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Phillips Arena renovations

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Old
02-23-2017, 01:02 PM
  #26
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Could someone explain to me how my thread about Philips Arena renovations, and their effect on hockey got so far off topic?
When nobody really has an answer to the question, tangential discussion tends to fill the vacuum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant Igloo View Post
If someone were to build an NHL arena north of the city and put down half a billion for the 32nd expansion team, every concern about Eastern Conference alignment would disappear in a cloud of smoke.
I wouldn't be opposed. Obviously they'd need to be incredibly careful and smart about how they marketed it, but there's no reason Atlanta can't be another Dallas or San Jose type market. The problem right now is you have a lot of legit hockey fans who are turned off of the NHL specifically.

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02-23-2017, 05:17 PM
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so much fake news in this thread about Atlanta.

ATL should not be penalized for not keeping the Flames in 1980. The same for the Thrashers.

I work where the majority of fans would come from (Cobb Co). I live in town. I have to go through DT to go home every day from work at Rush hour. It takes me 20 minutes to get from Marietta to Downtown. No different than any other commute in the league. The myth about Philips arena geography hampering a hockey team's success is just that- a myth.

The west side of Atlanta, which Philips is on the cusp of is going through a major renaissance. Neighborhoods bordering Philips like Castlebury Hill are becoming popular and the west side gentrification along Northside Dr will ultimately spread down to neighborhoods by Philips- Beltline will be a big contributor to this too.

The Thrashers did not fail due to geography. They failed because they were deliberately sabotaged by an ownership group who did not want them.

As I have reiterated many times, The Thrashers had more broad and enthusiastic fan support compared to the Hawks.

There was a rumor floating around this fall that was posted by a reliable source that the Canes were possibly looking to relocate to ATL...

Atlanta is as deserving if not more than Winnipeg.

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02-23-2017, 05:20 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post
so much fake news in this thread about Atlanta.

ATL should not be penalized for not keeping the Flames in 1980. The same for the Thrashers.

I work where the majority of fans would come from (Cobb Co). I live in town. I have to go through DT to go home every day from work at Rush hour. It takes me 20 minutes to get from Marietta to Downtown. No different than any other commute in the league. The myth about Philips arena geography hampering a hockey team's success is just that- a myth.

The west side of Atlanta, which Philips is on the cusp of is going through a major renaissance. Neighborhoods bordering Philips like Castlebury Hill are becoming popular and the west side gentrification along Northside Dr will ultimately spread down to neighborhoods by Philips- Beltline will be a big contributor to this too.

The Thrashers did not fail due to geography. They failed because they were deliberately sabotaged by an ownership group who did not want them.

As I have reiterated many times, The Thrashers had more broad and enthusiastic fan support compared to the Hawks.

There was a rumor floating around this fall that was posted by a reliable source that the Canes were possibly looking to relocate to ATL...

Atlanta is as deserving if not more than Winnipeg.
Well, that 'rumor' points to exactly what I want to know. If the Canes moved to Atlanta, could they still play at Philips? If so, what would be the lease arrangement? And, do you know for sure what exactly is being done to the arena? It sounded to be like hockey was not going to be possible any more.

Thanks.

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02-23-2017, 05:32 PM
  #29
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From these renderings it will affect the hockey configueration, but I don't think it will be as quirky as Barclays Center from these. Looks like the hockey booths and press box will be converted into club lounges so that might be an issue for any return to that building.

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02-23-2017, 08:20 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Please help me. I have seen several references to some renovations at Phillips Arena in Atlanta which are either ongoing or soon to begin. These references, cumulatively, suggest it is being made less "hockey friendly." So, I guess is well established.

What I have not seen is any actual description specifically is what is being done that makes it less hockey friendly. I have seen vague references to the corners, but nothing more. Does anyone know? Thanks.
the nhl is NEVER going back to Atlanta in the life time of any reading this

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02-24-2017, 08:26 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post

The Thrashers did not fail due to geography. They failed because they were deliberately sabotaged by an ownership group who did not want them.
Sorry, not familiar with the story. Why did the ownership sabotage their own business?

