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Phillips Arena renovations

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Old
02-24-2017, 01:38 PM
  #51
CHRDANHUTCH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
The Canes aren't coming to Atlanta. Nobody's coming to Atlanta unless it's an AHL team which I would support if I didn't have to drive to the Southeast's most gridlocked suburb.
technically, when Atlanta was abandoned, everything, now, the Braves have seen the trend, they bought/relocated the AAA Braves from Richmond to Gwinnett, NOW THE ECHL Gladiators began until a couple years ago, adopted the Atlanta moniker.

There won't be an AHL club coming to ATL, without dooming the Gladiators, who originally had been affiliated w/ the Thrashers.

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02-24-2017, 04:02 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
technically, when Atlanta was abandoned, everything, now, the Braves have seen the trend, they bought/relocated the AAA Braves from Richmond to Gwinnett, NOW THE ECHL Gladiators began until a couple years ago, adopted the Atlanta moniker.

There won't be an AHL club coming to ATL, without dooming the Gladiators, who originally had been affiliated w/ the Thrashers.
Since you don't live here , I can fill you in on the facts. The Braves moved because of a backroom deal between elected officials in Atlanta and Cobb County assisted by some developers. The mythology surrounding that is even more bogus than the arena location myth.
And you're probably right about the AHL.

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02-24-2017, 07:50 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
Not really an appropriate comparison if you're using stats from Winnipeg Jets 1.0 to that of the Atlanta Thrashers. In Atlanta there was the modern Phillips Arena with all the wonderful amenities in comparison to the old Winnipeg Arena with hastily constructed upper decks on either side of the building with obstructive views (i.e you could not see across to the other side because of the steel beams directly in front of you and you could not see the score clock so they set up tv screens on the steel beams which would display the score clock). The building was run by Winnipeg Enterprises which was an arms length entity of the civic government. Customer service was definitely not their priority. The Thrashers may not have made the playoffs for the bulk of their time in Atlanta but I don't recall them only winning 9 games during one season. Plus Atlanta also had some very good players like Dustin Byfuglien, Andrew Ladd, Evander Kane and Bryan Little.

In regards to the attendance comparisons, Atlanta averaged 14,914 over 11 seasons whereas the original Jets averaged 13,099 over 16 seasons (note: the final season was not included since it was a lame duck year when everyone knew the team was leaving Winnipeg). However, even though it was known the team was leaving after that final year, the Jets still averaged 11,316 which is still better than what some teams are drawing now. The current Winnipeg Jets are averaging 15,106 in the modern MTS Centre over 6 seasons (excluding the outdoor Heritage Classic game at Investors Group Field). The Jets also place a high priority on customer service. Having said all that, I would also like to see Atlanta in the NHL once again. I just don't think the negative undertones directed at Winnipeg are warranted.

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Old
02-25-2017, 08:39 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
They never wanted the Thrashers. Only bought them because they were part of a package that included the NBA Franchise & control of the arena though of course at the time, publicly, in how they played it with the NHL they claimed otherwise. Their business plan & model simply didnt include an NHL franchise, they werent hockey guys, no abiding love for the game, figured they could make more in freeing up dates blocked out by NHL hockey. Unwanted Redheaded Stepchild that came with, and one that was expensive to maintain. No interest in pouring any money into it....
Thanks. Lots to chew on here. I guess I'm just trying to understand what motivated ASG's hostility to the NHL. Maybe the Thrashers were never going to be a gold mine but they still could've been a nice business for them. The majority of NBA/NHL cities share an arena (only MIN, SF, DET, MIA, PHX have NBA/NHL specific arenas) so obviously there's money to be made there with the right partnership. Why weren't they interested in making it work? Maybe, as you said, they thought other events would be more profitable. Or perhaps if the Thrashers were just thrown into the deal for the Hawks (BOGOF), ASG didn't care and figured anything they got for them was gravy. Short-sighted either way.

