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Vezina, who has the edge?

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Old
03-06-2017, 10:18 AM
  #76
Chrisinroch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
So with the Holtby vs Dubnyk debate, is this where the East (or at least the Metro) finally gets to rub the quality of competition argument in the West's face? Because right now, the East has 5 of the top 6 teams in the NHL in GF/GP, and three of those are Holtby's divisional opponents. If people knock Holtby for having strong teammates, isn't it also fair to acknowledge him for facing strong opponents?
This is actually a pretty cogent argument.

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Old
03-06-2017, 10:31 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Grasshopperking View Post
lol

Makes thread to discuss Vezina candidates

Dismisses any opinion that differs from his own

Has 11 posts

Anyone who has Holtby outside of the top 3 doesn't deserve to have their opinions taken seriously..

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03-06-2017, 10:37 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
Then how do you justify putting Bob (.929) and Price (.922) ahead of Dubnyk (.933) and Holtby (.931)? Of the four main categories - Sv%, GAA, Wins, and SO - Bob and Price tie or trail Dubnyk and Holtby in every one. In Price's case, it's not even close.
I dont havr to justify this because ive never said this.

I overlook stats more often than not.

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Old
03-06-2017, 11:14 AM
  #79
Zoidberg Jesus
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
I dont havr to justify this because ive never said this.

I overlook stats more often than not.
Yes, you did say that. Those are direct quotes. I feel like I'm talking to the black knight...

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03-06-2017, 11:16 AM
  #80
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If you believe that GSAA is the best indicator we have of measuring goalies across the league, then it's not even close.

Dubnyk 29.63 goals over 50 games. .59/gm
Holtby 23.23 goals over 49 games. .47/gm
Bob. 23.16 goals over 51 games. .45/gm

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Old
03-06-2017, 11:57 AM
  #81
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Irrelevant, goalies today are "too good"(leaning towards it being more of a "too easy" situation). You could take any(tall) SHL goalie for instance and place on a NHL team and chances are like 1/30 that he would win the Vezina.

No skill required. So the Vezina is basically a Selke/Lady Byng level of award.

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03-06-2017, 12:00 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
Yes, you did say that. Those are direct quotes. I feel like I'm talking to the black knight...
Im going to refrain from attacking your person.

I said that the media cared about save percentagr over any other stats, which was why Holtby had no real case. Dub is on the worst team and he has a better save %, Bob and Price (Lehner also) are carrying their teams, thus he has no argument for the "lesser" stats either.

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03-06-2017, 12:15 PM
  #83
123TripleDoge
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Originally Posted by Chrisinroch View Post
This is actually a pretty cogent argument.
But the West is actually better than they look. They just look bad because they all keep losing to Dubnyk

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Old
03-06-2017, 12:19 PM
  #84
Dr John Carlson
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Originally Posted by psycat View Post
You could take any(tall) SHL goalie for instance and place on a NHL team and chances are like 1/30 that he would win the Vezina.
You're going to need to show your calculations on this one.

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03-06-2017, 12:24 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Im going to refrain from attacking your person.

I said that the media cared about save percentagr over any other stats, which was why Holtby had no real case. Dub is on the worst team and he has a better save %, Bob and Price (Lehner also) are carrying their teams, thus he has no argument for the "lesser" stats either.
The media doesn't even vote on the Vezina.

The fact that Holtby is second in SV% for starters means your argument makes 0 sense.

Keep hanging on to that one great Price season buddy.

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03-06-2017, 12:44 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Carlzner View Post
The media doesn't even vote on the Vezina.

The fact that Holtby is second in SV% for starters means your argument makes 0 sense.

Keep hanging on to that one great Price season buddy.
That's kind of an interesting point (that I knew, but didn't really think about from this angle).

I wonder if Dubnyk being the only real candidate from the West would benefit him come voting time. West GMs would have seen him much more, where east GMs have 2 (3 if you count price) candidates that they've seen more often.

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03-06-2017, 12:59 PM
  #87
Zoidberg Jesus
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Im going to refrain from attacking your person.

