bickell probably wouldn't have been that bad of a signing had he not got MS. Something you can't predict. I would do that trade over again though, as it opened a spot for Schmaltz, and got us a 2nd and a 3rd.

Yes, Hawks have had to gut their teams like no other team. There is no comparison you can make with regard to other teams and how they have dealt with such an overhaul. I would say it has turned out pretty well, and the cupboard is still stocked with solid prospects to fill out the team for a long time. I would say it's a job well done.

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02-17-2017, 02:18 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by LetsGoBLUES91 View Post
1. Win a lottery that shouldn't exist with Panarin-Check!

Seriously. They are a borderline playoff team without him. That's why even with the salary cap, true balance will never win out. Looking at you Vesey.

Every other trade they've made to relieve cap has been questionable at best.
You are acting like Panarin just spun a random wheel and signed with the Blackhawks because it landed on them.

Also Panarin, an undrafted player, is not comparable to Vesey, a player who was drafted but spurned the team that drafted him.

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02-17-2017, 02:34 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
I think the Hawks produce great players because they actually allow their young guys as much time as they need to develop and they don't rush them until they're NHL ready... That, and they have to really earn their roster spots.... If the kids aren't playing well they will be sent down until they work their kinks out....
Sounds like something we'd say in Detroit. Turns out you're only as good as your core, and Chicago's doesn't have five years left. Without Panarin falling out of the sky you'd already be trending downwards.

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02-17-2017, 02:42 PM
  #66
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Considering they were up against the cap on most of these, it's pretty impressive

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02-17-2017, 03:07 PM
  #67
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Sounds like something we'd say in Detroit. Turns out you're only as good as your core, and Chicago's doesn't have five years left. Without Panarin falling out of the sky you'd already be trending downwards.
Of course, there's some luck involved. Every "dynasty" ... I'll use the term loosely here ... needs some luck. Because of Panarin, I think this cycle will at least last another 3 years ... if lucky, another 5 years.

There's been a lot of skill and luck to build this team. With a bit more luck, this can last another 5 years with another Cup. If the Hawks get unbelievably lucky, perhaps 2 Cups. In the modern era, only Montreal, Detroit, and Edmonton can say the same. I know the Islanders were there too ... but they were dominant and then gone in a flash.

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02-17-2017, 03:35 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by b1e9a8r5s View Post
Technically they got Panik too. Buff for Morin for Panik, although Morin was traded away and reacquired in between, lol.

But the point you are missing is they've had the core and have just had to add complimentary and depth type players. It's obviously worked.
Im not missing it.

Some people are calling it amazing management.

Im calling it crapping the bed a lot with thr value of your players and not getting anything in return BUT still looking good because youve got gifted 2 HOFers and a 1C.

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02-17-2017, 03:48 PM
  #69
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I see a lot of wishful thinking here. The Hawks have the second best record in the West. Their young guys are getting tons of playing time, yet Chicago’s still top ten in both GF and GA. They’re rebuilding on the fly, as good teams have to do in a strict cap league.

Whether they’re favorites come playoff time or somewhere in-between…it doesn’t really matter. Management has put them in an excellent position to remain competitive for a long time.

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02-17-2017, 03:50 PM
  #70
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Your list is puzzling for missing several important deals and also inaccurate in places. He is a far more complete and better breakdown:

6/10- traded Dustin Byfuglien and others for Jeremy Morin, Joey Crabb, Marty Reasoner, 2010 first (Kevin Hayes) and 2010 2nd
7/10- Traded Andrew Ladd for Ivan Vishnevsky? and a 2011 2nd rounder
8/10- Let Anti Niemi walk in FA to San Jose

The Hawks were in dire straights during that offseason. The Brian Campbell contract was absolutely crippling them (as was Tallon's overpay to Dave Bolland, something he would have a hand in doing again a few years later with Florida).
They basically traded two of their third line players for a 1st and a 2nd, as well as a former 1st (Vishnevsky) and a former 2nd (Morin). That isn't a bad return when they had to make deals and the only leverage they had was that they had multiple teams bidding for those guys.
The Niemi situation sucked. It wasn't even FA. He was awarded a very reasonable arbitration salary, but the Hawks could not even sign him for that paltry amount because the Sharks had extended an offer sheet to Niklas Hjalmarsson that the team absolutely had to match. They simply could not keep both. They made the right decision to keep Hjalmarsson and let Niemi walked. It was a brilliant move by Doug Wilson to put the Hawks into a No-Win situation and he knew he would get one of the two players for nothing.

2/11- Acquired Michael Frolik and Alexander Salak for Jack Skille and Hugh Jessiman
6/11- Traded Brian Campbell for Rostislov Olesz
6/11- Traded Troy Brouwer for 2011 first round pick (phillip danault)
6/11- Traded Tomas Kopecky for a 7th rounder
7/11- Signed Frolik (3*2.3) and Patrick Sharp (5*5.8)
2/12- Acquired Johnny Oduya for a 2013 2nd and 3rd rounder (no one notable)
4/13- Acquired Michal Handzus for 4th

These deals helped build the club back up (Frolik, Oduya, Handzus) were important pieces in 2013 Cup. They finally managed to unload Campbell, even though Olesz was deadweight his contract was cheaper and shorter and allowed the team (along with the deals to unload further salary in Brouwer and Kopecky) to make these other needed additions and salary increases for guys like Sharp.

