HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Copps Coliseum is now officially a 'relic'

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-23-2017, 05:39 AM
  #76
jason2020
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,953
vCash: 500
JMROWE

Both fixing up the current arena and building new major arena and convention centre have more or less been put on the backburner as both would need huge sums of public money from the feds and Ontario what likely will happen is a new 6000 seat arena will be built 100% funded by Hamilton.

jason2020 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 07:34 AM
  #77
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 9,629
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
So it's a fact that Bettman hates Canada yet the last relocation was from the US to Canada. Why didn't he move the Bankrupt Senators? Why did allow the rules to be bent to save Edmonton?

What has he done to prevent any team from moving to Canada?
Just because you have a preference for Item A over Item B does not mean you necessarily "hate" Item B, but it does mean you will always take Item A if given a choice. In the case of the Thrashers, the NHL had NO choice but to allow the Thrashers to move to Winnipeg. Call it conjecture, call it speculation, call it a biased opinion.... but if Las Vegas had been ready for an NHL league team at the same time Winnipeg was ready, and the NHL had a choice between the two when the Thrashers needed to be moved.... I defy anyone to convince me Bettman and the NHL would have picked Winnipeg over Las Vegas... not in a million years.

But back to the topic of Hamilton. IMO the fact that people want to call the arena a 'relic' doesn't matter... what it was and should have been called was a mistake. Building an arena in Hamilton for an NHL team without first working out a deal with the Sabres and the Leafs and figuring out the whole territorial rights issue... was a mistake. Just putting an arena up doesn't guarantee getting an NHL team. Most certainly when you are going to have to fight the Leafs to do it.

cbcwpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 08:19 AM
  #78
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
...IMO the fact that people want to call the arena a 'relic' doesn't matter... what it was and should have been called was a mistake. Building an arena in Hamilton for an NHL team without first working out a deal with the Sabres and the Leafs and figuring out the whole territorial rights issue... was a mistake. Just putting an arena up doesn't guarantee getting an NHL team. Most certainly when you are going to have to fight the Leafs to do it.
Right, but of course it was a different era & time, Harold Ballard actually on-side as Hamilton had buttered his bread pursuant to Ivor Wynne Stadium, home of his Ti-Cats so it was with considerable confidence that in building the arena they'd be a shoe in. I mean, even then, just look at the size of that untapped market? Who in their right mind wouldnt want to be mining that (billions left untapped as a result) gold? Made even more sense as the arena construction all part of a Hamilton Municipal Master Plan to revitalize the downtown core. With Ballards failing health in the late 80's & eventual demise, the drawbridge's lifted, the gates closed, locked & bolted. It certainly would have made for high theater had Ballard been healthy & spry, taking on Jacobs in what would have surely been a very public battle over Ron Joyces' application.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 08:36 AM
  #79
Jerkini
Registered User
 
Jerkini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
It's to the NHL's shame that this got mucked up so badly. Any other industry or business would be looking at where the best potential markets are, and just shaking their heads at why the NHL doesn't have a second team in Southern Ontario and a franchise in Quebec. Absolutely mind-boggling the money that's being lost, left on the table. Business school case study-level blunders.
You can't sell Hamilton to NBC or ESPN or any of the big "networks" down south. That's the simple fact of the matter. And in terms of local TV numbers, Hamilton and the surrounding area is already well represented with the Maple Leafs, so there's not much untapped potential with the Canadian TV market, which is already quite lucrative.

It's always been clear to me, at least with Bettman's NHL, that they has been focusing most of their attention on attracting US fans in order to parlay that to lucrative american broadcasting deals, which is why you see US teams in very unconventional markets and why Seattle is constantly brought up in expansion discussions. It has been a failure to date, but I don't see the NHL throwing in the towel in anytime soon. Hamilton will never happen. New arena or not.

Jerkini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 10:32 AM
  #80
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,157
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by berklon View Post
This is all pointless anyway, as there's no talk of anyone bringing a team to Hamilton.

Should probably add "Off-topic" to the thread title since this really has nothing to do with the NHL.
really? just because you haven't heard about it ...

GuelphStormer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 11:45 AM
  #81
Gnashville
Hated Sixer!
 