I said that the media cared about save percentagr over any other stats, which was why Holtby had no real case. Dub is on the worst team and he has a better save %, Bob and Price (Lehner also) are carrying their teams, thus he has no argument for the "lesser" stats either.
So if I've got this right, you're saying that being perceived as carrying your team is the first criteria, followed by save percentage, and the gap between the importance of those two criteria is big enough that Carey Price is ahead of Dubnyk despite having a .011 lower Sv%?

I'm curious how you'd explain Holtby's Vezina win last season then. There were plenty of goalies within .011 of him on worse teams.

Or are you saying the rankings you posted were your own personal opinion, rather than what you think the NHL GMs (they vote on the Vezina, not the media) would choose?

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03-06-2017, 01:20 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlzner View Post
The media doesn't even vote on the Vezina.

The fact that Holtby is second in SV% for starters means your argument makes 0 sense.

Keep hanging on to that one great Price season buddy.
I know the GM's vote on the Vezina. It's still decided upon mediatic attention, though.

As for Price, in his wort season in four years, (This year), he's .922 goaltender Just goes to show how "bad" he is.

For reference, Holtby's Vezina run last year, was .922

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
So if I've got this right, you're saying that being perceived as carrying your team is the first criteria, followed by save percentage, and the gap between the importance of those two criteria is big enough that Carey Price is ahead of Dubnyk despite having a .011 lower Sv%?

I'm curious how you'd explain Holtby's Vezina win last season then. There were plenty of goalies within .011 of him on worse teams.

Or are you saying the rankings you posted were your own personal opinion, rather than what you think the NHL GMs (they vote on the Vezina, not the media) would choose?

Yeah, no, that's not what I said.

But yes, this is my opinion on the rankings, not what I think the GM's will vote on. GM's don't exactly have time to watch every goaltender night in and night out, and I still bet if they could choose one goaltender as the best in the game, they'd probably still say it's Price.


(I said mediatic attention was on Dubnyk, and his .933+ save percentage, they're looking for a good story, and that if you want to make the statistical argument, Dubnyk still probably has the superior case than Holtby, and if you wanna make the "carry a team" case, Bob, Price and Lehner have the superior cases to Holtby. So what does it leave for Holtby ?

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Old
03-06-2017, 01:59 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Yeah, no, that's not what I said.

But yes, this is my opinion on the rankings, not what I think the GM's will vote on. GM's don't exactly have time to watch every goaltender night in and night out, and I still bet if they could choose one goaltender as the best in the game, they'd probably still say it's Price.
I apologize for not correctly guessing that you were posting your own personal ranking in a thread where everyone else was discussing who they thought would win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
(I said mediatic attention was on Dubnyk, and his .933+ save percentage, they're looking for a good story, and that if you want to make the statistical argument, Dubnyk still probably has the superior case than Holtby, and if you wanna make the "carry a team" case, Bob, Price and Lehner have the superior cases to Holtby. So what does it leave for Holtby ?
It leaves him statistically ahead of Bob and Price, because I've never seen much evidence that goalies have the quality of their teams held against them in the Vezina voting (again, playing for the President's Trophy winner didn't stop Holtby from running away with the vote last year), and with a substantial lead on the rest of the pack in GAA and SOs. If the season ended today I'd expect Dubnyk to win by a slim margin, but Holtby's been the hotter goalie lately, and I'd be willing to bet he has the edge in Sv% by the end of the season.

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03-06-2017, 02:21 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
So with the Holtby vs Dubnyk debate, is this where the East (or at least the Metro) finally gets to rub the quality of competition argument in the West's face? Because right now, the East has 5 of the top 6 teams in the NHL in GF/GP, and three of those are Holtby's divisional opponents. If people knock Holtby for having strong teammates, isn't it also fair to acknowledge him for facing strong opponents?
Yes, it's a major factor this year when you have candidates so close to each other.

It's also notable that the Wild has the easiest schedule in the NHL this year, and has played the easiest schedule to this point.

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03-06-2017, 03:30 PM
  #91
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The quality of Dubnyk's work is the main reason for Wild's success. He's been spectacular. The number may or may not support the Vezina for him, but the eye test is unmistakable. Bob has been great as well, and would probably win the Vezina in any other year.

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03-06-2017, 03:48 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
Yes, it's a major factor this year when you have candidates so close to each other.

It's also notable that the Wild has the easiest schedule in the NHL this year, and has played the easiest schedule to this point.
based on what?