6/13- Traded Frolik for 2013 3rd and 5th rounders (no one notable)
6/13- Traded Bolland for 2nd and 2 4ths

The next Cup winning cap purge. Not as difficult as previous purges.

6/13- Signed Antti Raanta
9/13- Signed Crawford (6*6) and Hjalmarsson (5*4)
11/13-Acquired Kris Versteeg (50%) for Jimmy Hayes and Dylan Olsen
3/14- Traded Brandon Pirri for 3rd (Hayden) and 5th
3/14- Acquired David Rundblad for 2nd (Dvorak)
6/14- Traded Brandon Bollig for a 2014 3rd rd pick
7/14- Signed Kane and Toews at (8*10) a pop
7/14- Signed Scott Darling
11/14-Traded Nick Leddy for Ville Polka, Anders Nillson and T.J Brennan
1/15- Acquired Gustav Forsling for Adam Clendening
2/15- Acquired Vermette for 2015 1st (Nick Merkley) and Klas Dahlbeck
2/15- Acquired Kimmo Timonen for 2 2nds

Building back up for the next Cup and dealing with major raises for Crow, Hammer Kane and Toews. They had to sacrifice a good player for cap reasons (Leddy) but it was either Leddy or Oduya and they made the correct short term decision in choosing the more responsible and better playoff performer which became very important in the 2015 cup run as the Hawks D depth was perilously thin and I don't think the Hawks could have withstood Leddy's defensive lapses on top of their weak 3rd pairing.

5/15- Signed Artemi Panarin (later extended in 2016)
6/15- Traded Brandon Saad, Michael Paliotta for Corey Tropp, Artem Anisimov and Marko Dano
7/15- Traded Patrick Sharp and Stephen Johns for Ryan Garbutt and Trevor Daley
7/15- Traded Antti Raanta for Ryan Haggerty
9/15- Traded Kris Versteeg, Joakim Nordstrom and 3rd for junk and 5th (Versteeg cap dump)
12/15-Traded Daley for Scuderi
1/16- Acquired Richard Panik for Jeremy Morin
2/16- Traded Scuderi for Christian Ehrhoff
2/16- Acquired Ladd again for 2016 1st (Rubstov) and Dano
2/16- Traded Danault for Tomas Fleischman and Dale Weise
6/16- Traded Tuevo Terraivanen and Bryan Bickell for 2016 2nd and 2017 3rd
6/16- Traded Andrew Shaw for 2 2016 2nd rounders (Krys and Debrincat)

The last cap purge after a Cup. Saad, Sharp, Nordstrom and Versteeg out with Anisimov and Daley in. Obviously a downgrade, but necessary. But then the really bad moves start cropping up. The unforgivable deals were Danault and a 2nd for two declining 4th liners and the other was swapping Daley for Scuderi once Daley asked for a trade. Scuderi was terrible and his contract still hurts the team this year. The Ladd trade looks bad in hindsight, but the Hawks were going for another Cup, had a hole in their lineup and Ladd was the most sought after rental available. It didn't work out, but it is the cost of doing business when competing. Cap purge continued this last offseason as the team was finally able to dump Bickell, but it did cost a decent player to do so. Shaw also sacrificed, but got decent value for him even though everyone on this site said they wouldn't.

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02-17-2017, 03:51 PM
  #71
piteus
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I see a lot of wishful thinking here. The Hawks have the second best record in the West. Their young guys are getting tons of playing time, yet Chicago’s still top ten in both GF and GA. They’re rebuilding on the fly, as good teams have to do in a strict cap league.

Whether they’re favorites come playoff time or somewhere in-between…it doesn’t really matter. Management has put them in an excellent position to remain competitive for a long time.
I still think this is a rebuilding hear. The Hawks should really be better in the next 2 years. This year is all quite a surprise. That's what's scary.

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02-17-2017, 03:59 PM
  #72
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Scuderi for Daley

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02-17-2017, 04:03 PM
  #73
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I still think this is a rebuilding hear. The Hawks should really be better in the next 2 years. This year is all quite a surprise. That's what's scary.
It's hard to predict what our rookies will be like in the playoffs, so in that sense I can see this as a building block kind of year. But at the same time, our core has proven itself to to be such playoff beasts that we'll always have a shot. I'm cautiously optimistic.

And to be honest, I think this year's team is better than last year's, especially on defense.

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02-17-2017, 04:08 PM
  #74
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No one will care about Chicago in the media after this season when the pens go back to back.

The Pens will have the undisputed best player of the generation, and the most cup appearances.

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02-17-2017, 04:12 PM
  #75
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In hindsight, it wasn't a GREAT contract. The Hawks were wrong forecasting the cap. However, if the cap goes the other way in the next few years (not likely), the contracts look better.

When you win, you have to pay. It's the price of winning. The Penguins will be going through the same going forward.

If you take a step back ... it really comes down to Hossa or Seabrook's contract. If they figure out viable options with either of those, the Hawks are in decent shape.

Due to the hard cap, the NHL is about developing and paying your core ... and finding cheap but capable bottom 3 DMen and bottom 6 forwards. The Hawks are really good at that. Some luck doesn't hurt either.
Penguins also lucked out on the Crosby contract. Signed through 2025, on a 8.7 million deal with the last 3 years at $3 million. If the rules were set the same for Crosbys contract as they were for Kane and Toews, do you think his cap hit would still 8.7? He's making 10.6 avg over the first 9 years of his contract, and 10.8 over the first 8.

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