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2009- If 8 Seed Anaheim got by Detroit, do they beat the Blackhawks/Penguins?

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Old
03-07-2017, 03:21 PM
  #26
danincanada
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Again... Jonas Hiller and Jean-Sebastien Giguere are different people (and Giguere certainly didn't have a .919). It's the difference between pacing to be tied for 8th in the league standings with Pittsburgh or pacing to be 21st and well out of the playoff picture.
Anaheim had a .909 sv% overall during the season while Detroit had a .896 sv% overall. The league average was .908 so the Ducks received slightly above average goaltending and the Wings goaltending was near the bottom. That's why this statement of yours doesn't make sense:

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And despite the issues with Giguere, they still let in fewer goals in the season than Detroit.
Which team had bigger issues in net that season??

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03-07-2017, 04:06 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Anaheim had a .909 sv% overall during the season while Detroit had a .896 sv% overall. The league average was .908 so the Ducks received slightly above average goaltending and the Wings goaltending was near the bottom.
Because Anaheim's numbers rebounded from a personnel change that rendered their averaged-out regular season numbers largely meaningless relative to the roster that took the ice in the playoffs. I mean, I don't know what else to do other than post pictures of Giguere and Hiller and highlight differences in facial structure.

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03-07-2017, 05:53 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by HowsUrBreath View Post
2012 kings
Right. Hard to argue.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Well... they had Scott Niedermayer and Francois Beauchemin on another pairing too. And despite the issues with Giguere, they still let in fewer goals in the season than Detroit.
Fine, but I think it is important to know where Niedermayer was at that stage. He had dropped down after coming back after the 2007 season. This wasn't 2004 Niedermayer anymore. With Pittsburgh you've got Letang coming into his own and Gonchar still very much a fine defenseman along with the shutdown pair of Gill and Scuderi.

I know Getzlaf was in beast mode that year but so were Crosby and Malkin. By the way, in the final it wasn't as if Crosby didn't play well because he did. They just managed to limit his production. I remember him being all over the ice even in the first two losses in Detroit. I don't see that center the Ducks have to match up with Crosby AND Malkin. Even Getzlaf was far enough behind them to say it was a disadvantage. Then the next best you have is perhaps an old Todd Marchant, who wouldn't even be impressive if he was young.

I'll still take the Pens because they actually did beat the team Anaheim couldn't. There are some people on here who think Detroit in 2009 was better than the 2008 version. I don't, not quite, but they beat any other team in the NHL that year other than Pittsburgh.

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03-08-2017, 12:01 AM
  #29
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i'm a pens fan

i don't think the pens beat the wings if they were healthy

not only datsyuk and lidstrom, hossa had a bad shoulder and he didn't play the next season until january

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03-08-2017, 08:10 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Because Anaheim's numbers rebounded from a personnel change that rendered their averaged-out regular season numbers largely meaningless relative to the roster that took the ice in the playoffs. I mean, I don't know what else to do other than post pictures of Giguere and Hiller and highlight differences in facial structure.
Likewise, Chris Osgood appearing to finally care about providing real goaltending to his team come playoff time completely changed things for the Red Wings. Osgood went from arguably he worst "starter" in the league to a Conn Smythe worthy performance in the playoffs. Osgood played like a totally different human being. That's why you shouldn't bring up the troubles Anaheim had in net during the regular season and forget that Detroit had at least an equally big problem with their starter.

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03-08-2017, 08:20 AM
  #31
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Fine, but I think it is important to know where Niedermayer was at that stage. He had dropped down after coming back after the 2007 season. This wasn't 2004 Niedermayer anymore. With Pittsburgh you've got Letang coming into his own and Gonchar still very much a fine defenseman along with the shutdown pair of Gill and Scuderi.

I know Getzlaf was in beast mode that year but so were Crosby and Malkin. By the way, in the final it wasn't as if Crosby didn't play well because he did. They just managed to limit his production. I remember him being all over the ice even in the first two losses in Detroit. I don't see that center the Ducks have to match up with Crosby AND Malkin. Even Getzlaf was far enough behind them to say it was a disadvantage. Then the next best you have is perhaps an old Todd Marchant, who wouldn't even be impressive if he was young.

I'll still take the Pens because they actually did beat the team Anaheim couldn't. There are some people on here who think Detroit in 2009 was better than the 2008 version. I don't, not quite, but they beat any other team in the NHL that year other than Pittsburgh.
Niedermayer was still great in 2009. He was only 35, which is not old for an elite defenseman like him. Even compare his offensive numbers and ice-time with 2004 and you'll see they are nearly identical.

