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OT: When does a sports market become too saturated? (article about Twin Cities)

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Old
03-06-2017, 06:07 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieutenant Bookman View Post
"Real" Salt Lake is probably the most pathetic and egregious attempt at it.
I've always joked that Real (= Royal) represented the self-image of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

(Living in Idaho for 14 years too long + somehow following the old Salamander Letter case got way too informative for me. It's my semi-creepy fascination; given otherwise being generally sacrilegious/agnostic/pagan/whatever.)

Thing is, go back to the Garber quote.

Quote:
Were not the sport for the fan who likes all the other sports.
BTW, Garber's view seems to have changed after so many online polls and the like. Funny that. But when you request MLS go for its "own identity," did you mean "do it like the other sports"? There's really a conundrum here.

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Old
03-06-2017, 08:05 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by PCSPounder View Post
But when you request MLS go for its "own identity," did you mean "do it like the other sports"? There's really a conundrum here.
When I said "own identity" I was referring to within the realm of soccer itself, not compared to other American sports. Fact is, sporting culture is different in North America than it is in Europe. Gaining interest in their (Europe's) favorite sport does not mean that we have to lose sight of or deny that fact.

Living in Seattle, I guess I just find it funny when the same poeple who tailgate in the parking lot with their faces painted for Seahawks games decide to wear their scarves and hang out at the "pubs" before games sipping Guinness while singing supporters group songs and chants, because that's what they do in England. It just seems so artificial and forced, because quite frankly it is

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Old
03-06-2017, 09:22 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
A lot of good discussion on this topic. I'll point out that the MLS team will play in St. Paul, not in Minneapolis. You have a unique situation there that makes it inaccurate to refer to the region as "Minneapolis," like you might call the New York region "New York," and it would be understood. The geography/history is unique enough that after 90 years of every major league team in every league being named after a city, when the Twins moved from Washington in 1961, they were the first team in any major league to be named after a state. Mpls and St. Paul both wanted to host the team, and with populations roughly similar (a 9/7 ratio, not enough to call one dominant and name the region after it), the Twins owner had to relent and call them the Minnesota Twins. He had wanted to keep some nod to tradition and call them the Twin Cities Twins.

I think St. Paul will do a good job hosting the team, as it was pointed out above they have with the Wild. But of course, there will be a lot of fans and corporate support from both cities. Every market has its own uniquenesses, and that's a significant one here.
So let's say the Twin Cities is just one city, so the civic pride bump doesn't exist. Is this a stretch in a normal city situation?

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Old
03-06-2017, 09:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Lieutenant Bookman View Post
To me it isn't really an issue with there being too many in the sense of redundancy as much as that it just doesn't make sense. In England there are teams with tons of history, and "United" in the name implies that two or more local teams merged together and became a united club. As far as I know none of the U.S. teams with "United" in their names did that, it was rather a branding decision to make their team sound more real or authentic. It's one of my pet peeves with MLS. Give U.S./Canadian soccer it's own identity, don't try and force European norms into it. For some reason we decide to call teams "FC" when almost nobody locally calls it football. Then the whole "United" thing. "Real" Salt Lake is probably the most pathetic and egregious attempt at it. I don't dislike soccer, but for god's sake give MLS it's own identity and stop trying to make it something it isn't, it just seems forced and corny. /rant
Not what the topic is about but my quick take...

As a somewhat cultural geography nerd (sat in on uni classes without taking credit) I really dislike contrived culture like you see in MLS. I think there's a beauty in regional differences that happened naturally, as there's many different ways worldwide to refer to soccer, for their various reasons. We're not the only country where the use of a term besides football happened naturally. I mean, I love that out of all the translations of baseball that just become beisbol/bejsbol/etc., that the Dutch came up with honkbal.

It's just really hard for me to put myself in a mindset where I like something like TFC or FC Dallas or Real Salt Lake, so I dont see how MLS fans like it. At the same time, I get the feeling a big part of the appeal of MLS fandom is that it does act as a very distinct rejection of the usual Big4. Garber's quote just makes me believe that more, as well as lurking r/MLS and seeing some of the thoughts there. Seems like more of the league's supporters, love that they love soccer, when compared to other fandoms.

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Old
03-06-2017, 09:45 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Yes, Twin Cities can support an MLS team. We are moving away from general sports fans and to specialized sports fans.

If anything, it might hurt the Twins and Vikings. Wild and Timberwolves won't be impacted much.

Minnesota Gopher hockey and Minnesota Wild have never had a problem.

Minnesota Gopher football lack of success has less to do with the Vikings and more to do with on the field play for decades.
I disagree, the NFL and NBA are completely isolated from local market pressures due to their national TV contracts. The Timberwolves yearly share of the national TV contract will almost entirely pay the player salaries for the whole team.

MLB, NHL, MLS are all heavily reliant on local TV contracts and attendance to cover costs and make money.

While hockey is very popular in Minnesota it is naive to think it is completely immune from attendance issues, I mean Norm Green made a solid enough case to get one team moved already.

We need to see what the sports market looks like after years of a competitive Timberwolves team and mediocre/bad Wild team before I'll be sold on the Wild being safe from market competition.

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Old
03-06-2017, 09:49 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
Not what the topic is about but my quick take...

As a somewhat cultural geography nerd (sat in on uni classes without taking credit) I really dislike contrived culture like you see in MLS. I think there's a beauty in regional differences that happened naturally, as there's many different ways worldwide to refer to soccer, for their various reasons. We're not the only country where the use of a term besides football happened naturally. I mean, I love that out of all the translations of baseball that just become beisbol/bejsbol/etc., that the Dutch came up with honkbal.