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And today, the Winnipeg Jets are worth triple if not quadruple +++ what TNSE paid for them, and even at that time, a franchise in Winnipeg worth a lot more than $170M . So much for the NHL's much vaunted intelligence in understanding what constitutes any given markets true value, in setting Relo Fee's let alone Expansion Fee's. That one size does not fit all regardless of market size. How Bettman kept his job after this fiasco speaks to just how dysfunctional this league well & truly is. He screws up Royally in Arizona, gets himself boxed in with an agreed upon price for an off-market sale, ASG then goes nuclear, moving the Coyotes no longer an option and why with so compliant a Council in Glendale... and much to my delight for Winnipeg & its fans Chipman & Thomson take ASG, Bettman & the League to the cleaners paying less than half (or more at that time) of what a franchise in Winnipeg was actually worth and the NHL did this all to themselves, having for years trash talked the MTS as being "too small", Winnipeg being "small market, what happens if the CDN$ crashes" blah blah blah.
Yes, it's crazy ... especially since leaving a major US media market for Canada seems like the very antithesis of what the NHL's about. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when Gary broke that story to the board.

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Killion covered a lot of this above (told ya I gave you the short version!) but the answers boil down to:

- Because they wanted a basketball team, not a hockey team.
- Because they wanted the Thrashers out of the way, and in any case an NHL team renting from a hostile landlord is not a good situation.
- Because they were without question one of the most dysfunctional ownership groups in professional sports.

Atlanta wasn't going to be a Boston/NYC/Philly type of market, but there was no reason to think it couldn't have been a Dallas/Tampa, maybe even a SJ/Denver under good circumstances. Certainly good enough to justify having a team. That city and fanbase got screwed hard when ASG got their mitts on the organization, similar to how Pittsburgh or Nashville would have been screwed by Balsillie.

Part of the reason there's so much salt from sunbelt fans about Atlanta, even all these years later strong enough salt to derail threads here, is that it truly was a blatant injustice and screwing-over of a fanbase that had wavered but never really bottomed out to the point that we've seen in many other places. The eager coverage and ultimately the celebration of that sequence of events, like some triumph of justice, was very hard to take.
That might be true but dysfunctional ownership groups are Bettman's bread and butter. Managing them is his raison d'Ítre. In the last 20 years he's successfully dealt with a laundry list of dysfunctional, bankrupt, near-bankrupt and outright criminal ownerships. It's amazing to think that of all the resources he's spent on keeping franchises afloat, the market he lost was one of the largest in the US.

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02-25-2017, 09:03 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SunDancer View Post
That might be true but dysfunctional ownership groups are Bettman's bread and butter. Managing them is his raison d'Ítre. In the last 20 years he's successfully dealt with a laundry list of dysfunctional, bankrupt, near-bankrupt and outright criminal ownerships. It's amazing to think that of all the resources he's spent on keeping franchises afloat, the market he lost was one of the largest in the US.
Bettman WANTED Atlanta and even gave them an ASG in 2008.



But the NHL lost any control over the arena when Time-Warner sold to ASG.

Yes the NHL could have blocked a sale to Winnipeg but that would have been a PR nightmare in Canada and a nasty legal fight in Georgia that I don't think the NHL could have won. This was the one case that Bettman had no leverage.

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02-25-2017, 09:05 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DowntownBooster View Post
Not really an appropriate comparison if you're using stats from Winnipeg Jets 1.0 to that of the Atlanta Thrashers. In Atlanta there was the modern Phillips Arena with all the wonderful amenities in comparison to the old Winnipeg Arena with hastily constructed upper decks on either side of the building with obstructive views (i.e you could not see across to the other side because of the steel beams directly in front of you and you could not see the score clock so they set up tv screens on the steel beams which would display the score clock). The building was run by Winnipeg Enterprises which was an arms length entity of the civic government. Customer service was definitely not their priority. The Thrashers may not have made the playoffs for the bulk of their time in Atlanta but I don't recall them only winning 9 games during one season. Plus Atlanta also had some very good players like Dustin Byfuglien, Andrew Ladd, Evander Kane and Bryan Little.

