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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phillips Arena renovations

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07-06-2017, 02:49 PM
  #101
Tekneek
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Originally Posted by tucker3434 View Post
But it wouldn't matter where they put a new hockey team if they also didn't win a single playoff game for 15 years. They have to be competitive, and the fans will come. If Nashville can support a team, Atlanta can.
Definitely agree.

The first big mistake for the franchise was hiring Don Waddell. The next biggest mistake was never firing him. As bad as ASG was, competent management that was already doing well might have been able to make it work (Nashville had ownership issues, but David Poile never let it stop his plan from executing and he never ever had a splashy first overall pick to hang his fortunes on). ASG didn't know or care enough to bother. Don Waddell is a super nice gentleman, but he was a terrible NHL GM.

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07-06-2017, 02:54 PM
  #102
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AHL needs what, Bongo, an NHL Affiliation, as a pre-requisite, the days of an Independent died out when Worcester originally joined the league and the experiences of Baltimore and Binghamton trying that led to them being absolutely disasterous on-ice wise by the time the season ended, the AHL outlawed that practice, and changed the bylaw requiring an affiliation to be active.
There is yet to be some additional shuffling in the AHL ranks. The ease of travel in/out of Atlanta may help it stay attractive as teams continue to desire having their players closer than the northeast corner of the country.

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07-06-2017, 03:56 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Tekneek View Post
There is yet to be some additional shuffling in the AHL ranks. The ease of travel in/out of Atlanta may help it stay attractive as teams continue to desire having their players closer than the northeast corner of the country.
doubtful, tekneek, there's no arena, and it won't be Phillips, so I do not see Atlanta AHL anytime soon, and definitely St. Louis isn't coming to the rescue if Colorado lands team 31 by promoting the Colorado Eagles, leaving the Blues for San Antonio.... prevailing statement by the league that the Southeast isn't a target.

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07-06-2017, 05:32 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
Atlanta's ECHL Club is in serious jeopardy if Boston elects to leave at the end of this season, now with Spectra buying Alaska, and placing it in Portland.
REALLY doubt this. The Gladiators operated quite well as an independent (fairly common in the ECHL even to this day) for several years. And even if Boston pulled out, I suspect the Glads could find another affiliate. Truthfully, they've never really gotten all that many players from their affiliates (Boston and before that Phoenix) over the years anyway.

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07-06-2017, 06:15 PM
  #105
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Someone in a post above stated removing the permanent oval ends which are for hockey and making it more for basketball. I would guess that's what you're asking about.
We could be seeing the end of multi-purpose arenas. The new NBA arenas that opened recently do not have dimensions built for a hockey rink (Sacramento, Brooklyn, and Golden State in the future). You can always easily put a basketball court in a hockey arena but the sightlines just won't be as good as in a basketball arena.

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07-06-2017, 08:08 PM
  #106
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Basketball-only arenas are built because they are cheaper to build. It doesn't mean multI purpose basketball/hockey are inferior, quite the opposite. Chalk it up to short-sighted nickel and diming, e.g. that overpriced and mediocre arena in Brooklyn. As for the Philips arena renovation, that sounds more like an overpriced, kickback laden make-work project than anything else.

Atlanta's a big market and the potential for a functioning, well received hockey franchise is immense. It is the size of Raleigh, Nashville and Pittsburgh combined.

Detractors point to two failed franchises--Cept the two franchises were run by carpet baggers.

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07-06-2017, 08:33 PM
  #107
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fans generally will come when any team is competitive. I'm more worried how they fare when they are not competitive.

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07-06-2017, 08:38 PM
  #108
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Dirty little secret was the Thrashers inflated their attendance in the box scores. There were a lot of games where you'd see on TV crowds that could not possibly be more than 7 or 8k announced as far higher.

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07-06-2017, 08:56 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Cacciaguida View Post
fans generally will come when any team is competitive. I'm more worried how they fare when they are not competitive.
Why should fans be expected to fill a building when a team is bad, especially as bad as the Thrashers were? Blackhawks fans sure weren't expected to. And the Thrashers did better in attendance than Chicago for many of those seasons before Rocky took over.

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Dirty little secret was the Thrashers inflated their attendance in the box scores. There were a lot of games where you'd see on TV crowds that could not possibly be more than 7 or 8k announced as far higher.
Got a source for this? And again it was ASG's intention to drive the casuals away so good job on their part.

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07-06-2017, 09:07 PM
  #110
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Yeah, but Atlanta is the most important city in the South. Raleigh isn't even the most important city in its state. Nashville can't really be the entire South's team either.
Agreed.

