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Replacement for Rinne?

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Old
03-07-2017, 02:08 PM
  #26
Scoresberg
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Originally Posted by Mortiest Morty View Post
He's not a good goalie behind any defense, he's even poor fundamentally and positionally at this point. Sure, he's had some hot streaks, just like any goalie can. Hell, Andrew Hammond is a very bad goalie, but he had a tremendous hot streak not long ago. And sure, if the entire team focus is 100% on helping out Rinne, he would have better numbers. But however you want to rate a goalie: eye test, underlying numbers and advance stats, regular old stats, whatever. Rinne isn't good, by some measures he's even incredibly bad. He's been on a downward trajectory since his breakup and run of injuries and it's going to get worse before it gets better.
Disagree. Minnesota's team defense has been elite among the league for a few years, and that team's team defense made DUBNYK of all the goalies one of the best in the league.

This team's offense mentality creates so many turnovers and odd-man rushes and they don't defend them all that well.

And no, the whole team's focus shouldn't be on helping out Rinne but the coaching staff should acknowledge the situation in goal and adapt. Rinne was elite when Lavy got here, and it got Lavy thinking that this team can go all-offense and Rinne will bail them out. Rinne has certainly lost a step from that year but Lavy still thinks that this team doesn't have to focus on defense. This has been a problem in Laviolette's teams before, too.

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03-07-2017, 02:13 PM
  #27
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Rinne wasn't elite his last 2 years under Trotz and even in Lavy's first year he struggled towards the 2nd half.

Nothing like right now though. He's awful right now.

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03-07-2017, 02:16 PM
  #28
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Sorry man, I'm going with wrong on this one as well. The entire time Lavy has been here, the Preds have been near the top of the league in fewest scoring chances allowed and fewest high danger scoring chances allowed. Those are facts, indisputable. You can continue to say anecdotally that the problem is the system or Laviolette, but the numbers and my own eyes say differently. Rinne is a bad goaltender, below league average in every way.

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03-07-2017, 02:17 PM
  #29
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I have no dog in this fight, but I think many times Rinne looks bad because of defensive breakdowns.....and he looks worse because he's a poor goaltender that can't overcome these breakdowns. Someone said it a few posts ago but Rinne just simply doesn't even look like an acceptable goalie right now. Whatever the results and stats are, he looks like a fish out of water. He's flailing around, overplaying pucks, consistently getting in bad position and looking like he's just hoping to block shots rather than actually play goaltender at the NHL level. Things like rebound control have completely gone by the way side and when you take these things into account, no, this does not describe a goalie capable of bailing out his team when the defense falls apart.

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03-07-2017, 02:20 PM
  #30
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Exactly, people want to blame defensive breakdowns, which every team has (most much more often than the Preds), because almost every single breakdown ends up in the back of the net. Because Rinne is awful at ice hockey. Great guy. Once upon a time a very good goalie, now atrocious

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03-07-2017, 02:50 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Mortiest Morty View Post
Exactly, people want to blame defensive breakdowns, which every team has (most much more often than the Preds), because almost every single breakdown ends up in the back of the net. Because Rinne is awful at ice hockey. Great guy. Once upon a time a very good goalie, now atrocious
Rinne of 5 years ago made many of those stops. now age has caught him and he is failing thats a given and should have been expected. But the number of oidd man rushes this team has allowed in the last two years is more than Rinne ever had to face. In a two on1 or three on one you cna expect a goal about 50% of the time even when a goalie is in there best years. but now Sarro's and Rinne are allowing better than 70% (WAG) in those situations. There is an issue in net but the D has an i s su e as well allowing so many odd man rushes and turnin the friggin puck over in the neutral zone.