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02-24-2017, 09:28 AM
  #32
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Sorry, not familiar with the story. Why did the ownership sabotage their own business?
Short version -- they wanted the Hawks and the arena. But the Thrashers were linked to both of them, a package deal. So they purchased rights to the trio, with the intention of selling the Thrashers out of town. Before they had the chance, they started suing each other to the point that they were legally encumbered and not able to sell the team at all. So they sat on the franchise for a few years. During that interim period, the Balsillie saga proved that an owner couldn't move a team unilaterally. Once their legal issues cleared up and the team was eligible for sale again, they conducted a sham "search" for a local owner under preposterous conditions, then threw up their hands and said "oh well, looks like we have no choice." Thus shipping the franchise out of town as originally intended, with Bettman/BOG powerless to intervene.

Trust me, that's the short version.

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02-24-2017, 09:58 AM
  #33
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These number are way better than even Winnipeg. You just proved its a great market

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02-24-2017, 10:01 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Short version -- they wanted the Hawks and the arena. But the Thrashers were linked to both of them, a package deal. So they purchased rights to the trio, with the intention of selling the Thrashers out of town. Before they had the chance, they started suing each other to the point that they were legally encumbered and not able to sell the team at all. So they sat on the franchise for a few years. During that interim period, the Balsillie saga proved that an owner couldn't move a team unilaterally. Once their legal issues cleared up and the team was eligible for sale again, they conducted a sham "search" for a local owner under preposterous conditions, then threw up their hands and said "oh well, looks like we have no choice." Thus shipping the franchise out of town as originally intended, with Bettman/BOG powerless to intervene.

Trust me, that's the short version.
Thanks for the Coles notes. Just a few more questions. Why did they prefer the Hawks if, as posted above, the Thrashers were more popular and had better crowds? Also why not offer reasonable terms to a local and generate revenue off NHL as tenant? And lastly why so short-sighted when it would have been in everyone's interest to build value and profit from sale of a healthy franchise? Today they would have been able to sell for roughly 4x what they got then. Seems pretty botched on all levels.

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02-24-2017, 10:03 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by SunDancer View Post
Sorry, not familiar with the story. Why did the ownership sabotage their own business?
They never wanted the Thrashers. Only bought them because they were part of a package that included the NBA Franchise & control of the arena though of course at the time, publicly, in how they played it with the NHL they claimed otherwise. Their business plan & model simply didnt include an NHL franchise, they werent hockey guys, no abiding love for the game, figured they could make more in freeing up dates blocked out by NHL hockey. Unwanted Redheaded Stepchild that came with, and one that was expensive to maintain. No interest in pouring any money into it....

They couldnt however unload it, selling them off-market, 7yr clause, so under team President & GM Don Waddell (now employed by Karmanos in Raleigh) team was Tanked though of course no admission of such, quite the contrary, promises of Stanley Cup Glory, their actions however making a complete lie of those empty platitudes. When it finally leaked out that they were interested in selling, claiming they'd like to sell locally, a deal impossible as they controlled the facility and were not prepared to offer a Lease agreement to prospective owners that didnt pretty much insure their eventual insolvency, forcing the issue, forcing the team out, forcing the NHL's hand having complied with the 7yr no relo clause. Indeed, right up until it was announced that the club had been sold to Winnipeg they were denying the club was being sold off-market, taking deposits on Seasons Tickets etc. All done in secret.

Personally, I was shocked. Could. Not. Believe. It. You had denials coming from ASG & the NHL along with TNSE out of Winnipeg; Chipman & Thomson having played it the Leagues way & looking like they were 1st in line to acquire the Coyotes, were, and twice came within 24-48hrs of doing so, fully prepared to meet the NHL's then $170M price tag, a price btw that was based on what the NHL had paid for the Coyotes out of BK Court along with cumulative losses. There was no profit, no Relo Fee on top of the $170M. Transaction simply making the NHL whole again in recouping their losses. And once agreed upon, that was all Thomson & Chipman were prepared to pay. So when ASG finally took their masks off & dropped the gloves, telling the NHL they couldnt find a suitable local buyer, demanding the League allow them to sell off-market or cover the Thrashers losses for the following season "or else"....