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03-06-2017, 03:51 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
based on what?
Brutal conference.

I think Holtby has played the Penguins alone more times this season than Dubnyk has faced an top-5 team.

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03-06-2017, 03:58 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by trick9 View Post
Brutal conference.

I think Holtby has played the Penguins alone more times this season than Dubnyk has faced an top-5 team.
I won't take the time to compare schedules, but I do know for sure that Dubnyk is 2-0 against the Penguins this season.

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03-06-2017, 04:08 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by trick9 View Post
Brutal conference.

I think Holtby has played the Penguins alone more times this season than Dubnyk has faced an top-5 team.
i really couldn't care less about the wah wah hard schedule argument because the Wild have in the past 5 years been near the top in back to backs, travel, best conference, etc and no slack was given.

my issue was with the "in the NHL" part. I'd love to see some definitive metric that tells us all the Wild had the easiest schedule in the NHL. No one really gave a **** a couple years ago when the Central was dominant and Dubnyk didn't win.

honestly, good for you if Holtby wins. he's an excellent goalie having an excellent year.

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03-06-2017, 04:30 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
Holtby is good? So, the best team can not have the best goaltender? That's just....
Holtby has not lost a game in regulation in 20 games. You don't think he stole some games in there? You don't think that he has been a major factor in wins?

Further. The had that streak of blowing out opponents. 5-0 is a hard thing to do many times. 5-0 becomes easily 5-2 and the difference in the stat showing between 5-0 and 5-2 makes a difference. In Holtby's case it means that he is just good. Behind, ahead, way ahead. His record with a one goal lead in the final 10 minutes is ridiculous.

The Vezina is not like the Jack Adams where the coach of the best team almost never is coach of the year. The best teams are often the best teams because they have the best goalie.
when your team pots six, wins for a goalie is kind of meaningless, no ?

Price wont win, wont even get considered but while the habs were swooning leading to a lot of his losses, the habs scored 2 or fewer goals 6 times over a 10 game stretch. the average goals per game was something like 1.31. that's razor thin margins.

That isnt to say that holtby isnt good ( he will probably win) but on the habs under therrien one bad goal or one bad bounce meant a likely loss. We have been so dependent on super exceptional goaltending to win games that even if we got good to very good goaltending we still often ended up on the short end of the stick.

I'm sure that if al montoya played behind a team that scored as often as the caps did, he would have more wins that price. does that make him a better goalie than price ? no, no it does not.

price has clearly had his up and his downs this season. it still beleive that when he is on the up ( like he is currently) there is no other player in the league who is more single handedly capable of winning games. even then he wont be considerted for the vezina and I think that troubles him not one bit.

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03-06-2017, 04:55 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by State of Hockey View Post
Yes, it's a major factor this year when you have candidates so close to each other.

It's also notable that the Wild has the easiest schedule in the NHL this year, and has played the easiest schedule to this point.
Show us on the doll where the Wild touched you.

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03-06-2017, 05:00 PM
  #98
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Show us on the doll where the Wild touched you.
My suggestion to you (as I an countless others have done) is to add him to your ignore list.

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Old
03-06-2017, 05:02 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
So if I've got this right, you're saying that being perceived as carrying your team is the first criteria, followed by save percentage, and the gap between the importance of those two criteria is big enough that Carey Price is ahead of Dubnyk despite having a .011 lower Sv%?

I'm curious how you'd explain Holtby's Vezina win last season then. There were plenty of goalies within .011 of him on worse teams.

Or are you saying the rankings you posted were your own personal opinion, rather than what you think the NHL GMs (they vote on the Vezina, not the media) would choose?
He got it on wins last season. Bishop was better. Holtby set the wins record. This year Holtby's put up much better stats, but again, he's playing on a powerhouse. Price will not have that luxery if he stays in Montreal.

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03-06-2017, 05:08 PM
  #100
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based on what?
Uh, winning percentage, of course. You think this stuff against the Wild is all made up out of thin air?

As of today, the Capitals are playing the 7th toughest schedule and have played the 11th toughest so far. Also as of today, the Blue Jackets have the 2nd toughest schedule and have also played the 2nd toughest. Their schedule gets a lot easier the rest of the way.

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