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2009- If 8 Seed Anaheim got by Detroit, do they beat the Blackhawks/Penguins?

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03-06-2017, 01:05 AM
  #1
ChrisK97
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2009- If 8 Seed Anaheim got by Detroit, do they beat the Blackhawks/Penguins?

Considering how tight that 7 game series was with the Ducks and Red Wings (Game 1 Lidstrom late regulation winner, Game 2 3OT, Game 3's controversial premature blown whistle, Detroit showing mettle in game 4 despite trailing in the series 2-1, Game 6 sees Anaheim rise up on the brink of elimination, a tremendous game 7 that could have gone either way) and the run Anaheim had been on since March, could they have followed in the footsteps of the 2006 Oilers and soon-to-be footsteps of the 2012 Kings and made it to the Cup Finals?

They would have faced a very young Chicago Blackhawks team that was not very seasoned, but also had a different look from future Hawks teams (still had Havlat/Khabibulin/Cam Barker).

Chicago seemed a bit overwhelmed against Detroit- not completely though, with 3 of the games going to OT- if anything getting schooled and experienced by the last truly great Red Wings team.

But how might things have gone against Anaheim?

Chicago would have had Home Ice Advantage, but Anaheim wasn't exactly inexperienced by comparison (Lot of the 2007 Cup core still in place, Pronger's last Hurrah w/Ducks, Jonas Hiller doing a Matt Murray playoff impression).

And had they gotten by Detroit, how do the Penguins fare against either of these teams in the Cup Finals?

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03-06-2017, 02:59 AM
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Paul4587
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I think they easily beat the Hawks. Against the Pens it depends how healthy the Ducks are. Detroit was battered and bruised from the series against the Ducks and IIRC Datsyuk and Lidstrom were playing with injuries in the cup finals (Sharp speared Lidstrom in the balls leading to testicular surgery for Lidstrom in the WCF). I think a healthy Detroit would have taken the finals series in 5 games. I think if Ducks are healthy they would have had a similar result too, the Ducks D was absolutely stacked that playoff year and Getzlaf was in beast mode.

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03-06-2017, 11:33 AM
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Ishdul
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No to both.

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03-06-2017, 12:01 PM
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Terry Yake
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i think they very well could have beat the hawks in a 7 game series. that hawks team was still inexperienced and the ducks solid D could have caused problems. hiller was playing out of his mind that postseason and he probably would have kept it up against the hawks

against the pens would be a toss up. it would come down to whether or not the ducks could shut down at least one of crosby and malkin. although that pens team definitely had its weak spots

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03-06-2017, 12:12 PM
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EDIT: After looking at the underlying numbers, changing my answer. No, they don't beat either.

Both PIT and CHI were outperforming them by a healthy margin heading into the playoffs that season.

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03-06-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JaegerDice View Post
EDIT: After looking at the underlying numbers, changing my answer. No, they don't beat either.

Both PIT and CHI were outperforming them by a healthy margin heading into the playoffs that season.
Except that doesn't always matter come playoff time.

I thought the Ducks were fortunate to push it to 7 games against Detroit. They had a triple OT game there where they were outplayed and another game where Hossa tied it up with the goalie pulled, only to have the ref pull the "intent to blow whistle" crap. Still, the Ducks were always a tough out for Detroit because of their style of play.

I think they beat Chicago. The Hawks were not ready that year. The Wings played without Datsyuk and Lidstrom most of that series and still won in 5. Could have been a sweep if the ref didn't throw Kronwall out of game 4 for killing poor Martin Havlat. The Ducks, just like Detroit, would have the edge in experience. Chicago had Cristobal Huet in net from what I remember at the end of the series. They're not going anywhere with that.

The Pens could be a different story. They were a hungry team from losing in the Finals the year before. You have to figure they still get the NHL and the refs on their side so that Sidney boy could get his first Cup. Personally, I think a healthy Ducks team would make a competitive series, but I likely have to give the Penguins the edge. They'd be the younger and fresher team.

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03-06-2017, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JaegerDice View Post
EDIT: After looking at the underlying numbers, changing my answer. No, they don't beat either.