In regards to the attendance comparisons, Atlanta averaged 14,914 over 11 seasons whereas the original Jets averaged 13,099 over 16 seasons (note: the final season was not included since it was a lame duck year when everyone knew the team was leaving Winnipeg). However, even though it was known the team was leaving after that final year, the Jets still averaged 11,316 which is still better than what some teams are drawing now. The current Winnipeg Jets are averaging 15,106 in the modern MTS Centre over 6 seasons (excluding the outdoor Heritage Classic game at Investors Group Field). The Jets also place a high priority on customer service. Having said all that, I would also like to see Atlanta in the NHL once again. I just don't think the negative undertones directed at Winnipeg are warranted.
Maple Leaf Gardens was pretty nasty in 1980s and yet they had better attendance then Jets 1.0

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02-25-2017, 09:15 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Maple Leaf Gardens was pretty nasty in 1980s and yet they had better attendance then Jets 1.0
The Maple Leafs have been 98% sold out since the end of World War II. Absolutely no comparison.

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Old
02-25-2017, 09:32 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DowntownBooster View Post
The Thrashers may not have made the playoffs for the bulk of their time in Atlanta but I don't recall them only winning 9 games during one season.
The old Jets made the playoffs 65% of the time and won 44% of their playoff games.

The Thrashers made the playoffs 9% of the time and won 0% of their playoff games.


I'd say the post above is an understatement of how much less momentum the Thrashers fanbase had to work with.

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02-25-2017, 11:20 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Fenway View Post
Bettman WANTED Atlanta and even gave them an ASG in 2008.

But the NHL lost any control over the arena when Time-Warner sold to ASG.

Yes the NHL could have blocked a sale to Winnipeg but that would have been a PR nightmare in Canada and a nasty legal fight in Georgia that I don't think the NHL could have won. This was the one case that Bettman had no leverage.
No doubt. That's what makes it so unusual. If you think of all the distressed owners that have hit the rocks during Bettman's tenure, it's almost half the league (PHX, OTT, EDM, PIT, BUF, NAS, NJD, NYI, TB, FLA, DAL, STL). Each time Bettman helped negotiate a local solution. Atlanta was more important than most of them, so it's surprising more couldn't have been done to keep them there.

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02-25-2017, 12:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SunDancer View Post
Atlanta was more important than most of them, so it's surprising more couldn't have been done to keep them there.
It's a different situation when the "distressed" owner is deliberately putting up a facade to get the league out of the way.

The closest comparable I can think of is the Moyes vs NHL situation, and ASG clearly took it as a case study in their own effort to out-maneuver the league.

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02-25-2017, 05:02 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
The old Jets made the playoffs 65% of the time and won 44% of their playoff games.

The Thrashers made the playoffs 9% of the time and won 0% of their playoff games.


I'd say the post above is an understatement of how much less momentum the Thrashers fanbase had to work with.
How many times has Columbus made the playoffs? They seem to be doing alright at the gate. Atlanta had some good players to build around plus they had an excellent arena for their fans. The Jets old arena was like a 3rd world facility in comparison. If you compare the Jets attendance now in the MTS Centre you would notice the games are sold out on a regular basis with one of the highest average ticket prices in the NHL. It looks like they won't make the playoffs again this year which means their percentage isn't a whole lot better than Atlanta plus they also won zero playoff games when they did make it. Again I'll point out that comparing the Jets 1.0 attendance records to any of the newer franchise's is not really valid since our building was from the stone age in comparison. The old building and lack of concern for the fan experience by the civic authority which ran the arena was a major reason for the lower level of attendance back then in comparison to how things are now.

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02-25-2017, 11:13 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownBooster View Post
How many times has Columbus made the playoffs? They seem to be doing alright at the gate.
Atlanta Thrashers average attendance for their entire history - 14,914

Columbus Blue Jackets average attendance for their entire history - 14,878

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02-26-2017, 10:20 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
Atlanta Thrashers average attendance for their entire history - 14,914

Columbus Blue Jackets average attendance for their entire history - 14,878
Exactly. Columbus is doing pretty good considering they only made the playoffs twice in 15 seasons.