Crosby was not dominant in the finals. He finally faced some great shutdown players, which Anaheim had too, and got shutdown (3 points in 6.5 games). Maybe Malkin could still break free but I think if the Ducks get by Detroit they use Marchant against Crosby, like they did with Datsyuk, and have Getzlaf go against Malkin, like they did with Zetterberg. The Anaheim defense was far stronger than the Pens so that's where it they'd have to make up the difference in elite centres. Detroit took the Pens to 7 games while missing their other elite centre for most of the series and being completely beat up so who knows.

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03-08-2017, 08:33 AM
  #32
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i'm a pens fan

i don't think the pens beat the wings if they were healthy

not only datsyuk and lidstrom, hossa had a bad shoulder and he didn't play the next season until january
One could expect them to have some injury issues because all teams that make it all the way to the finals have those. Add to that trying to repeat and it should be even worse. But it was kind of absurd how beat up they were. Cleary and Rafalski shouldn't have been playing due to their injuries and Ericsson was another guy who had surgery right before the series started. Rafalski's back issues eventually forced him to retire.

As a Wings fan it was a heart breaking loss but I couldn't have been prouder at the same time because that team had no business taking the series to 7 games in the condition they were in and they looked out of gas even in the first two games that they gritted out.

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03-08-2017, 09:30 PM
  #33
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forgot about ebbett and christiansen, that's how unmemorable they were. i still think if they had a decent 2C they make it past detroit

for some reason i thought they moved rob to C once they traded pahlsson

you could even say the ducks were sellers that deadline. traded kunitz, moen, pahlsson, and huskins away with the only returns of significance being whitney and wisniewski while they added a bunch of depth guys like christiansen, nokelainen, brown, etc
That's right, Anaheim was an oddball case of a team that seemed to concede that it was a lost season at the trade deadline, moved some guys out, then all of a sudden got hot at the end of the year and into the playoffs.

I think Chicago's depth and home ice advantage would have seen them edge out Anaheim. Joel Quenneville effectively rolled four lines all throughout the playoffs. Anaheim had a lot of plugs that didn't get much ice time in their bottom six (since they traded away three decent forwards at the deadline).

A lot would depend on Khabibulin. By my recollection, he was terrible against Detroit before getting injured. And really wasn't great as a whole that spring. The Blackhawks played the Red Wings pretty well I thought and were a little unfortunate to be down 2-0 to start the series, owing it largely to some weak goals against. Does the same thing happen against Anaheim? Who knows.

I don't think either team beats Pittsburgh though. Lack of depth after Getzlaf is problematic for the Ducks trying to deal with both Crosby and Malkin, hungry to avenge last season's defeat. Chicago was just too young that year to go the distance and bled too many goals against to be considered championship caliber.

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03-11-2017, 04:18 AM
  #34
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Imo, had the Ducks made it to finals, they would have won over the Pens. I remember how injured Wings were on that final series, yet they took it to game 7.

But that Ducks - Wings sure was a great series. I wish Ducks would have won, though

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03-11-2017, 09:25 AM
  #35
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Niedermayer was still great in 2009. He was only 35, which is not old for an elite defenseman like him. Even compare his offensive numbers and ice-time with 2004 and you'll see they are nearly identical.

Crosby was not dominant in the finals. He finally faced some great shutdown players, which Anaheim had too, and got shutdown (3 points in 6.5 games). Maybe Malkin could still break free but I think if the Ducks get by Detroit they use Marchant against Crosby, like they did with Datsyuk, and have Getzlaf go against Malkin, like they did with Zetterberg. The Anaheim defense was far stronger than the Pens so that's where it they'd have to make up the difference in elite centres. Detroit took the Pens to 7 games while missing their other elite centre for most of the series and being completely beat up so who knows.
Usually when teams can't make it out of the second round and only have 91 points in the regular season you don't figure they could have taken out the actual Cup champs. The 1993 Pens? Yeah, if they get past the 2nd round I think they win the Cup and dodge a bullet from the Isles. But that's a whole different animal, the 1993 series was a monumental upset. Anaheim squeaked into the playoffs and we are talking about them winning the Cup? Sorry, don't buy it. Everyone got a good crack at the Sharks back then in the postseason. Winning one round impressively doesn't mean you win a Cup. The Ducks missed the playoffs the next season and had less points than the year before. I think they were a good team, better than the 91 points suggests, but that's as far as it goes.

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03-11-2017, 10:03 AM
  #36
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The Ducks missed the playoffs the next season and had less points than the year before. I think they were a good team, better than the 91 points suggests, but that's as far as it goes.
They missed the playoffs with 89 points because they traded their best player to a team that finished with 88 points and made the Stanley Cup Finals.

