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2009- If 8 Seed Anaheim got by Detroit, do they beat the Blackhawks/Penguins?

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Old
03-14-2017, 10:16 PM
  #51
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I don't see why not.

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03-17-2017, 09:30 PM
  #52
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In hindsight obviously the coaching change was a great move but to blame them getting only 99 points all on Therrien doesn't look that great when they only got 101 points the next season with Bylsma behind the bench the whole time. Teams get hot at the right time and teams gets breaks along the way... we've all seen it in the playoffs.

The point is that it's shouldn't be inconceivable that the 91 point Ducks team were good enough to win it all but the 99 point Penguins team were. That Ducks team was not far removed from winning it all and Getzlaf, Perry, and Hiller were playing great and they had two elite defenders on D. The West was also the tougher conference overall that year.

Malkin and Crosby lit it up the first 3 rounds but who did they have to face? Name me one good to great shutdown defender on Philly, the Caps, or the Canes then. Look at the goalies they went up against, too. Facing Pronger, Neidermayer, (and even Beauchemin) with Hiller in net for a series was something completely different. Not saying anyone should "award" the cup to the Ducks but you should realize it wasn't as simple as them being a weak 8th seed.
The thing is, before Bylsma came in at the end of 2009 they were not on pace for that 99 points. They were on pace for about 84. They were dangerously close to not making the playoffs before that coaching change came. The following year they get 101 and they wouldn't have done that with a full season with Therrien in 2009. I don't know why he coached differently because in 2008 they had over 100 also. So I think it is fair to say the Pens were better than their regular season suggested.

By the way, I am with you on Pronger. He was always someone you could count on to play the shutdown role effectively and individually he could dominate, even by 2009, but what is with this love for Niedermayer? From a defensive standpoint I am sorry I was never impressed with him his entire career. He was always the fastest guy on the ice but he was so accident prone out there. Pronger is probably going to be glued to either one of Crosby or Malkin but it doesn't matter who Niedermayer matches up with because he couldn't contain them. He wasn't a lights out defensive shell who shut down guys. I never thought he was at least. He was not good at all in the 2010 Olympics, he was getting a lot of heat as the captain as the tournament went on and if not for a quick shoulder from Roberto Luongo we'd be talking about Nieds as one of the biggest goats of all-time because he made a horrible pass right to Ryan Kesler in overtime in the Gold medal game just seconds before Crosby took the puck up the ice and scored. Look it up.

So I'm sorry, I just don't see it. The bread and butter of Anaheim was that they always had one of these guys on the ice in all situations and that bodes well until they have to face two elite centermen. It didn't help them beat Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Detroit.

I honestly think people have the 2009 team mixed up with the 2015 team as a team that "would" have won the Cup if they got past their opponents. Anaheim beats Tampa in 2015 if they had beaten Chicago and figured out a way to score a goal in one of those multiple overtime losses that would have given them a stranglehold on the series. But I don't see it with 2009.

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03-18-2017, 01:54 AM
  #53
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I think they would of beaten the Blackhawks. Against the Penguins I think Ducks could of won but it would of been harder then a Blackhawks series.

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03-18-2017, 10:01 AM
  #54
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The thing is, before Bylsma came in at the end of 2009 they were not on pace for that 99 points. They were on pace for about 84. They were dangerously close to not making the playoffs before that coaching change came. The following year they get 101 and they wouldn't have done that with a full season with Therrien in 2009. I don't know why he coached differently because in 2008 they had over 100 also. So I think it is fair to say the Pens were better than their regular season suggested.
Uh, that's exactly what I was saying about that Ducks team. Two years removed from a Cup with loads of experience and more mature Getzlaf/Perry combo. If you watched that series against Detroit you would have noticed they were a far tougher out than their 91 points suggested.