Gnashville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Crossville TN
Country: United States
Posts: 8,272
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Just because you have a preference for Item A over Item B does not mean you necessarily "hate" Item B, but it does mean you will always take Item A if given a choice. In the case of the Thrashers, the NHL had NO choice but to allow the Thrashers to move to Winnipeg. Call it conjecture, call it speculation, call it a biased opinion.... but if Las Vegas had been ready for an NHL league team at the same time Winnipeg was ready, and the NHL had a choice between the two when the Thrashers needed to be moved.... I defy anyone to convince me Bettman and the NHL would have picked Winnipeg over Las Vegas... not in a million years.

But back to the topic of Hamilton. IMO the fact that people want to call the arena a 'relic' doesn't matter... what it was and should have been called was a mistake. Building an arena in Hamilton for an NHL team without first working out a deal with the Sabres and the Leafs and figuring out the whole territorial rights issue... was a mistake. Just putting an arena up doesn't guarantee getting an NHL team. Most certainly when you are going to have to fight the Leafs to do it.
The "Bettman hates Canada" statement was sarcastic.

Winnipeg started working with the NHL in around 2006 and Bettman is on record as saying he wanted the Coyotes moved there if they had to move. They got their team by working with Bettman. It's not like he was dragged back there kicking and screaming. There were plenty of options for the Thrashers (including staying in Atlanta) but the league bypassed the 7 year no relocation rules to let the Jets return.


Hamilton should have applied for a recent expansion bid with a new building plan.

Gnashville is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 12:09 PM
  #82
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 9,629
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
The "Bettman hates Canada" statement was sarcastic.

Winnipeg started working with the NHL in around 2006 and Bettman is on record as saying he wanted the Coyotes moved there if they had to move. They got their team by working with Bettman. It's not like he was dragged back there kicking and screaming. There were plenty of options for the Thrashers (including staying in Atlanta) but the league bypassed the 7 year no relocation rules to let the Jets return.
There were no options in Atlanta. Name one potential owner that was willing to play in the arena as a tenant under ASG.

And the league by-passed nothing. ASG bought the team on Sept 21, 2003 with a 7 year /season no-relocation clause starting with and including the 2003-04 season. That 7 year/season agreement ended after the 2009-10 season, which was seven seasons. At that point they could move the team. TNSE bought the team on May 20, 2011 announced on May 31, 2011.

cbcwpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 12:13 PM
  #83
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by berklon View Post
This is all pointless anyway, as there's no talk of anyone bringing a team to Hamilton.

Should probably add "Off-topic" to the thread title since this really has nothing to do with the NHL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
really? just because you haven't heard about it ...
GS, come on. No one bid last time and there has not been a potential owner on scene since Jim. The next team will go to Kitchener if it ever happens.


As for the OP, this was coming. Interesting to see if they tear it down now.

Melrose Munch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 12:17 PM
  #84
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 9,629
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
Hamilton should have applied for a recent expansion bid with a new building plan.
The NHL wanted a non-refundable fee just to enter a bid. Why would anyone do that knowing the fight the are going to have on their hands over territory rights with the Leafs?

No one is going to try and put a team any where in Southern Ontario unless this issue is resolved first either by the NHL announcing where the teams can be located without issue or what the fee to the Leafs and/or Buffalo is going to be.

cbcwpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 12:21 PM
  #85
jason2020
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,953
vCash: 500
Gnashville

1)The expansion fee is $500 million
2)A new arena would be needed 100% private there is another $300-500 million
3)Fees to MLSE likely close to a billion
4)Fees to Buffalo $100 million plus

jason2020 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 12:40 PM
  #86
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,157
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
GS, come on. No one bid last time and there has not been a potential owner on scene since Jim. The next team will go to Kitchener if it ever happens.