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02-26-2017, 11:54 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
Atlanta Thrashers average attendance for their entire history - 14,914

Columbus Blue Jackets average attendance for their entire history - 14,878
And yet CBJ has had someone believe the team is a worthwhile investment in its present location for about twice as long as the Thrashers did. There's more to this story than just attendance.

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02-26-2017, 12:04 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SunDancer View Post
And yet CBJ has had someone believe the team is a worthwhile investment in its present location for about twice as long as the Thrashers did. There's more to this story than just attendance.
Sure enough, now, today, past couple of years or so but but not for the first decade of their existence. Close call in fact that they didnt completely bottom out, be forced to move. Total mess. How you screw up hockey in Ohio (like Minnesota) I have no idea but find a way they did. Doug MacLean, GM (now a sportscaster with SN out of Toronto, was also reputedly hired as a Consultant to Hamilton NHL interests) from 98/07 total disaster along the lines of Don Waddell in Atlanta. The Blue Jackets with a lousy Lease & a competitive facility nearby that wasnt supposed to be competing with them for concerts & events etc. Total nightmare.

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02-26-2017, 12:37 PM
  #66
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Sure enough, now, today, past couple of years or so but but not for the first decade of their existence. Close call in fact that they didnt completely bottom out, be forced to move. Total mess. How you screw up hockey in Ohio (like Minnesota) I have no idea but find a way they did. Doug MacLean, GM (now a sportscaster with SN out of Toronto, was also reputedly hired as a Consultant to Hamilton NHL interests) from 98/07 total disaster along the lines of Don Waddell in Atlanta. The Blue Jackets with a lousy Lease & a competitive facility nearby that wasnt supposed to be competing with them for concerts & events etc. Total nightmare.
Totally agree. And you can look at other franchises too that have looked very fragile in the past but for one reason or another they've just kept on ticking. That's why I can't get my head around what happened with the Thrashers. If there's money to be made on the Blue Jackets, Panthers, etc, why didn't ASG see the same potential in Atlanta? Surely they could've made more money than they did by selling to TNSE. Seems to me like a part of the story is missing.

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02-26-2017, 12:53 PM
  #67
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Totally agree. And you can look at other franchises too that have looked very fragile in the past but for one reason or another they've just kept on ticking. That's why I can't get my head around what happened with the Thrashers. If there's money to be made on the Blue Jackets, Panthers, etc, why didn't ASG see the same potential in Atlanta? Surely they could've made more money than they did by selling to TNSE. Seems to me like a part of the story is missing.
Well, to get down & dirty about it heres the deal on that.... ASG was comprised of some backwards provincial thinkers who didnt think a Canadian & Northern Yankee White Mans Sport was ever gunna thrive in the South without pouring a lot of money into it and they werent prepared to do so. They were Basketball guys, had no abiding love for hockey whatsoever, catered to a large African American audience & had zero interest in cultivating & promoting the game to what they considered their core audience, demographic & market.

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02-26-2017, 04:27 PM
  #68
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Well, to get down & dirty about it heres the deal on that.... ASG was comprised of some backwards provincial thinkers who didnt think a Canadian & Northern Yankee White Mans Sport was ever gunna thrive in the South without pouring a lot of money into it and they werent prepared to do so. They were Basketball guys, had no abiding love for hockey whatsoever, catered to a large African American audience & had zero interest in cultivating & promoting the game to what they considered their core audience, demographic & market.
I'm pretty sure that attitude was passed down into hockey ops. I remember reading an article way back when about black hockey players, and how the Thrashers had like 50% of the black players in the league at one point, and like 3/4 of the top 5 black players.

Was that a decree from ownership to try to spark interest in the Market to their hockey team?

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02-26-2017, 05:15 PM
  #69
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I don't know how to say it more gracefully than this... the arena isn't centered according to "NHL demographics", which largely reside north of the city.
Bill Daly was talking out of his ass. You can't get more downtown local centralized metropolitan than where Phillips Arena is located. Only the Braves and Turner Field were not part of that area for Atlanta sports.

