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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Copps Coliseum is now officially a 'relic'

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Old
02-21-2017, 11:46 PM
  #26
Human Bean
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The NHL is never coming to Hamilton, that's just a reality some around here need to grasp. I actually read a post on here the other day where the guy claimed a Hamilton NHL team would be #5 in revenues.

Man if that isn't delusional, I don't know what is.

Anyway they should go ahead an tear down that white elephant and put the land to better use. I'm sure a 5-6000 seat arena would work for the an OHL team to use before it relocates in a few years to be replaced by an AHL team which will last 5 or so years before relocating and being replaced by an OHL team again and the cycle will repeat as it always has in Hamilton.

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02-22-2017, 12:06 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
I actually read a post on here the other day where the guy claimed a Hamilton NHL team would be #5 in revenues.
Actually, that was claimed by the NHL, so I'm not sure why you're laughing - unless you disagree with the studies the NHL has done.

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02-22-2017, 12:14 AM
  #28
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Actually, that was claimed by the NHL, so I'm not sure why you're laughing - unless you disagree with the studies the NHL has done.
Yes, I do disagree.

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02-22-2017, 12:23 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
The NHL is never coming to Hamilton, that's just a reality some around here need to grasp. I actually read a post on here the other day where the guy claimed a Hamilton NHL team would be #5 in revenues.

Man if that isn't delusional, I don't know what is.
... that would be me your calling "delusional" there HB, but no matter, Ive been called worse.... and heres the deal on this "delusion" as you call it.... During the Moyes BK in Phoenix, Economics Professor Andrew Zimbalist testified that based on the NHL's own studies & projections, that there are close to 3 million hockey fans in the SW Ontario & Metro Toronto region whereas in NY/NJ there are app 1.9M & they of course have 3 teams. Furthermore, Bettman himself admitted under cross examination that a 2nd NHL Team in the market would be "Top 5", and, in various articles written at that time, before it & since, interviews with other NHL Team Owners when asked about Hamilton & Southern Ontario admitted (off the record) that they would "move there in a heartbeat if we could get away with it because even if you had to drop $600M or more, youd make it back within 4-5yrs". Simply put, it is the largest untapped & under-served market on the continent, the Comstock Motherlode that sits there untapped, and for reasons that have everything to do with greed, monopolization and restrictive trade practices. Indeed, granting a team or allowing a Relo to Hamilton would be highly problematical, as youd be giving birth to an economic superpower which could cause not just a ripple in the placid waters of the CAP & RS system, but a virtual tsunami that could potentially drown a half a dozen teams or more on the lower end of the financial spectrum.

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02-22-2017, 12:35 AM
  #30
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... that would be me your calling "delusional" there HB, but no matter, Ive been called worse.... and heres the deal on this "delusion" as you call it.... During the Moyes BK in Phoenix, Economics Professor Andrew Zimbalist testified that based on the NHL's own studies & projections, that there are close to 3 million hockey fans in the SW Ontario & Metro Toronto region whereas in NY/NJ there are app 1.9M & they of course have 3 teams. Furthermore, Bettman himself admitted under cross examination that a 2nd NHL Team in the market would be "Top 5", and, in various articles written at that time, before it & since, interviews with other NHL Team Owners when asked about Hamilton & Southern Ontario admitted (off the record) that they would "move there in a heartbeat if we could get away with it because even if you had to drop $600M or more, youd make it back within 4-5yrs". Simply put, it is the largest untapped & under-served market on the continent, the Comstock Motherlode that sits there untapped, and for reasons that have everything to do with greed, monopolization and restrictive trade practices. Indeed, granting a team or allowing a Relo to Hamilton would be highly problematical, as youd be giving birth to an economic superpower which could cause not just a ripple in the placid waters of the CAP & RS system, but a virtual tsunami that could potentially drown a half a dozen teams or more on the lower end of the financial spectrum.

Just a lot of hearsay and speculation and not much facts. If in fact Hamilton is so lucrative then why hasn't there ever been a legitimate expansion bid?