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03-11-2017, 11:47 AM
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a team that trades chris pronger simply does not make the playoffs the following season

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03-11-2017, 02:11 PM
  #38
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Prolly would of went to 7 with the pens, but I'd say yes they would of won

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03-11-2017, 03:12 PM
  #39
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Usually when teams can't make it out of the second round and only have 91 points in the regular season you don't figure they could have taken out the actual Cup champs. The 1993 Pens? Yeah, if they get past the 2nd round I think they win the Cup and dodge a bullet from the Isles. But that's a whole different animal, the 1993 series was a monumental upset. Anaheim squeaked into the playoffs and we are talking about them winning the Cup? Sorry, don't buy it. Everyone got a good crack at the Sharks back then in the postseason. Winning one round impressively doesn't mean you win a Cup. The Ducks missed the playoffs the next season and had less points than the year before. I think they were a good team, better than the 91 points suggests, but that's as far as it goes.
The "champs" only had 99 points so there was a bigger difference in the standings between the Wings and the Pens than there was between the Pens and the Ducks. Anyways, the regular season is tossed out the window once the playoffs start and the Ducks were seasoned, as they were champs themselves just two years before, and not only had both Neidermayer and Pronger but Getzlaf and Perry were in their primes by then, too. To me, that Wings/Ducks series was a grittier and tougher series, and even appeared to be played at a higher level, than anything that happened in the East that year. Detroit was far healthier against the Ducks and they gave them all they could handle. They limped into the finals without a Hart finalist and still only lost by a goal in game 7. In my opinion, if the Wings could have stayed relatively healthy and won it all people would have looked back and said the real finals was that second round matchup. Unfortunately we all know how things played out instead.

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03-11-2017, 03:24 PM
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The "champs" only had 99 points so there was a bigger difference in the standings between the Wings and the Pens than there was between the Pens and the Ducks. Anyways, the regular season is tossed out the window once the playoffs start and the Ducks were seasoned, as they were champs themselves just two years before, and not only had both Neidermayer and Pronger but Getzlaf and Perry were in their primes by then, too. To me, that Wings/Ducks series was a grittier and tougher series, and even appeared to be played at a higher level, than anything that happened in the East that year. Detroit was far healthier against the Ducks and they gave them all they could handle. They limped into the finals without a Hart finalist and still only lost by a goal in game 7. In my opinion, if the Wings could have stayed relatively healthy and won it all people would have looked back and said the real finals was that second round matchup. Unfortunately we all know how things played out instead.
When Therrien got fired and Bylsma took over the team went on an impressive 18-3-4 run to end the season. That's why the 99 points is as low as it is. I don't think many people outside of Montreal care for Michel Therrien. As a coach I thought he was awful and he had possibly the most talented team in the NHL play a safe game up until he was fired. That's not how you coach Crosby and Malkin, even if Gonchar is out. This is why he got fired, and for the heck of it even Montreal has fired him twice. This Pens team was hungry after what had happened in 2008. I honestly thought that once the playoffs started the only team that might take them out is if they met Detroit in the final again. Washington obviously came close too. But after three rounds Crosby and Malkin both had 28 points. How could the Ducks have stopped those two? That's my question before we start giving them credit for a Cup they never won.

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They missed the playoffs with 89 points because they traded their best player to a team that finished with 88 points and made the Stanley Cup Finals.
They had the exact same team in 2009 as they did in 2008 and in 2008 they got booted out in the first round. They even had a rested Niedermayer and Selanne in 2008 because they "retired" and then came back midseason. This Ducks team had their opportunities to do more but didn't. I'm not sure they should be getting credit for a Stanley Cup in an alternate universe. Nothing against Dallas in 2008, but they probably should have beaten them.

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03-11-2017, 03:32 PM
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Chicago buzz saw probably goes to the finals that year, No one was stopping Malkin though

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03-11-2017, 05:31 PM
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They had the exact same team in 2009 as they did in 2008
Except for seven forwards, three defensemen, and their goalie, sure.

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03-11-2017, 05:45 PM
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They had the exact same team in 2009 as they did in 2008 and in 2008 they got booted out in the first round. They even had a rested Niedermayer and Selanne in 2008 because they "retired" and then came back midseason. This Ducks team had their opportunities to do more but didn't. I'm not sure they should be getting credit for a Stanley Cup in an alternate universe. Nothing against Dallas in 2008, but they probably should have beaten them.
actually the whole niedermayer and selanne "retirement" thing did more damage than anything in '08

they were both rusty when they got back. not to mention that the first line from the previous year's cup team was broken up when they were forced to trade mcdonald for doug "dead" weight who was absolutely awful with the ducks

that dallas team wanted it more and outplayed the ducks in every aspect

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03-12-2017, 02:10 PM
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actually the whole niedermayer and selanne "retirement" thing did more damage than anything in '08

they were both rusty when they got back. not to mention that the first line from the previous year's cup team was broken up when they were forced to trade mcdonald for doug "dead" weight who was absolutely awful with the ducks

that dallas team wanted it more and outplayed the ducks in every aspect
Niedermayer was never the same after 2007. So why are we arguing in 2009 he makes the difference? If the Ducks in 2009 were so good and we are set to reward them with a Cup in an alternate universe vs. the real Cup champs then why did they barely squeak into the playoffs by two points? Sorry, just not buying it.

