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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Copps Coliseum is now officially a 'relic'

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Old
02-22-2017, 11:12 AM
  #51
Killion
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Originally Posted by Swarez View Post
Just down the highway the 50 million Meriden center in St. Catharines is paid for by large chunk of public funds. The civic fund, which comes from the province put in 17 million, gas tax from federal was transferred which was about 2 million, than you had some local bonds which were to be covered by building operations, and you have sponsorship money (6 million in naming rights for example).

If they were to build a non NHL arena, I think they would get money.
As the difficulties & obstacles in securing an NHL team for the market are now so well known, and in light of what's transpired with Copps/First Ontario over the past 30yrs youve just got to figure were probably looking at a Seattle like situation whereby the City & County are looking for the Leagues to guarantee them a team before deciding whether or not they'll back whatever project. Still indecisive despite Hansen dropping his P3 demands & going private. Hamilton like Seattle snake-bit. The Leagues of course expect Cities, entrepreneurs interested in securing teams to build it first & maybe they'll come, no guarantee's or at least thats what they claim publicly and it's just not true.

Harold Ballard, then owner of the Leafs & the CFL's Hamilton Tiger Cats needing public monies to renovate & upgrade the decrepit Ivor Wynne Stadium essentially offering up his support & encouragement for a Hamilton NHL Club, City enthusiastically figuring they were a shoe-in, charge ahead and build an arena, taking care of Ivor Wynne for Ballard & the Ti-Cats. There were other sentiments of encouragement from within the League emanating from the team levels however when push came to shove in 1990, Ron Joyce & Hamilton left whistling up a dark alley. Despite Balsillies efforts, not even close to realizing their objectives for the building (anchoring a hoped for downtown revitalization as well), sitting their incomplete (interior build, suites etc all haulted), essentially a shell for 30 years now.

When it opened, architecturally it was way ahead of its time & copied by other cities (Vancouver for eg) during the arena building booms of the 90's & 00's. I'm not buying the articles premise that its a "relic", far from it, however, it may have reached a point whereby it would be prudent to rather than spend at least $200M in bringing it up to speed, better to just build a new facility down on the waterfront site thats been talked about. However, without a comprehensive plan & guarantee's by the NHL backed by beyond Big Money, why even bother? Serious complicated & complex. You have land acquisition, construction costs, huge price tag to be paid to the NHL along with some major heavy duty indemnification payments to Toronto & Buffalo.... the whole dealeo seriously daunting. Very likely looking at over 1.2 Billion Dollars & thats being conservative.

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Old
02-22-2017, 11:17 AM
  #52
jason2020
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Killion

The issue is the feds will have is they have said no funding for pro arena's or stadiums now do they change that with the election in sight and if they say yes to Hamilton they really could not say no to Calgary and Ottawa.

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Old
02-22-2017, 11:56 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by jason2020 View Post
Killion

The issue is the feds will have is they have said no funding for pro arena's or stadiums now do they change that with the election in sight and if they say yes to Hamilton they really could not say no to Calgary and Ottawa.
Yeah, I wouldnt be counting on or even looking at receiving Federal dollars and I dont see that changing be it the Liberals, Tories or NDP, instead you'd be looking at the City & Queens Park, Provincial Govt.

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Old
02-22-2017, 12:38 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by berklon View Post
Of course the people who proposed bids for those cities are going to over-state projected revenues to make it easier for arena deals, etc to go through.

Hamilton's study was conducted by the NHL, not by someone trying to bring a team to the city.

Hamilton has a fair sized metropolitan population and sits in the most populated area of Canada - which is the largest hockey market in the world.

Not surprising why it's such a lucrative market... all the more reason the Leafs and Sabres want to keep out any competition.

But I still don't anticipate Hamilton getting a team any time soon.
They, I'm sure, thought they would at least break even prior to submitting the bid, these are business people, they do their research. However it was flawed.
Theoretical Potential=/=reality. It never does.
Example: there is more than enough Basketball Fans in NYC to support 2 or 3 teams, but in practice, the Nets are a trash franchise and are nowhere near the revenues of smaller (relative) market teams like Boston and Golden State (or even LA's second fiddle, the Clippers).
However, it seems it was way overblown.

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Old
02-22-2017, 12:49 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
A bit of reference material is in order here.......but note that values in 2009 are not the same as they would be now.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1177122/


There is also testimony from a witness during the Arizona Coyotes bankruptcy trial which outlines what the NHL declared a franchise in Hamilton would potentially be worth. Should still be in the trial archives but I don't feel like digging through it to find it.