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02-22-2017, 05:33 AM
  #31
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Just a lot of hearsay and speculation and not much facts. If in fact Hamilton is so lucrative then why hasn't there ever been a legitimate expansion bid?
Being sandwiched in 2 teams territory doesn't help matters. One being one of the juggernaut franchises and the other is in the hometown of the chairmam of the board and beleives it would be damaged.

Those are 2 pretty big strikes and it may not he possible to overcome but let's not pretend there have been no attmpets to place a team there before.

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02-22-2017, 06:42 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
Just a lot of hearsay and speculation and not much facts. If in fact Hamilton is so lucrative then why hasn't there ever been a legitimate expansion bid?
Copps coliseum was built 30 years ago.

Hamilton made a bid in 1990.

In case you haven't been following, there have been numerous attempts at people trying to buy teams to relocate them to Hamilton over the past 15-20 years... All stopped by Bettman and the good ole boys.

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02-22-2017, 07:29 AM
  #33
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Just a lot of hearsay and speculation and not much facts. If in fact Hamilton is so lucrative then why hasn't there ever been a legitimate expansion bid?
What rock you been living under?

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02-22-2017, 08:16 AM
  #34
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Actually, that was claimed by the NHL, so I'm not sure why you're laughing - unless you disagree with the studies the NHL has done.
I'm almost certain that they are wrong.
Do you really think the people who proposed bids for Florida, Carolina and Arizona projected revenues to be as low as they are?
Absolutely not
There is generally is a huge difference between theoretical and actual.

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02-22-2017, 08:23 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by varano View Post
Copps coliseum was built 30 years ago.

Hamilton made a bid in 1990.

In case you haven't been following, there have been numerous attempts at people trying to buy teams to relocate them to Hamilton over the past 15-20 years... All stopped by Bettman and the good ole boys.
Yes your right but the other issue is most group have said they would need massive amounts of public money which does not play well.

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02-22-2017, 08:28 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Bruins1233 View Post
I'm almost certain that they are wrong.
Do you really think the people who proposed bids for Florida, Carolina and Arizona projected revenues to be as low as they are?
Absolutely not
There is generally is a huge difference between theoretical and actual.
Of course the people who proposed bids for those cities are going to over-state projected revenues to make it easier for arena deals, etc to go through.

Hamilton's study was conducted by the NHL, not by someone trying to bring a team to the city.

Hamilton has a fair sized metropolitan population and sits in the most populated area of Canada - which is the largest hockey market in the world.

Not surprising why it's such a lucrative market... all the more reason the Leafs and Sabres want to keep out any competition.

But I still don't anticipate Hamilton getting a team any time soon.

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02-22-2017, 08:33 AM
  #37
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Maybe too big a question, but compared to all the scenarios where other cities obtained two teams (rival leagues/quick relocations/etc), why has SW Ontario never had one?

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02-22-2017, 08:35 AM
  #38
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Maybe too big a question, but compared to all the scenarios where other cities obtained two teams (rival leagues/quick relocations/etc), why has SW Ontario never had one?
In large part because of MLSE.

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02-22-2017, 09:05 AM
  #39
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Yes in large part to the various Leafs and Sabres owners over the years.

Also, looking at how other additional teams came to be in existing markets, perfect storms took place in all of these.

Islanders 1972: The franchise was created to block out a rival league in setting up shop in then the new Nassau Coliseum. If Copps Coliseum or another NHL arena in Toronto co-existed with the WHA, it may have been a different story.

Devils 1982: The NHL was in rough shape with the dust of the merger still settling. The Flames moved to Calgary from Atlanta 2 years prior. There was nowhere else viable to move the Rockies at that time, plus it coincided with the Islanders dynasty so the optics of a 3rd team in the NY area made sense back then. Also, considering the next proposed relocation was the Blues to Saskatoon, the NHL was short on landing spots. Hamilton wasn’t ready for the Rockies back then either.