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07-07-2017, 12:13 AM
  #111
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fans generally will come when any team is competitive. I'm more worried how they fare when they are not competitive.
I've found that logic doesn't go far on these boards.

In any industry you need to be strong enough to survive the cyclical downturn of your industry. When you suggest NHL teams should be able to be stable during a rebuild people scoff at that. If you aren't going 2 rounds deep in the playoffs it's expected you'll only draw 13,500 fans....because you're a terrible owner that hired a terrible GM.

Meanwhile...every team goes through this cycle....most have a strong enough fan base to weather it. If a market doesn't....well, it's not a bad market....it's bad ownership, management, arena location, etc.

You'll never get a consensus on these boards that any market is bad or weak. They could have had a franchise and lost it a dozen times....with different arena locations each time....wouldn't matter. They'd blame rude public transit staff or something.

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07-07-2017, 04:37 AM
  #112
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I've found that logic doesn't go far on these boards.

In any industry you need to be strong enough to survive the cyclical downturn of your industry. When you suggest NHL teams should be able to be stable during a rebuild people scoff at that. If you aren't going 2 rounds deep in the playoffs it's expected you'll only draw 13,500 fans....because you're a terrible owner that hired a terrible GM.

Meanwhile...every team goes through this cycle....most have a strong enough fan base to weather it. If a market doesn't....well, it's not a bad market....it's bad ownership, management, arena location, etc.

You'll never get a consensus on these boards that any market is bad or weak. They could have had a franchise and lost it a dozen times....with different arena locations each time....wouldn't matter. They'd blame rude public transit staff or something.
Again, Chicago didn't, Pittsburgh didn't, Washington didn't, St Louis didn't, Boston didn't, Colorado doesn't. Ottawa had a lot of sparse crowds this past season. No one thinks less of them for it. Any excuse is good enough to justify when a place like those doesn't sell out, but those people in Atlanta were an embarrassment.

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07-07-2017, 08:37 AM
  #113
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Definitely agree.

The first big mistake for the franchise was hiring Don Waddell. The next biggest mistake was never firing him. As bad as ASG was, competent management that was already doing well might have been able to make it work (Nashville had ownership issues, but David Poile never let it stop his plan from executing and he never ever had a splashy first overall pick to hang his fortunes on). ASG didn't know or care enough to bother. Don Waddell is a super nice gentleman, but he was a terrible NHL GM.

Don Waddell is the human embodiment of a compost heap. He added and abetted ASG iin their plan to kill hockey in Atlanta. He was a willing accomplice in their grand scheme to lose the team.

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07-07-2017, 09:44 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by zetastrike View Post
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Originally Posted by needmorefighting View Post
Dirty little secret was the Thrashers inflated their attendance in the box scores. There were a lot of games where you'd see on TV crowds that could not possibly be more than 7 or 8k announced as far higher.
Got a source for this? And again it was ASG's intention to drive the casuals away so good job on their part.
No, its not a dirty little secret. Its paid (higher number - announced/box score) versus ***** thru the turnstiles (lower/visible-on-tv). Its not manipulated, or fudged. Its simply paid attendance versus who showed up. Its common in a lot markets

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07-07-2017, 02:51 PM
  #115
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Dirty little secret was the Thrashers inflated their attendance in the box scores. There were a lot of games where you'd see on TV crowds that could not possibly be more than 7 or 8k announced as far higher.
The design of the arena meant that one entire side was club seats and those people spent a lot of time in the restaurant/bar area.

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07-07-2017, 02:55 PM
  #116
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Don Waddell is the human embodiment of a compost heap. He added and abetted ASG iin their plan to kill hockey in Atlanta. He was a willing accomplice in their grand scheme to lose the team.
Self-preservation is his (only?) talent.

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07-07-2017, 05:14 PM
  #117
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What are the odds Atlanta gets another NHL team? The last two didn't even last a combined twenty seasons ( For whatever reason).

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07-07-2017, 05:40 PM
  #118
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What are the odds Atlanta gets another NHL team? The last two didn't even last a combined twenty seasons ( For whatever reason).
A lot has to fall into place for it to happen but I hope I see it in my lifetime. For all the talk about QC and Winnipeg getting shafted by the NHL, what happened to Flames/Thrashers fans was worse. The the Jets or Nords didn't move because their owners had the league blackmailed like Tom Cousins, nor did the NHL sit idly by while their owners torched the markets. If there's any fanbase that the league owes something to, it's Atlanta.