.... Chipman re-directed to Atlanta and in conjunction with the NHL and with all parties vociferously denying anything was going on forced a purchase from ASG with ASG initially demanding they receive the full $170M that TNSE had budgeted for the Coyotes. This $170M price tag its important to note had absolutely no relevancy to any objective assessment of what a team in Winnipeg was actually worth, nor to what the Thrashers were worth in a market about 10X's the size of Winnipeg. It was a price derived, arrived at, sunk costs into the Coyotes. But as that was what TNSE had budgeted & what the NHL had previously agreed to they were stuck & Thomson wasnt going to budge. Bettman did try it on though. Demanded Thomson pay more, a Relo Fee on top of the $170M, Thomson then going into orbit and you do not mess with David Thomson. Extremely wealthy & well connected. Bottom line, ASG had to drop their demand for $170M, settling on $110M, the other $60M tagged a Relo Fee.

And today, the Winnipeg Jets are worth triple if not quadruple +++ what TNSE paid for them, and even at that time, a franchise in Winnipeg worth a lot more than $170M . So much for the NHL's much vaunted intelligence in understanding what constitutes any given markets true value, in setting Relo Fee's let alone Expansion Fee's. That one size does not fit all regardless of market size. How Bettman kept his job after this fiasco speaks to just how dysfunctional this league well & truly is. He screws up Royally in Arizona, gets himself boxed in with an agreed upon price for an off-market sale, ASG then goes nuclear, moving the Coyotes no longer an option and why with so compliant a Council in Glendale... and much to my delight for Winnipeg & its fans Chipman & Thomson take ASG, Bettman & the League to the cleaners paying less than half (or more at that time) of what a franchise in Winnipeg was actually worth and the NHL did this all to themselves, having for years trash talked the MTS as being "too small", Winnipeg being "small market, what happens if the CDN$ crashes" blah blah blah.

As for ASG, they would rank in the pantheon of Worst Ownership of All Time in the NHL right up there at the top. Thats twice now that the NHL had their hands forced in Atlanta, Cousins back in 79/80 with the Flames also forcing the Leagues hand in being allowed to sell out of market. That too a rather unseemly story of deceit & corruption, Cousins in trouble financially, real estate deals gone sideways, local offers including a group that included Canadian born actor Glenn Ford doubled by a group led by Super Grifter Nelson Skalbania & Calgary interests. Cousins demanding he be allowed to sell, collect, otherwise he'd go public & blow the whistle on the NHL's massive then 20+ year absolutely despicable fraud of a Pension Scam that eventually wound up in court in the early 90's led by former players including Carl Brewer, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr & others.... which of course the NHL lost including on Appeal's.


Last edited by Killion: 02-24-2017 at 10:32 AM.
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Old
02-24-2017, 10:09 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
These number are way better than even Winnipeg. You just proved its a great market
Then, so is Atlanta. http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendan...h.php?tmi=4682


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02-24-2017, 10:22 AM
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Did I say at was a bad market? No in fact I think we should go back. But the league doesn't want. That's Bettman and Daly. All the negative stuff about atl is from the league office, which is a shame. They don't want to go back there right now.


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02-24-2017, 10:43 AM
  #38
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Did I say at was a bad market? No in fact I think we should go back. But the league doesn't want. That's Bettman and Daly. All the negative stuff about stl is from the league office which is a shame.
I didn't say you did. My previous post was responding to someone who claimed Quebec soldout all their games which clearly isn't true.