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By the way, I am with you on Pronger. He was always someone you could count on to play the shutdown role effectively and individually he could dominate, even by 2009, but what is with this love for Niedermayer? From a defensive standpoint I am sorry I was never impressed with him his entire career. He was always the fastest guy on the ice but he was so accident prone out there. Pronger is probably going to be glued to either one of Crosby or Malkin but it doesn't matter who Niedermayer matches up with because he couldn't contain them. He wasn't a lights out defensive shell who shut down guys. I never thought he was at least. He was not good at all in the 2010 Olympics, he was getting a lot of heat as the captain as the tournament went on and if not for a quick shoulder from Roberto Luongo we'd be talking about Nieds as one of the biggest goats of all-time because he made a horrible pass right to Ryan Kesler in overtime in the Gold medal game just seconds before Crosby took the puck up the ice and scored. Look it up.
Niedermayer in '09, even if not at his peak, was still better than any defensemen the Pens faced in the East. He was not an easy defensemen to play against either. Great skater and extremely experienced, hence captaining Team Canada. One giveaway to Kesler doesn't change that - that was also the following year before he retired.

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So I'm sorry, I just don't see it. The bread and butter of Anaheim was that they always had one of these guys on the ice in all situations and that bodes well until they have to face two elite centermen. It didn't help them beat Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Detroit.
Detroit in '09 was really stacked and relatively healthy against the Ducks. You do realize that series was decided by a controversial single goal in game 7, right? It could have went either way so the Pronger/Niedermayer duo almost did beat them. That's why this is an interesting "what if" thread.

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I honestly think people have the 2009 team mixed up with the 2015 team as a team that "would" have won the Cup if they got past their opponents. Anaheim beats Tampa in 2015 if they had beaten Chicago and figured out a way to score a goal in one of those multiple overtime losses that would have given them a stranglehold on the series. But I don't see it with 2009.
Maybe you were only watching the Eastern Conference in the '09 playoffs?

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03-18-2017, 03:21 PM
  #55
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Uh, that's exactly what I was saying about that Ducks team. Two years removed from a Cup with loads of experience and more mature Getzlaf/Perry combo. If you watched that series against Detroit you would have noticed they were a far tougher out than their 91 points suggested.

Niedermayer in '09, even if not at his peak, was still better than any defensemen the Pens faced in the East. He was not an easy defensemen to play against either. Great skater and extremely experienced, hence captaining Team Canada. One giveaway to Kesler doesn't change that - that was also the following year before he retired.

Detroit in '09 was really stacked and relatively healthy against the Ducks. You do realize that series was decided by a controversial single goal in game 7, right? It could have went either way so the Pronger/Niedermayer duo almost did beat them. That's why this is an interesting "what if" thread.

Maybe you were only watching the Eastern Conference in the '09 playoffs?
Look, I am not saying the 2009 Ducks weren't a good team. They were, and yes they were better than their 91 points suggested. But the Getzlaf/Perry combo was several steps behind the Crosby/Malkin duo. Throw in the fact that the Pens got more from their supporting cast that is often remembered. When your top players have 36 and 31 points than everyone else is going to look mediocre in comparison. However, Guerin had a surprisingly good postseason. Fleury did, Letang did, Gonchar did, Gill and Scuderi were a nice shutdown combo, Staal did what he did and the rest of the cast chipped in as well. Detroit was such a well oiled machine back then and I don't think Anaheim played near as close to an error-free game as the Red Wings. For what its worth, the Ducks and Pens played each other once in 2009 and the Pens won 3-1. I know that means little, but as I said before I am not sold on Niedermayer at this point in his career.