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03-07-2017, 03:02 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Byrddog View Post
Rinne of 5 years ago made many of those stops. now age has caught him and he is failing thats a given and should have been expected. But the number of oidd man rushes this team has allowed in the last two years is more than Rinne ever had to face. In a two on1 or three on one you cna expect a goal about 50% of the time even when a goalie is in there best years. but now Sarro's and Rinne are allowing better than 70% (WAG) in those situations. There is an issue in net but the D has an i s su e as well allowing so many odd man rushes and turnin the friggin puck over in the neutral zone.
Nope, the Preds average far fewer high danger scoring chances against than most teams in the league and 2-on-1, 3-on-2, etc. that result in a good scoring chance are included in that. 3rd fewest total scoring chances allowed in the league. I refuse to accept this type of anecdotal evidence. I watch plenty of games from other teams and I don't see the Preds giving up an abnormal amount of high danger chances compared to the rest of the league and the actual numbers back that up.

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03-07-2017, 03:42 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Mortiest Morty View Post
Nope, the Preds average far fewer high danger scoring chances against than most teams in the league and 2-on-1, 3-on-2, etc. that result in a good scoring chance are included in that. 3rd fewest total scoring chances allowed in the league. I refuse to accept this type of anecdotal evidence. I watch plenty of games from other teams and I don't see the Preds giving up an abnormal amount of high danger chances compared to the rest of the league and the actual numbers back that up.
Its just as easy to refuse advanced stats you use. Because a team has 20 high danger scoreing chances does not mean 15 of them were on Craig Smiths stick who could not finish a happy meal. Im sure you access toi the number of odd man goals the team has allowed this year if so please provide that. If it is more than a handful with the number of close games they were scored in I would bet it cost the team 4 to 7 point which in reality right now would lock them in the playoffs.

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03-07-2017, 03:49 PM
  #34
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I'm just going by what I see. I haven't missed a game in over 5 years. Rinne hasn't been good this year by any means. He is still however in the top 15 in the league as far as goalies go. Not saying much really and if this team is going anywhere in the playoffs something needs to change in net. The elite goalies in this league make the big save when you need them. Rinne isn't doing that consistently right now and he is letting way to many softies in. That goal recently that was a back hander from almost the blue line was just awful. If I were the coach I would a have pulled him after giving up that goal no matter the situation. Pretty sure that was against Colorado and both goals in that game should have been stopped. Our only hope is he steps it up.

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03-07-2017, 03:54 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Byrddog View Post
Im sure you access toi the number of odd man goals the team has allowed this year if so please provide that. If it is more than a handful with the number of close games they were scored in I would bet it cost the team 4 to 7 point which in reality right now would lock them in the playoffs.
Why would the number of odd man goals allowed prove anything other than the fact that Rinne can't stop a decent scoring opportunity? Which is my point...

You know what would make an even bigger difference in picking up points? A starting goalie that doesn't suck ass.

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Originally Posted by Persona5 View Post
I'm just going by what I see. I haven't missed a game in over 5 years. Rinne hasn't been good this year by any means. He is still however in the top 15 in the league as far as goalies go.
I could name 15 goalies I'd take before Rinne, easily. One of them plays backup for the Preds. (More of an indictment of Rinne than a Saros vote of confidence)


Last edited by Mortiest Morty: 03-07-2017 at 04:29 PM.
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03-07-2017, 04:45 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Mortiest Morty View Post
Why would the number of odd man goals allowed prove anything other than the fact that Rinne can't stop a decent scoring opportunity? Which is my point...

You know what would make an even bigger difference in picking up points? A starting goalie that doesn't suck ass.



I could name 15 goalies I'd take before Rinne, easily. One of them plays backup for the Preds. (More of an indictment of Rinne than a Saros vote of confidence)
Hmmmm hard to argue with the second part. But winning games and picking up points is really the of following a team. All the advanced stats in the world do nothing when your guys can not gain enough points to make to the post season or to advance thru the playoffs. Robin Lerner has the 9th best save % and 2.59 GGA 22nd in rthe league and hes gonna be golfin pretty soon looks like. Yes I follow Buffalo too.