Wondering if anyone can provide a link so I could dig myself?

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Old
02-22-2017, 05:55 PM
  #56
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The sad fact is Gary Bettman hates Canada & if he could get away with it he would move all the Canadian teams south of the border with the exception of the Leafs & Canadians .

I have been to First Ontario Center & it is not old decaying relic people make out to be since global spectrum took it over they have done a great job cleaning it up & as for renovation costs to bring it up to speed would be about $100 million not $200 million someone said on this board earlier .

There plans in works right in regards to renovating or replacing FirstOntario Center like as I said above it would cost $100 million in renovate the current arena the 2nd option is a plan to build a new arena & convention center just a couple blocks up the road on the property of a recently closed high school & as for the cost it will be around $350 million .

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Old
02-22-2017, 06:18 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
As the difficulties & obstacles in securing an NHL team for the market are now so well known, and in light of what's transpired with Copps/First Ontario over the past 30yrs youve just got to figure were probably looking at a Seattle like situation whereby the City & County are looking for the Leagues to guarantee them a team before deciding whether or not they'll back whatever project. Still indecisive despite Hansen dropping his P3 demands & going private. Hamilton like Seattle snake-bit. The Leagues of course expect Cities, entrepreneurs interested in securing teams to build it first & maybe they'll come, no guarantee's or at least thats what they claim publicly and it's just not true.

Harold Ballard, then owner of the Leafs & the CFL's Hamilton Tiger Cats needing public monies to renovate & upgrade the decrepit Ivor Wynne Stadium essentially offering up his support & encouragement for a Hamilton NHL Club, City enthusiastically figuring they were a shoe-in, charge ahead and build an arena, taking care of Ivor Wynne for Ballard & the Ti-Cats. There were other sentiments of encouragement from within the League emanating from the team levels however when push came to shove in 1990, Ron Joyce & Hamilton left whistling up a dark alley. Despite Balsillies efforts, not even close to realizing their objectives for the building (anchoring a hoped for downtown revitalization as well), sitting their incomplete (interior build, suites etc all haulted), essentially a shell for 30 years now.

When it opened, architecturally it was way ahead of its time & copied by other cities (Vancouver for eg) during the arena building booms of the 90's & 00's. I'm not buying the articles premise that its a "relic", far from it, however, it may have reached a point whereby it would be prudent to rather than spend at least $200M in bringing it up to speed, better to just build a new facility down on the waterfront site thats been talked about. However, without a comprehensive plan & guarantee's by the NHL backed by beyond Big Money, why even bother? Serious complicated & complex. You have land acquisition, construction costs, huge price tag to be paid to the NHL along with some major heavy duty indemnification payments to Toronto & Buffalo.... the whole dealeo seriously daunting. Very likely looking at over 1.2 Billion Dollars & thats being conservative.



Renovate FirstOntario Center - $100 Million + Team -$200 \ 500 million + $50 million pay off to the Sabres = $350 \ $650 million

New Arena - $350 million + Team - $200\$500 million + $50 million pay off to the Sabres = $600 \ $850 million

The 1.2 Billion you quoted is for a 2nd team in Toronto not Hamilton because Hamilton prices are a lot cheaper than Toronto prices also I don't think the Leafs would have any problem with a NHL. team in Hamilton & most likely wave there territory rights it's Buffalo that is in the way Hamilton getting an NHL. team not so much Toronto .

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Old
02-22-2017, 06:28 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
The sad fact is Gary Bettman hates Canada & if he could get away with it he would move all the Canadian teams south of the border with the exception of the Leafs & Canadians .

I have been to First Ontario Center & it is not old decaying relic people make out to be since global spectrum took it over they have done a great job cleaning it up & as for renovation costs to bring it up to speed would be about $100 million not $200 million someone said on this board earlier .

There plans in works right in regards to renovating or replacing FirstOntario Center like as I said above it would cost $100 million in renovate the current arena the 2nd option is a plan to build a new arena & convention center just a couple blocks up the road on the property of a recently closed high school & as for the cost it will be around $350 million .
It would be great if it were true, unfortunately it's not. Your "facts" are not consistent with the reality that Bettman actually was instrumental in keeping the Oilers from relocating and later relocating Atlanta to Winnipeg.

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02-22-2017, 06:59 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
Wrong Bettman did not stop those. He was not employed by the NHL in 1990.