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03-20-2017, 01:51 PM
  #56
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Look, I am not saying the 2009 Ducks weren't a good team. They were, and yes they were better than their 91 points suggested. But the Getzlaf/Perry combo was several steps behind the Crosby/Malkin duo. Throw in the fact that the Pens got more from their supporting cast that is often remembered. When your top players have 36 and 31 points than everyone else is going to look mediocre in comparison. However, Guerin had a surprisingly good postseason. Fleury did, Letang did, Gonchar did, Gill and Scuderi were a nice shutdown combo, Staal did what he did and the rest of the cast chipped in as well. Detroit was such a well oiled machine back then and I don't think Anaheim played near as close to an error-free game as the Red Wings. For what its worth, the Ducks and Pens played each other once in 2009 and the Pens won 3-1. I know that means little, but as I said before I am not sold on Niedermayer at this point in his career.
Honestly, the Zetterberg/Lidstrom combo had a tougher match up with Getzlaf's line than Crosby's that playoff. Getzlaf and Perry each had 10 points in 7 games while Crosby only had 3 against Detroit. That was Getzlaf at his peak and he was a force so even if he wasn't as good as Crosby or Malkin overall he wasn't far behind at that time and he was a seasoned playoff performer already.

Anaheim's defense was much stronger than the Pens and the Ducks had plenty of depth solid depth, too. Bringing up one regular season game where the Pens beat the Ducks is not even worth mentioning because the playoffs is a whole different game.

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Old
03-22-2017, 04:25 PM
  #57
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Honestly, the Zetterberg/Lidstrom combo had a tougher match up with Getzlaf's line than Crosby's that playoff. Getzlaf and Perry each had 10 points in 7 games while Crosby only had 3 against Detroit. That was Getzlaf at his peak and he was a force so even if he wasn't as good as Crosby or Malkin overall he wasn't far behind at that time and he was a seasoned playoff performer already.

Anaheim's defense was much stronger than the Pens and the Ducks had plenty of depth solid depth, too. Bringing up one regular season game where the Pens beat the Ducks is not even worth mentioning because the playoffs is a whole different game.
You could probably find a way to neutralize Crosby. Detroit did it, but I think they were a better fit to do a thing like that than Anaheim. In all honesty, I think it would have to be Pronger doing the checking against Crosby, I can't see Niedermayer shutting him down. That still leaves Malkin wide open. The Getzlaf and Perry combo are one line, who does Anaheim have that comes near to Malkin outside of those two? Because to be honest Perry was just starting to come into his own at that time. I'll give you Getzlaf as someone who was fairly established by then but the two star players for Anaheim are not at Pittsburgh's level and I am not sold on their supporting cast outdoing Pittsburgh's either, or their goaltending.

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03-23-2017, 01:09 PM
  #58
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You could probably find a way to neutralize Crosby. Detroit did it, but I think they were a better fit to do a thing like that than Anaheim. In all honesty, I think it would have to be Pronger doing the checking against Crosby, I can't see Niedermayer shutting him down. That still leaves Malkin wide open. The Getzlaf and Perry combo are one line, who does Anaheim have that comes near to Malkin outside of those two? Because to be honest Perry was just starting to come into his own at that time. I'll give you Getzlaf as someone who was fairly established by then but the two star players for Anaheim are not at Pittsburgh's level and I am not sold on their supporting cast outdoing Pittsburgh's either, or their goaltending.
How does it leave Malkin "wide open" when Niedermayer is available to focus on him if Pronger is going against Crosby? Even if you feel that Pronger was their top shutdown guy, once again, Niedermayer was a better defenseman than anything the Pens faced in the East that playoff and I'm assuming you have him as the Ducks # 2 option.

In the Wings/Ducks series it was Getzlaf against Zetterberg and Datsyuk against Marchant. The Ducks focused on shutting down Datsyuk like the Wings did with Crosby and both worked. I envision the same would have happened if the Ducks made it to the finals. Marchant could skate with anyone and could be a real pain to play against like Draper.

Hiller was brilliant in net for them in the first two rounds (.943 sv % through 13 games) so goaltending was not an issue. They had loads of depth on defense (Beauchemin, Whitney, Wisniewski) and good forward depth with Selanne, Ryan, Marchant, Carter, Miller, etc. so it wouldn't be an issue either. It's a coin flip at best in my opinion.

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03-26-2017, 07:11 PM
  #59
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How does it leave Malkin "wide open" when Niedermayer is available to focus on him if Pronger is going against Crosby? Even if you feel that Pronger was their top shutdown guy, once again, Niedermayer was a better defenseman than anything the Pens faced in the East that playoff and I'm assuming you have him as the Ducks # 2 option.