As for the OP, this was coming. Interesting to see if they tear it down now.
a) noone submitted an expansion bid, that is true. but a package was requested and talks have taken place, before and after the expansion process. no, it is not balsillie.

b) KW is not an altogether wacky possibility ... economically, it is exploding now

GuelphStormer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 12:46 PM
  #87
jason2020
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,953
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
a) noone submitted an expansion bid, that is true. but a package was requested and talks have taken place, before and after the expansion process. no, it is not balsillie.

b) KW is not an altogether wacky possibility ... economically, it is exploding now
It would be risky by the time the rink is built major high tech companys could have pulled out or gone under.

jason2020 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 12:46 PM
  #88
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,157
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2020 View Post
Gnashville

1)The expansion fee is $500 million
2)A new arena would be needed 100% private there is another $300-500 million
3)Fees to MLSE likely close to a billion
4)Fees to Buffalo $100 million plus
im wondering if you know how utterly absurd this is ...

GuelphStormer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 12:50 PM
  #89
jason2020
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,953
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
im wondering if you know how utterly absurd this is ...
That has been the rumors of numbers for years the payment would be up to a billion.

jason2020 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 01:12 PM
  #90
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,157
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2020 View Post
That has been the rumors of numbers for years the payment would be up to a billion.
ugh. if anything, the "rumour" has been the total cost of the franchise could be as high as $1B, including purchase, relo-fee, arena costs as well as indemnification to the leafs and sabres.

noone anywhere, has ever said the territorial rights fee to be paid to mlse is $1B. that's nonsense.

GuelphStormer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 01:57 PM
  #91
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
a) noone submitted an expansion bid, that is true. but a package was requested and talks have taken place, before and after the expansion process. no, it is not balsillie.

b) KW is not an altogether wacky possibility ... economically, it is exploding now
We have no proof of this as of now. Kitchener has an edge at this point for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2020 View Post
That has been the rumors of numbers for years the payment would be up to a billion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
ugh. if anything, the "rumour" has been the total cost of the franchise could be as high as $1B, including purchase, relo-fee, arena costs as well as indemnification to the leafs and sabres.

noone anywhere, has ever said the territorial rights fee to be paid to mlse is $1B. that's nonsense.
1 billion was the total cost. Expansion fee won't be that much.

Melrose Munch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 02:02 PM
  #92
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
We have no proof of this as of now. Kitchener has an edge at this point for sure...
You live out in that area now dont you MM? Hamilton?... you hear or read anything about the NHL & First Ontario locally?

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 02:05 PM
  #93
King_Stannis
Registered User
 
King_Stannis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Erie PA, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,744
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
... I defy anyone to convince me Bettman and the NHL would have picked Winnipeg over Las Vegas... not in a million years.
I honestly think he would have, if only because I think of all the relocations that is one that he actually took personally. I believe he was talking about the "intriguing" possibility of Winnipeg coming back as early as 2007. In a sense I think Bettman knew he probably "owed" that one if it was at all possible. Of course it still needed a stable and savvy ownership group, which Winnipeg was fortunate to have.

Now, any other city over Las Vegas? Probably not.

King_Stannis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 02:19 PM
  #94
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
You live out in that area now dont you MM? Hamilton?... you hear or read anything about the NHL & First Ontario locally?
Yeah, I'm back for now. I have not hear anything in regards to Hamilton having a plan to get a team. It's sad, because I want GS to be right, and for Hamilton to get one, it would be a huge help to this city.

Melrose Munch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 02:26 PM
  #95
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Yeah, I'm back for now. I have not hear anything in regards to Hamilton having a plan to get a team. It's sad, because I want GS to be right, and for Hamilton to get one, it would be a huge help to this city.
Yeah absolutely. Hamiltons a great place though I see housing prices are really taking off, huge influx of Torontonians & people from elsewhere
driving up the prices which all in all bodes well for the future. Place still has a nice sense of community about it, very convenient location.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 03:13 PM
  #96
JMROWE
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,197
vCash: 500
I would not call First Ontario Center a relic not till 2030 then you can call an outdated relic but until then it is still a world class NHL. style arena that can host an NHL team at anytime within the next 13 years after that they need a new arena.

As for Buffalo & Toronto's territory rights are outdated & need to be updated since at lot has changed with time such as the GHA. (Hamilton) has grown to about 1.4 million & the Red Hill Expressway was completed which links the QEW. to the 401 allowing great access to southwestern Ontario market so most out of town people that come to see a Hamilton NHL. game would be coming from west & north of the city not in the GTA or Niagara region .