It's just really hard for me to put myself in a mindset where I like something like TFC or FC Dallas or Real Salt Lake, so I dont see how MLS fans like it. At the same time, I get the feeling a big part of the appeal of MLS fandom is that it does act as a very distinct rejection of the usual Big4. Garber's quote just makes me believe that more, as well as lurking r/MLS and seeing some of the thoughts there. Seems like more of the league's supporters, love that they love soccer, when compared to other fandoms.
Okay those supporters who bang drums and wave flags and stuff is like 10% maybe of the fan base, the other 90% is Soccer moms who roll up in their minivans with 2 midfielders a striker and the goalie of a 7th grade rec team. It's like a AAA Baseball game or AHL game, its a fun family night out for most in attendance.

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Old
03-07-2017, 05:55 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
Probably a different topic, but how has this worked out in Europe and the way tv is handled there?

Just a feeling but I feel soccer and rugby have benefitted more from the opening up than American sports have.
Not European but lived there and I watch a ton of international soccer.

I could see Europeans having a lot of trouble getting excited about North American sports for a few reasons:

1) closed systems. Every major N American League is closed circuit. Same 30 teams every year with a near meaningless reg season and then playoffs. In Europe almost all leagues are open and teams play themselves in and out through promotion and relegation every year. You get at least three fresh opponents every season. Not to mention you can qualify from your national league to a variety of international competitions (Europa League, Champions League). Creates a wide diversity of potential interesting matchups. I could imagine exact same matchups year after year in a N American League seeming boring by comparison.

2) salary cap means no super teams like you see in Europe

3) fan culture probably seems boring in N America - no fan chants singing etc... I see a lot of sitting on hands in N American sports on tv.

Meanwhile I can see the opposite of N Americans being fascinated by the above - which is true for me for example.

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Old
03-09-2017, 11:02 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by End on a Hinote View Post
After only six years it already looks like the Whitecaps are about to eclipse the BC Lions as the #2 favorite team in Vancouver.
The Montreal Impact (joined the MLS later than the Whitecaps) already surpasses the Montreal Alouettes as the number two sports team in Montreal.

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Old
03-12-2017, 10:26 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by FuriousSenator View Post
Not European but lived there and I watch a ton of international soccer.

I could see Europeans having a lot of trouble getting excited about North American sports for a few reasons:

1) closed systems. Every major N American League is closed circuit. Same 30 teams every year with a near meaningless reg season and then playoffs. In Europe almost all leagues are open and teams play themselves in and out through promotion and relegation every year. You get at least three fresh opponents every season. Not to mention you can qualify from your national league to a variety of international competitions (Europa League, Champions League). Creates a wide diversity of potential interesting matchups. I could imagine exact same matchups year after year in a N American League seeming boring by comparison.

2) salary cap means no super teams like you see in Europe

3) fan culture probably seems boring in N America - no fan chants singing etc... I see a lot of sitting on hands in N American sports on tv.

Meanwhile I can see the opposite of N Americans being fascinated by the above - which is true for me for example.
Go to a college football game at a major university. You will see NA sports fans in a better environment. Although it that is declining too.

PA systems, megatrons, commercial breaks, and manufactured hype are the death good stadium culture. At some point US stadium experiences stopped being about what is actually happening in the game.

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Old
03-12-2017, 12:46 PM
  #60
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Going off the Forbes list which got split off into a separate topic, Minneapolis appears to be in the middle of the pack as far as being overextended. It's a pretty wealthy market but what works against it is its size and the expense of tickets.

I tend to agree with the argument that MLS kind of attracts a different sort of sports fan that isn't already spending their money on the Twins, for instance. Plus soccer tends to be a cheaper sport in general, so I'm not sure MNUFC will have too negative an impact on the market.

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Old
03-14-2017, 09:47 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
MLS main problem is that it isnt even a top-10 soccer league in the world. Maybe fun to go to but Euro soccer leagues are already all over US TV.
This. MLS is going to be a fringe league unless and until they put out a world class product/team, and that is big business so it'll be a while.

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Old
03-14-2017, 10:20 AM
  #62
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This. MLS is going to be a fringe league unless and until they put out a world class product/team, and that is big business so it'll be a while.
MLS has both money and geography going against it. The best soccer players in the world want massive wages, injury protection, short travel, and the ability to play in the Champions League. Add in politics of club protectionism on top of that.

However, that doesn't mean that the MLS can't be the top league in the Americas. It should be the top league for young talent in this hemisphere that want more money and higher exposure. Make MLS clubs a first class ticket to the top clubs in Europe.

Teams should be made up a mix of top talent from South and Central America, US home-grown players, and aging stars from Europe.

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Old
03-14-2017, 10:48 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by HisIceness View Post
Same.

Atlanta is the one I'm more curious about as to whether or not it works long-term.

Also OT here, but 3 teams in the MLS with 'United' in the name, come on
Like Manchester United, Sheffield United, and West Ham United? Or Manchester City, Swansea City, Hull City, and Leicester City?

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Old
03-14-2017, 11:35 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Go to a college football game at a major university. You will see NA sports fans in a better environment. Although it that is declining too.

PA systems, megatrons, commercial breaks, and manufactured hype are the death good stadium culture. At some point US stadium experiences stopped being about what is actually happening in the game.
Sure, but we also cheer when things actually happen during gameplay. I like soccer, but to act like there isnt a lot of down time or dead space if you will is disengenuous. Also only the few premier teams (and a lot of the EPL/Bundesliga teams) have those crazy crowds. Most everywhere else is less than half full

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Old
03-14-2017, 12:56 PM
  #65
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I think we've beaten this one to death at this point, and will have yet another soccer/football thread.

We can pick up market issues and saturation in Hoek's thread:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=2202013

Thanks.

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