In the Wings/Ducks series it was Getzlaf against Zetterberg and Datsyuk against Marchant. The Ducks focused on shutting down Datsyuk like the Wings did with Crosby and both worked. I envision the same would have happened if the Ducks made it to the finals. Marchant could skate with anyone and could be a real pain to play against like Draper.

Hiller was brilliant in net for them in the first two rounds (.943 sv % through 13 games) so goaltending was not an issue. They had loads of depth on defense (Beauchemin, Whitney, Wisniewski) and good forward depth with Selanne, Ryan, Marchant, Carter, Miller, etc. so it wouldn't be an issue either. It's a coin flip at best in my opinion.
Because for starters the combo of Malkin and Crosby was better than Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Secondly, Niedermayer is often thought to be one of the most overrated defensemen on these boards. I'll concede the guy is a HHOFer, no problem with that, but defensively he always left a lot to the imagination for me. I would never trust Niedermayer to shut down a guy like Malkin over a 7 game series.

I'll still take the actual Cup champs in real life if this series ever happened.

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03-27-2017, 08:43 AM
  #60
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Because for starters the combo of Malkin and Crosby was better than Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Secondly, Niedermayer is often thought to be one of the most overrated defensemen on these boards. I'll concede the guy is a HHOFer, no problem with that, but defensively he always left a lot to the imagination for me. I would never trust Niedermayer to shut down a guy like Malkin over a 7 game series.

I'll still take the actual Cup champs in real life if this series ever happened.
They weren't better in the '08 finals and Zetterberg outplayed Crosby head to head in both finals so it's not that clear cut.

Scott Niedermayer does tend to get overrated but, for the last time, name me one defenseman they faced in the East in those playoffs who was better than him all around. Facing Pronger/Niedermayer in the finals after the weak defense they played against on the way would be a real eye opener. They weren't going to put up those huge numbers against either Detroit or Anaheim like they did in the East.

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03-28-2017, 04:13 PM
  #61
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They weren't better in the '08 finals and Zetterberg outplayed Crosby head to head in both finals so it's not that clear cut.

Scott Niedermayer does tend to get overrated but, for the last time, name me one defenseman they faced in the East in those playoffs who was better than him all around. Facing Pronger/Niedermayer in the finals after the weak defense they played against on the way would be a real eye opener. They weren't going to put up those huge numbers against either Detroit or Anaheim like they did in the East.
I think by 2008 and definitely by 2009 it was quite established that Crosby and Malkin were the two best centers in the NHL. It isn't as if Zetterberg and Datsyuk were the best players in the NHL before Malkin and Crosby arrived. The latter hit the ground running right off the bat. By 2009 either Malkin or Crosby had won the last three Art Rosses. I think they were a noticeable step above Zetterberg and Datsyuk when you look at the large sample sizes to choose from. The Wings in 2008 were just simply the better team.

As for Niedermayer, no I don't think the Pens faced a better defenseman in the East in the playoffs. Mike Green was not good defensively as we all know. But there is a flip side, Niedermayer had never faced Crosby either in the West.

Also, was Anaheim a better team than Washington in 2009? Because the Pens beat them no excuses needed. I don't think they were.


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03-28-2017, 10:06 PM
  #62
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i love zetterberg, i think he belongs in the hall of fame and i think he's better than many of the guys on the top 100 list