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02-26-2017, 05:16 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
I'm pretty sure that attitude was passed down into hockey ops. I remember reading an article way back when about black hockey players, and how the Thrashers had like 50% of the black players in the league at one point, and like 3/4 of the top 5 black players.

Was that a decree from ownership to try to spark interest in the Market to their hockey team?
Sure was, the Thrashers at one time having 6 black players either signed or under contract. That represented about 1/5th of all the black players playing in the league at that time (09/10). They then spent budget on media buys in black urban media vehicles, radio, various publications. Atlanta's population is over 50% black so on certain levels it made some sense however on several others, namely in terms of overall competitiveness in the league no, not so much as beyond Dustin Byfuglien while promising, works in progress. It was an unusual situation for the black players as well, as in most cases their teammates elsewhere & in Junior etc, maybe 1 or 2 tops were black. According to the then Director of Marketing of the Thrashers, it did work but only briefly and like... duh huh?. Last time I checked Winning & Losing is color blind and losings losing. Black people like white people really could care less about the color of a players skin, just wanna see their teams competing with effort & hopeffully winning more than their losing & and dont appreciate the condescension, gratuitous catering, obvious pandering to the lowest common denominator. An insult to ones intelligence really. You go get the best possible players available regardless of point of origin or color of skin.... Only other time this kind of nonsense was attempted was under the Bat**** Crazy Major Fed McLaulglin, founder of the Chicago Black Hawks who one year decided he was going to ice an "All American Team".... In the 1930's.... when you had maybe 5 or 6 in total US born players even capable of playing in the NHL. Got absolutely hammered... in an empty building.... before dropping that little experiment.

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02-26-2017, 08:42 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
Atlanta Thrashers average attendance for their entire history - 14,914

Columbus Blue Jackets average attendance for their entire history - 14,878
Can't speak for Columbus but Atlanta's numbers (as is the case with several other franchises over in the past and possibly present) were widely believed to be fudged by several thousand per game for much of their existence. There is a difference between selling 14,000 per game and distributing 14,000 per game (in which case there are several thousand no-shows since people are not paying for their tickets) with crowds closer to 10,000 in actuality.

Atlanta also had average crowds of 13,000 (reportedly) in only their second season long before the Spirit Group bought the team. Why is that?

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02-26-2017, 08:47 PM
  #72
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How many times has Columbus made the playoffs? They seem to be doing alright at the gate. Atlanta had some good players to build around plus they had an excellent arena for their fans. The Jets old arena was like a 3rd world facility in comparison. If you compare the Jets attendance now in the MTS Centre you would notice the games are sold out on a regular basis with one of the highest average ticket prices in the NHL. It looks like they won't make the playoffs again this year which means their percentage isn't a whole lot better than Atlanta plus they also won zero playoff games when they did make it. Again I'll point out that comparing the Jets 1.0 attendance records to any of the newer franchise's is not really valid since our building was from the stone age in comparison. The old building and lack of concern for the fan experience by the civic authority which ran the arena was a major reason for the lower level of attendance back then in comparison to how things are now.
That's all fine and well, but the point still stands that you're exaggerating how hard it was to be a Jets 1.0 fan relative to a Thrashers fan.

The Thrashers played 4 meaningful games in their existence, and lost all 4 of them. At least the Jets usually got a ticket to the dance, even if they were one of the first teams sent home.

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02-27-2017, 01:44 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That's all fine and well, but the point still stands that you're exaggerating how hard it was to be a Jets 1.0 fan relative to a Thrashers fan.

The Thrashers played 4 meaningful games in their existence, and lost all 4 of them. At least the Jets usually got a ticket to the dance, even if they were one of the first teams sent home.
It wasn't the Jets that was the issue it was the building where they played. It wasn't designed to be a 15,000 seat facility but a 10,000 seat building. Fans in Atlanta could not relate since Phillips Arena was fantastic in comparison. It's like comparing an old jalopy to a new Mercedes Benz.

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06-28-2017, 05:05 PM
  #74
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06-28-2017, 05:22 PM
  #75
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Really hating more and more modern sports arena's

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