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Except for seven forwards, three defensemen, and their goalie, sure.
Getlaf, Perry, Selanne, Ryan, S. Niedermayer, Pronger, R. Niedermayer, Parros, Beauchemin, Marchant, Moen among others were all on both teams. Plus the same two goalies. That's your core right there. Whitney replaces Kunitz who went to the eventual Cup champs. If you want a more legitimate poll you should do the 2007 Ducks vs. the 2009 Pens.

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03-12-2017, 08:00 PM
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Niedermayer was never the same after 2007. So why are we arguing in 2009 he makes the difference? If the Ducks in 2009 were so good and we are set to reward them with a Cup in an alternate universe vs. the real Cup champs then why did they barely squeak into the playoffs by two points? Sorry, just not buying it.



Getlaf, Perry, Selanne, Ryan, S. Niedermayer, Pronger, R. Niedermayer, Parros, Beauchemin, Marchant, Moen among others were all on both teams. Plus the same two goalies. That's your core right there. Whitney replaces Kunitz who went to the eventual Cup champs. If you want a more legitimate poll you should do the 2007 Ducks vs. the 2009 Pens.
he wasn't? he put up 59 pts in 08-09

and what does barely sneaking into the playoffs have to do with it? there have been plenty of instances where teams snuck into the playoffs and turned it on. that '09 ducks team got hot towards the end of the season and carried that momentum into the playoffs

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03-14-2017, 08:59 AM
  #46
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he wasn't? he put up 59 pts in 08-09

and what does barely sneaking into the playoffs have to do with it? there have been plenty of instances where teams snuck into the playoffs and turned it on. that '09 ducks team got hot towards the end of the season and carried that momentum into the playoffs
Neidermayer also captained Team Canada at the '10 Olympics and played a prominent role. He was still a great player and he and Pronger were a formidable shut down duo allowing the Ducks to practically have one of them on the ice at all times. That would be the biggest factor for me if the Ducks had played the Pens. Malkin and Crosby didn't have to face any elite defensemen until the finals.

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03-14-2017, 09:03 AM
  #47
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When Therrien got fired and Bylsma took over the team went on an impressive 18-3-4 run to end the season. That's why the 99 points is as low as it is. I don't think many people outside of Montreal care for Michel Therrien. As a coach I thought he was awful and he had possibly the most talented team in the NHL play a safe game up until he was fired. That's not how you coach Crosby and Malkin, even if Gonchar is out. This is why he got fired, and for the heck of it even Montreal has fired him twice. This Pens team was hungry after what had happened in 2008. I honestly thought that once the playoffs started the only team that might take them out is if they met Detroit in the final again. Washington obviously came close too. But after three rounds Crosby and Malkin both had 28 points. How could the Ducks have stopped those two? That's my question before we start giving them credit for a Cup they never won.
In hindsight obviously the coaching change was a great move but to blame them getting only 99 points all on Therrien doesn't look that great when they only got 101 points the next season with Bylsma behind the bench the whole time. Teams get hot at the right time and teams gets breaks along the way... we've all seen it in the playoffs.

The point is that it's shouldn't be inconceivable that the 91 point Ducks team were good enough to win it all but the 99 point Penguins team were. That Ducks team was not far removed from winning it all and Getzlaf, Perry, and Hiller were playing great and they had two elite defenders on D. The West was also the tougher conference overall that year.

Malkin and Crosby lit it up the first 3 rounds but who did they have to face? Name me one good to great shutdown defender on Philly, the Caps, or the Canes then. Look at the goalies they went up against, too. Facing Pronger, Neidermayer, (and even Beauchemin) with Hiller in net for a series was something completely different. Not saying anyone should "award" the cup to the Ducks but you should realize it wasn't as simple as them being a weak 8th seed.

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03-14-2017, 05:20 PM
  #48
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They probably get by Chicago but I doubt they would beat Pittsburgh.

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03-14-2017, 06:42 PM
  #49
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Another interesting sidenote about the '09 Ducks:

They could have played Detroit in the first round. IIRC there was a Blues/Avalanche game at the end of the season that determined the fate of the 6-7-8 seeds.

The Blues won. Had they not done so, Anaheim would have drawn Detroit instead of San Jose.

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03-14-2017, 08:14 PM
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Another interesting sidenote about the '09 Ducks:

They could have played Detroit in the first round. IIRC there was a Blues/Avalanche game at the end of the season that determined the fate of the 6-7-8 seeds.

The Blues won. Had they not done so, Anaheim would have drawn Detroit instead of San Jose.
You know what? I remember that.

I was rooting for Detroit not to play the Ducks. The Wings lucked out and got a pedestrian Columbus team in the first round instead.

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