but he did not shut down crosby by himself, i think lidstrom helped a bit

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Yesterday, 10:16 AM
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I think by 2008 and definitely by 2009 it was quite established that Crosby and Malkin were the two best centers in the NHL. It isn't as if Zetterberg and Datsyuk were the best players in the NHL before Malkin and Crosby arrived. The latter hit the ground running right off the bat. By 2009 either Malkin or Crosby had won the last three Art Rosses. I think they were a noticeable step above Zetterberg and Datsyuk when you look at the large sample sizes to choose from. The Wings in 2008 were just simply the better team.
Datsyuk and Zetterberg were right there with them in '08 and '09. Zetterberg outplayed Crosby head to head in both finals so there's that. Datsyuk also got nominated for the Hart over Crosby in '09. The Detroit centres also sacrificed offensive numbers to play much better two-way games than Pittsburgh's two guys. In a big penalty killing situation or when trying to protect the lead at the end of the game Babcock would typically turn to Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The same can't be said for Pittsburgh. In the '08 season the Pens guys received roughly an extra minute of PP time per game and a minute less of PK time per game. In '09 the Pens guys received roughly an extra two minutes of PP per game. In a nutshell, you're too focused on offensive numbers and not their all around games and how their teams used them, especially when Datsyuk was at 97 points each season and near the top of the league in +/- -both years - the guy was a two-way monster. You shouldn't be as superficial as common fans or the media.

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As for Niedermayer, no I don't think the Pens faced a better defenseman in the East in the playoffs. Mike Green was not good defensively as we all know. But there is a flip side, Niedermayer had never faced Crosby either in the West.
Anaheim faced Joe Thornton in the first round and Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the second round. I'm not a big Thornton guy but it's a heck of a lot closer to Crosby than those defenseman comparables in the East were to Niedermayer.

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Also, was Anaheim a better team than Washington in 2009? Because the Pens beat them no excuses needed. I don't think they were.
Anaheim was a better playoff team than Washington then, no doubt. They had a superior defense corps and were two years removed from winning it all. The Caps still haven't totally figured out this playoff thing even after rebuilding their D.

The West was a lot stronger than the East back then. The first time we saw an Eastern team with a comparable defensive game to the strong Western teams was Boston and they won it all in '11 and look what they did to the Pens in '13.

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Yesterday, 05:20 PM
  #64
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Datsyuk and Zetterberg were right there with them in '08 and '09. Zetterberg outplayed Crosby head to head in both finals so there's that. Datsyuk also got nominated for the Hart over Crosby in '09. The Detroit centres also sacrificed offensive numbers to play much better two-way games than Pittsburgh's two guys. In a big penalty killing situation or when trying to protect the lead at the end of the game Babcock would typically turn to Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The same can't be said for Pittsburgh. In the '08 season the Pens guys received roughly an extra minute of PP time per game and a minute less of PK time per game. In '09 the Pens guys received roughly an extra two minutes of PP per game. In a nutshell, you're too focused on offensive numbers and not their all around games and how their teams used them, especially when Datsyuk was at 97 points each season and near the top of the league in +/- -both years - the guy was a two-way monster. You shouldn't be as superficial as common fans or the media.
There was some vote splitting that didn't benefit Crosby in 2009. Having the Art Ross winner on your team isn't going to help you win the Hart. For this reason we saw Steve Mason and Zach Parise each finish ahead of Crosby in Hart voting. I'll maintain that Datsyuk was amazing that year and clearly an elite center. I don't think you'd find a GM willing to part with Crosby to have him though, not even that year when they were as close as they ever were to each other. While Zetterberg himself was a great two-way center, the truth is he was a noticeable step back in 2009. Even taking their overall games into account Zetterberg had 73 points while Crosby had 103 in what was thought of as an off year for him. I think if you ask people back then which 1-2 combo they wanted down the middle they would have said Malkin and Crosby. Detroit had more depth and didn't rely on their top two guys as much while the Pens needed Malkin and Crosby to be basically the two-headed monster.

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Anaheim was a better playoff team than Washington then, no doubt. They had a superior defense corps and were two years removed from winning it all. The Caps still haven't totally figured out this playoff thing even after rebuilding their D.

The West was a lot stronger than the East back then. The first time we saw an Eastern team with a comparable defensive game to the strong Western teams was Boston and they won it all in '11 and look what they did to the Pens in '13.
To be fair the Caps had 108 points, had the Hart winner and a 31 goal defenseman who almost won the Norris. Call it how you see it I guess, but the Pens didn't have home ice that series and needed to win on the road in Game 7, just like Detroit. They would have had home ice advantage against Anaheim which is something I think you are overlooking.