And the Hairless slime ball was trying to buy teams under the guise of keeping them in their home market. He pulled out of one deal, then he lied, broke his purchase agreement, and had interfered with a lease and relationship in his next adventure, then threw a hail mary pass on his last attempt. Blame him for Hamilton's failures recently.
Notice how I put a space in between those two sentences. The 1990 bid is not related to my statement about bettman not allowing relocation.

MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 02-22-2017 at 10:18 PM. Reason: let's not do that
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Old
02-22-2017, 07:01 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
The sad fact is Gary Bettman hates Canada & if he could get away with it he would move all the Canadian teams south of the border with the exception of the Leafs & Canadians .

I have been to First Ontario Center & it is not old decaying relic people make out to be since global spectrum took it over they have done a great job cleaning it up & as for renovation costs to bring it up to speed would be about $100 million not $200 million someone said on this board earlier .

There plans in works right in regards to renovating or replacing FirstOntario Center like as I said above it would cost $100 million in renovate the current arena the 2nd option is a plan to build a new arena & convention center just a couple blocks up the road on the property of a recently closed high school & as for the cost it will be around $350 million .
Gary Bettman does not hate Canada. H e saved a couple teams when the dollar tanked last time.

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Old
02-22-2017, 07:04 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
It would be great if it were true, unfortunately it's not. Your "facts" are not consistent with the reality that Bettman actually was instrumental in keeping the Oilers from relocating and later relocating Atlanta to Winnipeg.
You might be right about the Oilers but as for the Jets coming back to Winnipeg That was not Gary Bettman doing that was David Thompson buying the thrashers & twisting Gary Bettman's arm so he could move them to Winnipeg & since David Thompson is the richest man in Canada there no way the NHL. was going to say no .

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Old
02-22-2017, 07:22 PM
  #62
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The plan in 2009 was to undergo north of $100 million of renovations before accommodating an NHL club.

It's been nearly 8 years since and the building is correspondingly 8 years older.

Of course it's a "relic" at this point.

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Old
02-22-2017, 07:23 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
As the difficulties & obstacles in securing an NHL team for the market are now so well known, and in light of what's transpired with Copps/First Ontario over the past 30yrs youve just got to figure were probably looking at a Seattle like situation whereby the City & County are looking for the Leagues to guarantee them a team before deciding whether or not they'll back whatever project. Still indecisive despite Hansen dropping his P3 demands & going private. Hamilton like Seattle snake-bit. The Leagues of course expect Cities, entrepreneurs interested in securing teams to build it first & maybe they'll come, no guarantee's or at least thats what they claim publicly and it's just not true.

Harold Ballard, then owner of the Leafs & the CFL's Hamilton Tiger Cats needing public monies to renovate & upgrade the decrepit Ivor Wynne Stadium essentially offering up his support & encouragement for a Hamilton NHL Club, City enthusiastically figuring they were a shoe-in, charge ahead and build an arena, taking care of Ivor Wynne for Ballard & the Ti-Cats. There were other sentiments of encouragement from within the League emanating from the team levels however when push came to shove in 1990, Ron Joyce & Hamilton left whistling up a dark alley. Despite Balsillies efforts, not even close to realizing their objectives for the building (anchoring a hoped for downtown revitalization as well), sitting their incomplete (interior build, suites etc all haulted), essentially a shell for 30 years now.

When it opened, architecturally it was way ahead of its time & copied by other cities (Vancouver for eg) during the arena building booms of the 90's & 00's. I'm not buying the articles premise that its a "relic", far from it, however, it may have reached a point whereby it would be prudent to rather than spend at least $200M in bringing it up to speed, better to just build a new facility down on the waterfront site thats been talked about. However, without a comprehensive plan & guarantee's by the NHL backed by beyond Big Money, why even bother? Serious complicated & complex. You have land acquisition, construction costs, huge price tag to be paid to the NHL along with some major heavy duty indemnification payments to Toronto & Buffalo.... the whole dealeo seriously daunting. Very likely looking at over 1.2 Billion Dollars & thats being conservative.
It's to the NHL's shame that this got mucked up so badly. Any other industry or business would be looking at where the best potential markets are, and just shaking their heads at why the NHL doesn't have a second team in Southern Ontario and a franchise in Quebec. Absolutely mind-boggling the money that's being lost, left on the table. Business school case study-level blunders.