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02-24-2017, 10:52 AM
  #39
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Thanks for the Coles notes. Just a few more questions. Why did they prefer the Hawks if, as posted above, the Thrashers were more popular and had better crowds? Also why not offer reasonable terms to a local and generate revenue off NHL as tenant? And lastly why so short-sighted when it would have been in everyone's interest to build value and profit from sale of a healthy franchise? Today they would have been able to sell for roughly 4x what they got then. Seems pretty botched on all levels.
Killion covered a lot of this above (told ya I gave you the short version!) but the answers boil down to:

- Because they wanted a basketball team, not a hockey team.
- Because they wanted the Thrashers out of the way, and in any case an NHL team renting from a hostile landlord is not a good situation.
- Because they were without question one of the most dysfunctional ownership groups in professional sports.

Atlanta wasn't going to be a Boston/NYC/Philly type of market, but there was no reason to think it couldn't have been a Dallas/Tampa, maybe even a SJ/Denver under good circumstances. Certainly good enough to justify having a team. That city and fanbase got screwed hard when ASG got their mitts on the organization, similar to how Pittsburgh or Nashville would have been screwed by Balsillie.

Part of the reason there's so much salt from sunbelt fans about Atlanta, even all these years later strong enough salt to derail threads here, is that it truly was a blatant injustice and screwing-over of a fanbase that had wavered but never really bottomed out to the point that we've seen in many other places. The eager coverage and ultimately the celebration of that sequence of events, like some triumph of justice, was very hard to take.

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02-24-2017, 11:12 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Part of the reason there's so much salt from sunbelt fans about Atlanta, even all these years later strong enough salt to derail threads here, is that it truly was a blatant injustice and screwing-over of a fanbase that had wavered but never really bottomed out to the point that we've seen in many other places. The eager coverage and ultimately the celebration of that sequence of events, like some triumph of justice, was very hard to take.
Right, and as you are certainly aware as should be most of the Members posting here, we on the Mod Staff on BOH dont take kindly to Salt Shakers. The market, the fans didnt fail Atlanta, the NHL & ownership did that all by themselves.
Incompetence, duplicity, stupidity on an epic scale. If your League, your World does not include one of the largest markets in the US, the Capital of the South then theres something wrong with you and dont be bringing it here.

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02-24-2017, 11:22 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Part of the reason there's so much salt from sunbelt fans about Atlanta, even all these years later strong enough salt to derail threads here, is that it truly was a blatant injustice and screwing-over of a fanbase that had wavered but never really bottomed out to the point that we've seen in many other places. The eager coverage and ultimately the celebration of that sequence of events, like some triumph of justice, was very hard to take.
What has also been hard to take, beyond anything about hockey, is states like North Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee poaching population and industry from the midwest and northeast in a race to the bottom. So when it comes to injustice and screwing over, I don't blame northerners for feeling like we finally got one over on the New South, even in some tiny, merely symbolic way.

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02-24-2017, 11:30 AM
  #42
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They never wanted the Thrashers. Only bought them because they were part of a package that included the NBA Franchise & control of the arena though of course at the time, publicly, in how they played it with the NHL they claimed otherwise. Their business plan & model simply didnt include an NHL franchise, they werent hockey guys, no abiding love for the game, figured they could make more in freeing up dates blocked out by NHL hockey. Unwanted Redheaded Stepchild that came with, and one that was expensive to maintain. No interest in pouring any money into it....
Another issue was ASG was seeing affluent white fans attracted to the Thrashers and the Hawks crowd was attracting more black fans which ASG thought was scaring away white fans. That came to light a few years after the Thrashers had been sold when emails by ownership were leaked.

There were people interested in buying the Thrashers and keeping them there but ASG was only offering a lease that would doom the hockey team.

Bettman gets a pass on this one - he had no other options in Atlanta.

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02-24-2017, 11:34 AM
  #43
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What has also been hard to take, beyond anything about hockey, is states like North Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee poaching population and industry from the midwest and northeast in a race to the bottom. So when it comes to injustice and screwing over, I don't blame northerners for feeling like we finally got one over on the New South, even in some tiny, merely symbolic way.
This is largely true. And it has especially hurt the Canadian teams, where guys are choosing to play there because of warm weather and lower taxes then in Canada.

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02-24-2017, 11:37 AM
  #44
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I didn't say you did. My previous post was responding to someone who claimed Quebec soldout all their games which clearly isn't true.
Not selling out by 500 seats isn't a good example. If you were to cite Winnipeg or Hartford from that timeframe, I would agree with you. Quebec was a better hockey market then both.