Ducks 1993: Then Kings Owner Bruce McNall has some financial difficulties and needed the cash. Disney’s expansion fee was cut in half and part given to the Kings. Nothing else additional was paid while any Hamilton fee would have to pay more. No Leafs or Sabres owner was hurting for cash back then. Plus the new arena going up from my understanding was originally intended to lure the Clippers and Sterling declined. Would things have been different if he moved to OC?

None of these scenarios ever applied to a second team in the GTA/Southern Ontario or anywhere else.


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02-22-2017, 09:14 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
The NHL is never coming to Hamilton, that's just a reality some around here need to grasp. I actually read a post on here the other day where the guy claimed a Hamilton NHL team would be #5 in revenues.

Man if that isn't delusional, I don't know what is.

Anyway they should go ahead an tear down that white elephant and put the land to better use. I'm sure a 5-6000 seat arena would work for the an OHL team to use before it relocates in a few years to be replaced by an AHL team which will last 5 or so years before relocating and being replaced by an OHL team again and the cycle will repeat as it always has in Hamilton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by berklon View Post
Actually, that was claimed by the NHL, so I'm not sure why you're laughing - unless you disagree with the studies the NHL has done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
Yes, I do disagree.


A bit of reference material is in order here.......but note that values in 2009 are not the same as they would be now.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1177122/


There is also testimony from a witness during the Arizona Coyotes bankruptcy trial which outlines what the NHL declared a franchise in Hamilton would potentially be worth. Should still be in the trial archives but I don't feel like digging through it to find it.


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02-22-2017, 09:30 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
Yes in large part to the various Leafs and Sabres owners over the years.

Also, looking at how other additional teams came to be in existing markets, perfect storms took place in all of these.

Islanders 1972: The franchise was created to block out a rival league in setting up shop in then the new Nassau Coliseum. If Copps Coliseum or another NHL arena in Toronto co-existed with the WHA, it may have been a different story.

Devils 1982: The NHL was in rough shape with the dust of the merger still settling. The Flames moved to Calgary from Atlanta 2 years prior. There was nowhere else viable to move the Rockies at that time, plus it coincided with the Islanders dynasty so the optics of a 3rd team in the NY area made sense back then. Also, considering the next proposed relocation was the Blues to Saskatoon, the NHL was short on landing spots. Hamilton wasnít ready for the Rockies back then either.

Ducks 1993: Then Kings Owner Bruce McNall has some financial difficulties and needed the cash. Disneyís expansion fee was cut in half and part given to the Kings. Nothing else additional was paid while any Hamilton fee would have to pay more. No Leafs or Sabres owner was hurting for cash back then. Plus the new arena going up from my understanding was originally intended to lure the Clippers and Sterling declined. Would things have been different if he moved to OC?

None of these scenarios ever applied to a second team in the GTA/Southern Ontario or anywhere else.
Thanks for this, but I was also even wondering when it comes to all leagues (NHL/MLB/NBA/NFL/MLS)

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02-22-2017, 10:15 AM
  #42
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Ontario and the feds have made it very clear we will not be funding pro arenas and stadiums now would they help a new 5000 seat major jr arena maybe.
Just down the highway the 50 million Meriden center in St. Catharines is paid for by large chunk of public funds. The civic fund, which comes from the province put in 17 million, gas tax from federal was transferred which was about 2 million, than you had some local bonds which were to be covered by building operations, and you have sponsorship money (6 million in naming rights for example).

If they were to build a non NHL arena, I think they would get money.

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02-22-2017, 10:19 AM
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Just down the highway the 50 million Meriden center in St. Catharines is paid for by large chunk of public funds. The civic fund, which comes from the province put in 17 million, gas tax from federal was transferred which was about 2 million, than you had some local bonds which were to be covered by building operations, and you have sponsorship money (6 million in naming rights for example).