There is going to be a 2nd southern Ontario team within the next 10 years & it will be based in Hamilton because of the cities centralized location & the team won't be called Hamilton but Ontario since it will be a regional team for western parts of Ontario & by calling it Ontario it will make it easier to sell to the Americans .

JMROWE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 03:23 PM
  #97
GuelphStormer
Registered User
 
GuelphStormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Guelph, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,157
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
I would not call First Ontario Center a relic not till 2030 then you can call an outdated relic but until then it is still a world class NHL. style arena that can host an NHL team at anytime within the next 13 years after that they need a new arena.

As for Buffalo & Toronto's territory rights are outdated & need to be updated since at lot has changed with time such as the GHA. (Hamilton) has grown to about 1.4 million & the Red Hill Expressway was completed which links the QEW. to the 401 allowing great access to southwestern Ontario market so most out of town people that come to see a Hamilton NHL. game would be coming from west & north of the city not in the GTA or Niagara region .

There is going to be a 2nd southern Ontario team within the next 10 years & it will be based in Hamilton because of the cities centralized location & the team won't be called Hamilton but Ontario since it will be a regional team for western parts of Ontario & by calling it Ontario it will make it easier to sell to the Americans .
when was the last time you were in the arena? and in particular, up in the 200s? i may be the biggest proponent of a hammer team here, but even I have to acknowledge, it's nowhere close to being NHL suitable now. perhaps as an emergency dumping ground, but no, it's simply not up to standards.

the real question becomes, does anyone spend upwards of $200M to update it ... which is what it was designed for ... or do they put that towards a new bayfront facility?

given the fact that hamilton is now the hottest housing market in all of canada, surpassing toronto and even vancouver in terms of annual price increases - and thus property tax revenues - there are hints that the City could easily afford a brand new facility.

GuelphStormer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 03:24 PM
  #98
Gnashville
Hated Sixer!
 
Gnashville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Crossville TN
Country: United States
Posts: 8,272
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
There were no options in Atlanta. Name one potential owner that was willing to play in the arena as a tenant under ASG.

And the league by-passed nothing. ASG bought the team on Sept 21, 2003 with a 7 year /season no-relocation clause starting with and including the 2003-04 season. That 7 year/season agreement ended after the 2009-10 season, which was seven seasons. At that point they could move the team. TNSE bought the team on May 20, 2011 announced on May 31, 2011.
There were options Atlanta was never given a chance to save the team. There was also many US based options Milwaukee, Vegas, Portland, Houston, Indianapolis just to name a few, but the league perfered Winnipeg (which is fine).

Narrative before Jets: Bettman hates Canada and will never allow another team there.

Narrative after Jets: Bettman had no choice and was forced to allow the move. He will never allow it again!!

The truth is more likely any city that plays the game his (the BOG) way has a good chance at getting a team including Hamilton and Quebec.

Gnashville is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 03:41 PM
  #99
End on a Hinote
Registered Abuser
 
End on a Hinote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,834
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
The truth is more likely any city that plays the game his (the BOG) way has a good chance at getting a team including Hamilton and Quebec.
Not to digress, but this is exactly why I believe QC will get a team within the next few years. Quebecor is keeping their mouths shut and doing exactly what the BOG wants them to do.

End on a Hinote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2017, 05:42 PM
  #100
Nullus Reverentia
Registered User
 
Nullus Reverentia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The Periphery
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 17,782
vCash: 500
Been saying this for awhile. When I was in the construction industry I was familiar with a few of the firms in the GTA/GHA that would have bid for the contract to renovate FirstOntario and the cost was at likely double of what it was estimated to be when Balsillie was bidding. Hamilton will never get an NHL team as a result.

I'm pretty bullish on Kitchener because there just isn't the political will/capital to build a ~18,000 seat arena in the next decade, but outside the GTA they're honestly the only option in Ontario. And they would be a good option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2020 View Post
It would be risky by the time the rink is built major high tech companys could have pulled out or gone under.
Nah. It's stable enough now that there really is no danger of the major tech companies (Google, D2L, OpenText, just to name a few) pulling out. The unstable ones are the startups but they're not major employers/nor important regional investors. Blackberry is honesty the only unstable one left and I think they're mostly done with the layoffs. They're not very big anymore.

Nullus Reverentia is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:03 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.