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02-24-2017, 11:52 AM
  #45
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ASG said:

"We're selling the team, but to own it in Atlanta you need to get a lease with us. We're going to own all extra revenue around the team and arena, but don't worry, I'm sure you can make it work. And hey, if it doesn't work, you can build your own arena, and be forced to compete with our arena."

Unsurprisingly no one stepped up locally.

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02-24-2017, 12:14 PM
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ASG said:

"We're selling the team, but to own it in Atlanta you need to get a lease with us. We're going to own all extra revenue around the team and arena, but don't worry, I'm sure you can make it work. And hey, if it doesn't work, you can build your own arena, and be forced to compete with our arena."

Unsurprisingly no one stepped up locally.
If a new arena was built today near the new Braves ballpark a hockey team might work.

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02-24-2017, 12:17 PM
  #47
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What has also been hard to take, beyond anything about hockey, is states like North Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee poaching population and industry from the midwest and northeast in a race to the bottom. So when it comes to injustice and screwing over, I don't blame northerners for feeling like we finally got one over on the New South, even in some tiny, merely symbolic way.
It wasn't "merely" symbolic to the hockey fans in Atlanta who were defrauded, and then mocked for their suffering.

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02-24-2017, 12:30 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by AintLifeGrand View Post
so much fake news in this thread about Atlanta.

ATL should not be penalized for not keeping the Flames in 1980. The same for the Thrashers.

I work where the majority of fans would come from (Cobb Co). I live in town. I have to go through DT to go home every day from work at Rush hour. It takes me 20 minutes to get from Marietta to Downtown. No different than any other commute in the league. The myth about Philips arena geography hampering a hockey team's success is just that- a myth.

The west side of Atlanta, which Philips is on the cusp of is going through a major renaissance. Neighborhoods bordering Philips like Castlebury Hill are becoming popular and the west side gentrification along Northside Dr will ultimately spread down to neighborhoods by Philips- Beltline will be a big contributor to this too.

The Thrashers did not fail due to geography. They failed because they were deliberately sabotaged by an ownership group who did not want them.

As I have reiterated many times, The Thrashers had more broad and enthusiastic fan support compared to the Hawks.

There was a rumor floating around this fall that was posted by a reliable source that the Canes were possibly looking to relocate to ATL...

Atlanta is as deserving if not more than Winnipeg.
Truth. Didn't hear the Canes rumor, however.

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02-24-2017, 01:24 PM
  #49
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The Canes aren't coming to Atlanta. Nobody's coming to Atlanta unless it's an AHL team which I would support if I didn't have to drive to the Southeast's most gridlocked suburb.

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02-24-2017, 01:28 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenway View Post
Another issue was ASG was seeing affluent white fans attracted to the Thrashers and the Hawks crowd was attracting more black fans which ASG thought was scaring away white fans. That came to light a few years after the Thrashers had been sold when emails by ownership were leaked.

There were people interested in buying the Thrashers and keeping them there but ASG was only offering a lease that would doom the hockey team.

Bettman gets a pass on this one - he had no other options in Atlanta.
So much truth to this that it's not even funny.

Atlanta is the city most jacked up on race in the entire country, no all of North America.

What was said in those e-mails was basically, (paraphrasing) we need the Hawks games to be presented more like the way the Thrashers were presented to draw white fans. Then, drawing from the affluent suburbs was never enough for the Thrasher owners; they had to draw black people (before anyone accuses me of anything -- this is in the public domain, just a google search away.) What is really amounted to was an excuse, as had been stated that the Thrashers outdrew the Hawks. And this with the Thrashers only having one really good team in the years they were there.

Atlanta was actually a pretty damn good hockey market. Philips was a good place to go to a game. My wife and I preferred driving an extra hour and a half down to Atlanta to go see a game than deal with some of what could become a really negative experience in Raleigh. A competitive team in Atlanta would have been great for the league.

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