Both PIT and CHI were outperforming them by a healthy margin heading into the playoffs that season.
Their record looks worse than the team actually was because of the goaltending drama. Giguere never recovered after his father's death (going from .913 in 22 games to .886 in his final 24 games), resulting in Jonas Hiller taking the net. And he was really, really good. It was the least shocking 1 vs. 8 upset that I can remember, even if Anaheim had awful Center depth.

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03-06-2017, 05:11 PM
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Chicago, yes. Pittsburgh, that's a tougher one. I think it would have been a tight series, but it's tough to go against the team that actually won. What if's only go so far, and the Pens got it done.

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03-06-2017, 05:25 PM
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If the 2009 Ducks got by Detroit in the second round I think its a toss up between Anaheim and Chicago. The 2009 Ducks were probably one of the strongest 8 seeds of all time if you look at the roster, and was only two years removed from a Stanley Cup. On the other hand you have the young, up and coming Blackhawks who are on their first serious playoff run with that core. Is this one of those cases where the young team needs to lose a series to a veteran squad to learn how to win in the future, or were they ready to win right away? I would give the slight edge to Chicago because the would have home ice in game 7, as I think its a 7 game series if Anaheim and Chicago played that year. I don't think either team would beat the Penguins that year but they would definitely have a good shot, and it would be an interesting Stanley Cup Final either way.

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03-06-2017, 05:58 PM
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they would've beaten chicago, lose to pens in 6

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03-06-2017, 08:23 PM
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Yeah they would have beaten Chicago. The reason I say this is because the Hawks are not "there" yet. Remember, they didn't have Hossa until the following year and this is a very green team who we all knew had good things coming but I never thought in 2009 they would have a chance against the Red Wings, and I think the same can be said for the Ducks.

As for the final, I don't think the Ducks are able to keep Crosby contained the way that Zetterberg and the Lidstrom/Rafalski combo did. I don't think you can do much better than that. Maybe Pronger is the wild card in what he could do to Crosby to get under his skin or even take a liberty here or there when the ref isn't looking. But then again, how do you contain the other star center - Malkin? The Red Wings didn't let him run amok, but they didn't keep him off the scoresheet either (8 points in 7 games). I just can't see the Ducks beating the Pens.

By the way, has there ever been an 8th seeded team as good as the 2009 Ducks?

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03-06-2017, 09:39 PM
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By the way, has there ever been an 8th seeded team as good as the 2009 Ducks?
2012 kings

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03-06-2017, 11:03 PM
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As for the final, I don't think the Ducks are able to keep Crosby contained the way that Zetterberg and the Lidstrom/Rafalski combo did. I don't think you can do much better than that. Maybe Pronger is the wild card in what he could do to Crosby to get under his skin or even take a liberty here or there when the ref isn't looking. But then again, how do you contain the other star center - Malkin?
Well... they had Scott Niedermayer and Francois Beauchemin on another pairing too. And despite the issues with Giguere, they still let in fewer goals in the season than Detroit.

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03-06-2017, 11:32 PM
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Agree with the idea that they would have beaten Chicago. I don't think it would have been that close either. Chicago was still too green and Anaheim had a lot of winning experience in key places of that lineup.

I think the Finals vs Pitt would have been a coin flip.

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03-06-2017, 11:55 PM
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The one case I could make for Chicago over Anaheim is that the Ducks weren't quite as experienced as Detroit would have been AND the Hawks would have had home-ice advantage. Anaheim was experienced, but not Detroit experienced and didn't have quite that same caliber and aura.

Plus, if they couldn't be too green against Calgary/Vancouver teams that weren't exactly playoff neophytes, and Anaheim wasn't quite as skilled as Detroit.... I think you're selling those Hawks short.

Kind of like Pittsburgh the year before who wasn't supposed to crash the SCF party, maybe Chicago gets there and Pittsburgh does to them what Detroit had done unto them.

As for Huet- Khabibulin got hurt in game 3 of that series. If they play the Ducks, I don't think that happens.