The Pens were 9-2 on home ice those playoffs and 7-6 on the road. Anaheim was 4-2 at home and 3-4 on the road. Even in 2008 the Pens were 9-2 at home. That doesn't bode well for Anaheim.

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Yesterday, 08:20 PM
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Anaheim, in all likelihood, beats Chicago and loses to Pittsburgh.

I still feel Detroit repeats that season if they face anyone other than Pittsburgh. Even after the series with Anaheim leaving several of their guys banged up significantly.

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Yesterday, 10:01 PM
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Anaheim, in all likelihood, beats Chicago and loses to Pittsburgh.

I still feel Detroit repeats that season if they face anyone other than Pittsburgh. Even after the series with Anaheim leaving several of their guys banged up significantly.
Agreed with all of this. Detroit beats Washington and it isn't even close with Carolina. Ovechkin was as close to an unstoppable force as you could imagine so I think the Caps squeak out a win or two but aren't in the series for very long. There was too much of a choke job from guys like Green and Semin back then. I can't imagine Detroit changing that.

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Today, 09:02 AM
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There was some vote splitting that didn't benefit Crosby in 2009. Having the Art Ross winner on your team isn't going to help you win the Hart. For this reason we saw Steve Mason and Zach Parise each finish ahead of Crosby in Hart voting. I'll maintain that Datsyuk was amazing that year and clearly an elite center. I don't think you'd find a GM willing to part with Crosby to have him though, not even that year when they were as close as they ever were to each other. While Zetterberg himself was a great two-way center, the truth is he was a noticeable step back in 2009. Even taking their overall games into account Zetterberg had 73 points while Crosby had 103 in what was thought of as an off year for him. I think if you ask people back then which 1-2 combo they wanted down the middle they would have said Malkin and Crosby. Detroit had more depth and didn't rely on their top two guys as much while the Pens needed Malkin and Crosby to be basically the two-headed monster.
Datsyuk also finished ahead of Crosby in Hart voting in '09 with the votes being 404 to 103. Zetterberg was terrific in the playoffs once again and outplayed Crosby once again head to head so if you asked people after the playoffs who they preferred they might scratch their heads and think about it because at that time Zetterberg was definitely an amazing two-way playoff performer whereas Crosby was still quite one dimensional.

You're right, Detroit had more depth and therefore Datsyuk and Zetterberg received nearly two minutes less on the PP than Malkin and Crosby during the '09 season. That's a huge difference over the course of a season. If Babcock focused his two on offense as much as the Pens did with theirs they'd put up much bigger numbers. This point can't be missed, especially since you seem to only focus on offensive numbers.

Malkin and Crosby were a two-headed monster in the East but look who they played. The Canes were not a strong team and the Caps had no defensive game to speak of. The West was much tougher with the Ducks, who won it all just 2 years earlier, and the Hawks who won the following year and would start winning Cups regularly with the same core. It wasn't really close.

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To be fair the Caps had 108 points, had the Hart winner and a 31 goal defenseman who almost won the Norris. Call it how you see it I guess, but the Pens didn't have home ice that series and needed to win on the road in Game 7, just like Detroit. They would have had home ice advantage against Anaheim which is something I think you are overlooking.

The Pens were 9-2 on home ice those playoffs and 7-6 on the road. Anaheim was 4-2 at home and 3-4 on the road. Even in 2008 the Pens were 9-2 at home. That doesn't bode well for Anaheim.
In this post you're trying to pimp the Caps and two posts later you state two of their top players, in Green and Semin, were chokers. Which one was it?

The Ducks went toe to toe with a fairly healthy Red Wings team and lost by a hair. I don't think either the Pens or Caps put up that much of a fight against a fresher and healthier Red Wings team in the second round. It was night and day and trying to repeat took it's toll by the finals. Just my opinion of course.

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