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07-07-2017, 06:38 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by zetastrike View Post
A lot has to fall into place for it to happen but I hope I see it in my lifetime. For all the talk about QC and Winnipeg getting shafted by the NHL, what happened to Flames/Thrashers fans was worse. The the Jets or Nords didn't move because their owners had the league blackmailed like Tom Cousins, nor did the NHL sit idly by while their owners torched the markets. If there's any fanbase that the league owes something to, it's Atlanta.
IDK, If I agree there, but I do agree that there is no franchise except the existing one and even that is doubtful, I don't think the ECHL wants 2 independents in its ranks (Fort Wayne is the exception, rather than a trend).

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07-07-2017, 06:49 PM
  #120
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Again, Chicago didn't, Pittsburgh didn't, Washington didn't, St Louis didn't, Boston didn't, Colorado doesn't. Ottawa had a lot of sparse crowds this past season. No one thinks less of them for it. Any excuse is good enough to justify when a place like those doesn't sell out, but those people in Atlanta were an embarrassment.
Yeah but New York, Los Angeles, Philadelphia did. Atlanta has had attendance problems in other sports. This is not like Dallas were they were awful for years. Atlanta is a bad sports town, you're dying on the wrong hill. That said, the NHL needs to consider the corporate money and tv market they're missing out on here.


And a lot of people slammed Ottawa, including people off line.

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07-08-2017, 01:06 PM
  #121
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I predict that, if the league is still operating in 50 years and not had any franchise contraction, they will have given Atlanta another go.

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07-08-2017, 11:57 PM
  #122
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If some billionaire has money to burn/launder and if said billionaire can lobby/bribe Atlanta's politicians to subsidize an overpriced arena, Atlanta will once again host an NHL team.

Pro teams either have to consistently win, or have to be around for a generation to attract a loyal fanbase. Think of the Canucks. Despite being a monopoly in a Canadian market, their lousy on-ice results led to occasional relocation rumors up to the late 90s.

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07-09-2017, 01:17 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Tekneek View Post
There is yet to be some additional shuffling in the AHL ranks. The ease of travel in/out of Atlanta may help it stay attractive as teams continue to desire having their players closer than the northeast corner of the country.
Not only that but having another AHL team just up I-85 in Charlotte would likely help. The Checkers have often been the red-headed stepchild of the AHL and just had awful alignments.

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doubtful, tekneek, there's no arena, and it won't be Phillips, so I do not see Atlanta AHL anytime soon, and definitely St. Louis isn't coming to the rescue if Colorado lands team 31 by promoting the Colorado Eagles, leaving the Blues for San Antonio.... prevailing statement by the league that the Southeast isn't a target.
Infinite Energy Arena seats 11,355 for hockey. That's well in range for an AHL barn.

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07-09-2017, 02:36 PM
  #124
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Infinite Energy Arena seats 11,355 for hockey. That's well in range for an AHL barn.
There has also been discussion of the arena being expanded to about 14,000 seats as part of the expansion of the Gwinnett Civic Center project. It's not a top priority yet, but probably is still on the table once the other parts of the project are completed.

http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/loc...5115aa393.html

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07-09-2017, 05:33 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto View Post
Not only that but having another AHL team just up I-85 in Charlotte would likely help. The Checkers have often been the red-headed stepchild of the AHL and just had awful alignments.



Infinite Energy Arena seats 11,355 for hockey. That's well in range for an AHL barn.
again, the question becomes which NHL Team is even remotely interested in suburban Atlanta, and even then whether one is available, Charlotte had to buy their license, and Carolina wanted to expand their hockey footprint in the Carolinas, so that's why that worked, Didn't Charlotte backtrack to the Coliseum they were originally in rather than play 2nd fiddle to the Hornets at Spectrum Center as it is now known currently.

size of facility and seating, tbth, is secondary to acquiring a license....

I have my doubts that the Gladiators will survive the transition and the 'snobbish' REACTION of those who believe Atlanta needs a 3rd chance, and whether financially it makes sense to move an existing club up.... Charlotte has, Norfolk did also for 15+ years, and even here, we've seen that the economic viability of a self-sustaining franchise went up in smoke over 2 years ago, and when the local franchise claims losses of 450K, at the 2nd highest level of pro hockey, it begs to be right.

Hartford, has triple the franchise/affiliation fee, and the Rangers/MSG are asking for twice that to self-sustain an extension, in an NHL sized arena, mind you.

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