Looking at the ANA schedule, amazing to think the Ducks played the way they did from October-February yet ended up arguably a goal here or there from playing in June.

And go figure, they trade Pronger that summer.

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03-07-2017, 10:10 AM
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Terry Yake
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the ducks lack of a real 2C was their biggest flaw that playoffs

their center depth in general was awful but you won't have much playoff success with guys like ryan carter and a couple old guys like niedermayer and marchant as the other C's

sad part is that murray did nothing to fix this after he traded mcdonald in '07 up until they got kesler a couple years ago

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03-07-2017, 10:31 AM
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It's all hypothetical and opinion but I think the Ducks win it all that year if they get past Detroit, assuming they stay relatively healthy of course.

The East was more wide open and less of a grinding style back then and I think the West was the much stronger conference at that time. That Wings/Ducks series was a war and it took a lot out of Detroit going forward. They got even more beat up in the Chicago series and limped into the finals without Datsyuk and a whole wack of other players who were playing hurt. Trying to repeat is hard enough these days but the injuries and wear and tear made them look totally spent in those finals even if they did grind out the first two games without Datsyuk.

The matchup of Datsyuk against Malkin therefore didn't happen, which helped allow Malkin to have a big series. Had Anaheim won they could have not only had Neidermayer and Pronger on the ice at all times but they could use the Getzlaf and Marchant lines against Malkin and Crosby like they did against Zetterberg and Datsyuk's lines. Crosby struggled to produce against Zetterberg and Lidstrom and Datsyuk struggled to produce against Marchant with either Niedermayer or Pronger on the ice. Marchant was a great skater so he could keep up with Crosby and the Ducks big 3 D (with Beauchemin) would do the rest, leaving Malkin to go against the Getzlaf line.

It was my take at the time and I still think the Pens were very fortunate to play the representative from the West when they did.

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03-07-2017, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Well... they had Scott Niedermayer and Francois Beauchemin on another pairing too. And despite the issues with Giguere, they still let in fewer goals in the season than Detroit.
Kind of hard to talk about Giguere's regular season struggles and ignore the fact that Osgood was night and day between the regular season and playoffs.

The Red Wings did not play like the well-oiled machine they were in '08 but the biggest difference was still Osgood's .887 sv% in the season compared to .926 sv % in the playoffs. I'd never seen Osgood have such a terrible regular season and he played the best I'd ever seen in those playoffs.

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03-07-2017, 11:38 AM
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Kind of hard to talk about Giguere's regular season struggles and ignore the fact that Osgood was night and day between the regular season and playoffs.

The Red Wings did not play like the well-oiled machine they were in '08 but the biggest difference was still Osgood's .887 sv% in the season compared to .926 sv % in the playoffs. I'd never seen Osgood have such a terrible regular season and he played the best I'd ever seen in those playoffs.
Jonas Hiller had a .943 in the playoffs and is literally a different human being than Jean-Sebastien Giguere.

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03-07-2017, 11:53 AM
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the ducks lack of a real 2C was their biggest flaw that playoffs

their center depth in general was awful but you won't have much playoff success with guys like ryan carter and a couple old guys like niedermayer and marchant as the other C's

sad part is that murray did nothing to fix this after he traded mcdonald in '07 up until they got kesler a couple years ago
Niedermayer never played C in Anaheim. He was a winger on a line alongside Marchant and Miller who did all of the heavy lifting along with the Getzlaf line that post season. Marchant at that point was still very good defensively and did a good job at taking one of the top 2 lines in the SJ and Det series while Getzlaf went head to head with the other.

The issue was a lack of a centre for Selanne. Ebbett and Christensen were both used there that post season and both were not up to the task. Ebbett was decent in the regular season but only scored 1 goal in 13 playoff games. Carter slotted in on the LW on that line at times and fared OK but he was never used in the middle on that line.

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03-07-2017, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
It's all hypothetical and opinion but I think the Ducks win it all that year if they get past Detroit, assuming they stay relatively healthy of course.