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Old
02-22-2017, 08:15 PM
  #64
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Wondering if Jim Balsille will build an 18,000 seat entertainment complex made for hockey and potentially a landing spot for Toronto's second team.

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02-22-2017, 08:48 PM
  #65
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I think a team in Hamilton and even a team in Markham (yes both) would be financially successful.

Unfortunately QC has more hurdles.
Greater chance they would be eligible for RS.
Difficult to attract free agents, Hell, Canadian born NHL players are reluctant to play in English Canada (****ing spoiled *******s), it would be worse for QC.

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02-22-2017, 08:56 PM
  #66
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Ottawa's owner just pumped a bunch of money into the CTC and it is only 20 years old.

30 years is a long time for an arena without a lot of money for upgrades.

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02-22-2017, 09:04 PM
  #67
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Sad to hear about Copps Colosseum.

I still remember the Canada Cup 1987 Final.

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02-22-2017, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
You might be right about the Oilers but as for the Jets coming back to Winnipeg That was not Gary Bettman doing that was David Thompson buying the thrashers & twisting Gary Bettman's arm so he could move them to Winnipeg & since David Thompson is the richest man in Canada there no way the NHL. was going to say no .
It was more about Mark Chipman building a relationship with Gary Bettman dating back to the IHL - AHL merger in 2001 and running a successful franchise (Manitoba Moose). If it was only a matter of David Thomson's money, the NHL would have been back in Winnipeg much sooner than 2011. There is more to the process of getting an NHL franchise than money, otherwise, Jim Balsillie would have been successful in bringing a team to Hamilton and likewise Quebecor a team to Quebec City. I would not say that Bettman hates Canada at all and in fact recognizes how important the game is to our country and during his tenure has helped orchestrate a successful plan to ensure the viability of all Canadian franchises.

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02-22-2017, 09:28 PM
  #69
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Actually, that was claimed by the NHL, so I'm not sure why you're laughing - unless you disagree with the studies the NHL has done.
FWIW, the NHL had a substantial financial incentive to overestimate what a Hamilton franchise would be worth. It was part of the league's argument in court how large of a relocation fee the league should get if judge Redfield T Baum had approved Balsillie's attempt to a forced purchase/relocation. Balsillie was arguing for the court to approve the bankruptcy sale with no relocation fee.

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02-22-2017, 09:37 PM
  #70
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This is all pointless anyway, as there's no talk of anyone bringing a team to Hamilton.

Should probably add "Off-topic" to the thread title since this really has nothing to do with the NHL.

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02-23-2017, 12:28 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
The sad fact is Gary Bettman hates Canada & if he could get away with it he would move all the Canadian teams south of the border with the exception of the Leafs & Canadians .

I have been to First Ontario Center & it is not old decaying relic people make out to be since global spectrum took it over they have done a great job cleaning it up & as for renovation costs to bring it up to speed would be about $100 million not $200 million someone said on this board earlier .

There plans in works right in regards to renovating or replacing FirstOntario Center like as I said above it would cost $100 million in renovate the current arena the 2nd option is a plan to build a new arena & convention center just a couple blocks up the road on the property of a recently closed high school & as for the cost it will be around $350 million .
So it's a fact that Bettman hates Canada yet the last relocation was from the US to Canada. Why didn't he move the Bankrupt Senators? Why did allow the rules to be bent to save Edmonton?

What has he done to prevent any team from moving to Canada?

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Old
02-23-2017, 12:40 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
Hamilton rejected by Memorial Cup because First Ontario Centre is just too old ...

Hamilton Spectator: FirstOntario Centre: Face it, it’s now a relic

If the CHL feels this way, it's clear the NHL feels the same way ... have at it, folks ...
Why would they reject Hamilton? Even if the stadium is old it still can hold a decent amount of people. It would be sad if the OHL decides not to host the event in Hamilton only to have yet another one in London

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Old
02-23-2017, 12:42 AM
  #73
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just saw some online photos of the seating area of FirstOntario and it looks like they followed the same formula as old Rexall did before Rexall was mutilated with a 3rd deck, skyboxes and main floor luxury boxes. trust me when i say FO looks to be very dated and as it appears now has no chance of ever getting any NHL team.

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02-23-2017, 12:45 AM
  #74
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10k arena for 60 million is what they need.

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02-23-2017, 05:35 AM
  #75
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10k arena for 60 million is what they need.
Would be to big for them there avg 4000 a game but the other thing is a 10k arena would cost close to $140 million.

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