If they were to build a non NHL arena, I think they would get money.
A small arena or stadium is one thing but would they fund a 20,000 seat arena unlikely with that said MLSE had bigger plans for BMO field renovations but the feds and Ontario were unwilling to hand over massive amount of money so it did not happen.

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02-22-2017, 10:33 AM
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Thanks for this, but I was also even wondering when it comes to all leagues (NHL/MLB/NBA/NFL/MLS)
It varies with the other leagues how multi-team markets came about but how I understand it goes...

MLB: It was two separate leagues that merged and how I understand with the NY Mets and LA Angels, there was a gentlemanís agreement on giving the OK to put a second team in the respective other teamís market

NFL: Again, 2 separate leagues that merged though territories donít work the same way since thereís no RSN money involved. Teams can pretty much move into another teamís market provided they have a stadium plan and a lack of one in the home market. Al Davis made sure of that.

NBA: New York became a 2 team market due to a merger. LA became a 2 team market as an existing owner decided to move. A by-product of Al Davis precedent.

MLS: Itís still a single entity so if the league sees fit to have a market with multiple teams, then it just comes down to a managing partner (no real owners), a stadium plan and $$$

None of this really happened or attempted to in terms of a team in Hamilton or GTA2.

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02-22-2017, 10:37 AM
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Just a lot of hearsay and speculation and not much facts. If in fact Hamilton is so lucrative then why hasn't there ever been a legitimate expansion bid?
Leafs are 31 miles away and buffalo 72

one of the old owners of the sabres said he would do everything he could to stop hamilton from getting a team(this was way back when it was a threat) and if and when the TO gets a second team--they are going to demand up to 1/2 the expansion fee for rights invasion

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02-22-2017, 10:39 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by varano View Post
Copps coliseum was built 30 years ago.

Hamilton made a bid in 1990.
Yeah they did, but they were unwilling to pay the whole $50 million up front and wanted to do it in installments so the NHL told them to **** off and awarded the team to Ottawa.
Quote:
In case you haven't been following, there have been numerous attempts at people trying to buy teams to relocate them to Hamilton over the past 15-20 years... All stopped by Bettman and the good ole boys.
Good.

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02-22-2017, 10:46 AM
  #47
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A bit of reference material is in order here.......but note that values in 2009 are not the same as they would be now.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1177122/


There is also testimony from a witness during the Arizona Coyotes bankruptcy trial which outlines what the NHL declared a franchise in Hamilton would potentially be worth. Should still be in the trial archives but I don't feel like digging through it to find it.

The Globe and Mail is hardly an unbiased source. It's still a whole lot of speculation predicated on many of if not most of the Toronto-Hamilton hockey fans who are for the most part Leaf fans becoming Hamilton fans. And as we've seen with the NJ Devils in the NY metro area it doesn't work out that way.

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02-22-2017, 10:55 AM
  #48
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Actually, that was claimed by the NHL, so I'm not sure why you're laughing - unless you disagree with the studies the NHL has done.
IT was claimed at a time when the CAN dollar was very high and the arena was being upgraded by the hairless slimeball. I doubt over a decade later they would still make that claim.


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02-22-2017, 11:01 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Bruins1233 View Post
I'm almost certain that they are wrong.
Do you really think the people who proposed bids for Florida, Carolina and Arizona projected revenues to be as low as they are?
Absolutely not
There is generally is a huge difference between theoretical and actual.
"In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they're different."

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02-22-2017, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by varano View Post
Copps coliseum was built 30 years ago.

Hamilton made a bid in 1990.

In case you haven't been following, there have been numerous attempts at people trying to buy teams to relocate them to Hamilton over the past 15-20 years... All stopped by Bettman and the good ole boys.
Wrong Bettman did not stop those. He was not employed by the NHL in 1990.

And the Hairless slime ball was trying to buy teams under the guise of keeping them in their home market. He pulled out of one deal, then he lied, broke his purchase agreement, and had interfered with a lease and relationship in his next adventure, then threw a hail mary pass on his last attempt. Blame him for Hamilton's failures recently.


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