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03-08-2017, 01:57 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
My question though is if the D is more susceptible to breakdowns because of the aggressive system that Lavy preaches, why was Rinne an absolutely world-class goalie before the injury in the first system's first year (14-15) but this season he looks like hot garbage?
Because of injury, age, and durability. Also he hasn't been hot garbage at all this year, as of late he's been bad, but he was top 10 in GAA and Sv% a few times this season, while still being a top 10 goalie in non-traditional goalie abilities.

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03-08-2017, 02:06 AM
  #38
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For those who are using advanced stats without context. Let me explain thoroughly. We are among one of the best teams at preventing high danger chances, but you have to factor the type of high danger. Is it a simple slot shot that the goalie can see? Or is it a breakaway, one timer, extremely heavy screen, deflection, etc.? Because I've yet to see Rinne face a single visible slot shot, as all of them have been insanely difficult ones. Also factor in initial and secondary high danger chances. There was one site that is down this year, and it was the only site that showed initial and secondary chances. Preds last season were the best team in the entire league at preventing secondary high danger chances 5 on 5, but were a bottom 10 team in preventing initial. Eye test also supports this claim.

Also being the best team in preventing secondary high danger chances isn't purely on defense:

1. Defense clearing rebounds plays a big role.
2. But so does the goalie actually not allowing a rebound, which Rinne is among the elites in that category freezing nearly 40% of the initial shots that is directed at him (Holtby, Rask, and Bishop are among the elites as well. Crawford, Ward, Pavelec, and Greiss are among the worst in freezing initial shots. Hellebuyck, Schneider, Price, and Anderson are among the middle tier).
3. Also depends on where the goalie kicks out the rebound. Talbot and Rinne when they do give up bad rebounds usually kick it to the point, as opposed to let's say Crawford or Pavelec who kicks it right next to them the slot.
4. The goalie playing the puck also plays a strong role (Which again Rinne is one of the best in the league at).
5. Goaltending positioning, athleticism, and size all play a role (Which again Rinne is among the better goalies in that category).
6. You can't have a secondary chance if the initial chance is a goal, and with how poor Rinne's HDSv% is, it makes sense as he usually allows the initial shot in, so that evaporates a secondary chance.

There I explained and cleared it up for everyone.

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03-08-2017, 02:08 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortiest Morty View Post
Why would the number of odd man goals allowed prove anything other than the fact that Rinne can't stop a decent scoring opportunity? Which is my point...

You know what would make an even bigger difference in picking up points? A starting goalie that doesn't suck ass.



I could name 15 goalies I'd take before Rinne, easily. One of them plays backup for the Preds. (More of an indictment of Rinne than a Saros vote of confidence)
1. Price
2. Holtby
3. Bishop
4. Schneider
5. Lundqvist
6. Talbot
7. Gibson
8. Anderson
9. Andersen
10. Crawford (And even then not in our system).
11. Bobrovsky
12. Jones

I'd only take them before Rinne.

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03-08-2017, 03:30 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by RainierBeat View Post
1. Price
2. Holtby
3. Bishop
4. Schneider
5. Lundqvist
6. Talbot
7. Gibson
8. Anderson
9. Andersen
10. Crawford (And even then not in our system).
11. Bobrovsky
12. Jones

I'd only take them before Rinne.
Quick if he's healthy and Mat Murray I would put on that list, which puts you pretty close to 15, and I only spent about 2 seconds thinking about it. Oh and you don't have Dubs on the list, which most people would put above Rinne right now.


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03-08-2017, 03:40 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by RainierBeat View Post
For those who are using advanced stats without context. Let me explain thoroughly. We are among one of the best teams at preventing high danger chances, but you have to factor the type of high danger. Is it a simple slot shot that the goalie can see? Or is it a breakaway, one timer, extremely heavy screen, deflection, etc.? Because I've yet to see Rinne face a single visible slot shot, as all of them have been insanely difficult ones. Also factor in initial and secondary high danger chances. There was one site that is down this year, and it was the only site that showed initial and secondary chances. Preds last season were the best team in the entire league at preventing secondary high danger chances 5 on 5, but were a bottom 10 team in preventing initial. Eye test also supports this claim.