The East was more wide open and less of a grinding style back then and I think the West was the much stronger conference at that time. That Wings/Ducks series was a war and it took a lot out of Detroit going forward. They got even more beat up in the Chicago series and limped into the finals without Datsyuk and a whole wack of other players who were playing hurt. Trying to repeat is hard enough these days but the injuries and wear and tear made them look totally spent in those finals even if they did grind out the first two games without Datsyuk.

The matchup of Datsyuk against Malkin therefore didn't happen, which helped allow Malkin to have a big series.
Had Anaheim won they could have not only had Neidermayer and Pronger on the ice at all times but they could use the Getzlaf and Marchant lines against Malkin and Crosby like they did against Zetterberg and Datsyuk's lines. Crosby struggled to produce against Zetterberg and Lidstrom and Datsyuk struggled to produce against Marchant with either Niedermayer or Pronger on the ice. Marchant was a great skater so he could keep up with Crosby and the Ducks big 3 D (with Beauchemin) would do the rest, leaving Malkin to go against the Getzlaf line.

It was my take at the time and I still think the Pens were very fortunate to play the representative from the West when they did.
I've tried to block this series out of my memory, but from what I do remember, Datsyuk played with Zetterberg when he returned after game 4. As such, he wouldn't have played against Malkin because Zetterberg was being used to shut down Crosby.

Malkin did not score in the last three games of the series, but I don't remember Datsyuk being the reason for that. I think Malkin just got gassed like he was the year before.

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03-07-2017, 01:30 PM
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Jonas Hiller had a .943 in the playoffs and is literally a different human being than Jean-Sebastien Giguere.
Hiller and Giguere split time during the season. Osgood and career backup Conklin split time during the season because Ozzie struggled so badly.

Hiller went from .919 to .943 for a .24 difference.

Osgood went from .887 to .926 for a .39 difference.

Therefore, you shouldn't point to Anaheim's goaltending issues during the season and ignore Detroit's.

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03-07-2017, 01:35 PM
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I've tried to block this series out of my memory, but from what I do remember, Datsyuk played with Zetterberg when he returned after game 4. As such, he wouldn't have played against Malkin because Zetterberg was being used to shut down Crosby.

Malkin did not score in the last three games of the series, but I don't remember Datsyuk being the reason for that. I think Malkin just got gassed like he was the year before.
Datsyuk returned in game 5 and only played on Zetterberg's wing in the finals because he wasn't healthy. Before that he centered his own line with Hossa and Holmstrom, while Zetterberg centered a line with Cleary and Franzen. Not having a healthy Datsyuk for the series absolutely hurt Babcock's ability to match up Datsyuk with Malkin.

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03-07-2017, 02:50 PM
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Niedermayer never played C in Anaheim. He was a winger on a line alongside Marchant and Miller who did all of the heavy lifting along with the Getzlaf line that post season. Marchant at that point was still very good defensively and did a good job at taking one of the top 2 lines in the SJ and Det series while Getzlaf went head to head with the other.

The issue was a lack of a centre for Selanne. Ebbett and Christensen were both used there that post season and both were not up to the task. Ebbett was decent in the regular season but only scored 1 goal in 13 playoff games. Carter slotted in on the LW on that line at times and fared OK but he was never used in the middle on that line.
forgot about ebbett and christiansen, that's how unmemorable they were. i still think if they had a decent 2C they make it past detroit

for some reason i thought they moved rob to C once they traded pahlsson

you could even say the ducks were sellers that deadline. traded kunitz, moen, pahlsson, and huskins away with the only returns of significance being whitney and wisniewski while they added a bunch of depth guys like christiansen, nokelainen, brown, etc

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03-07-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Hiller and Giguere split time during the season. Osgood and career backup Conklin split time during the season because Ozzie struggled so badly.

Hiller went from .919 to .943 for a .24 difference.

Osgood went from .887 to .926 for a .39 difference.

Therefore, you shouldn't point to Anaheim's goaltending issues during the season and ignore Detroit's.
Again... Jonas Hiller and Jean-Sebastien Giguere are different people (and Giguere certainly didn't have a .919). It's the difference between pacing to be tied for 8th in the league standings with Pittsburgh or pacing to be 21st and well out of the playoff picture.

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