Also being the best team in preventing secondary high danger chances isn't purely on defense:

1. Defense clearing rebounds plays a big role.
2. But so does the goalie actually not allowing a rebound, which Rinne is among the elites in that category freezing nearly 40% of the initial shots that is directed at him (Holtby, Rask, and Bishop are among the elites as well. Crawford, Ward, Pavelec, and Greiss are among the worst in freezing initial shots. Hellebuyck, Schneider, Price, and Anderson are among the middle tier).
3. Also depends on where the goalie kicks out the rebound. Talbot and Rinne when they do give up bad rebounds usually kick it to the point, as opposed to let's say Crawford or Pavelec who kicks it right next to them the slot.
4. The goalie playing the puck also plays a strong role (Which again Rinne is one of the best in the league at).
5. Goaltending positioning, athleticism, and size all play a role (Which again Rinne is among the better goalies in that category).
6. You can't have a secondary chance if the initial chance is a goal, and with how poor Rinne's HDSv% is, it makes sense as he usually allows the initial shot in, so that evaporates a secondary chance.

There I explained and cleared it up for everyone.
Rinne's rebound control has been pretty bad this year, with several I can remember in just the last two weeks that went right out to the slot. The other big factor is his softies, he's had some seriously bad ones this season, and multiples in several games. Shoot he had a game, I think it was two weeks ago where he gave up what most considered the softest goal they have ever seen, only to top it later in the game.

When Rinne plays well he can be solid, but when he is off, he is really off, and here lately he's been off more than he has been on.

Any way you want to look at it, bad defense, high danger shots, break down how you want, but when you are paying a goalie 7 million a season you expect him to stop goals he shouldn't sometimes, and certainly not to be giving up enough softies that the team has to score 3 just to have any reliable chance of winning.

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03-08-2017, 03:45 AM
  #42
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Rinne's rebound control has been pretty bad this year, with several I can remember in just the last two weeks that went right out to the slot. The other big factor is his softies, he's had some seriously bad ones this season, and multiples in several games. Shoot he had a game, I think it was two weeks ago where he gave up whst most considered the softies goal they have ever seen, only to top it later in the game.

When Rinne plays well he can be solid, but when he is off, he is really off, and here lately he's been off more than he has been on.

Anyway you want to look at it, bad defense, high danger shots, break down how you want, but when you are paying a goalie 7 million a season you expect him to stop goals he shouldn't sometimes, and certainly not to be giving up enough softies that the team has to score 3 just to have any reliable chance if winning.
I think Rinne freezed like 38% of his shots last seaosn, whereas it's getting weaker this season, but I still feel it's a strength. Trust me watch Allen, Crawford, Elliott, oh god Rinne still makes them look like ECHL goalies in rebound control. But I agree everything about Rinne is declining, and Rinne the last 2 weeks from Corsica.hockey faced like 2 extra HDSA/60 5 on 5 (He used to face less than 5, now it's a little more than 5 per 5 on 5 than usual, and counting just the last two weeks is in the 7 zone), which I agree is caused because he's been giving up bad rebounds.

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03-08-2017, 07:01 AM
  #43
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Prime Rinne didn't care about defensive breakdowns. Remember all the interviews in which we were told how much better he does with the more shots he sees? Either it was never true and the (supposed) poor defense of late has exposed that lie, or it used to be true and Rinne is just older, slower, poorer of eyesight, distracted of mind, and not getting effective advice/coaching.

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03-08-2017, 07:26 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by RainierBeat View Post
1. Price
2. Holtby
3. Bishop
4. Schneider
5. Lundqvist
6. Talbot
7. Gibson
8. Anderson
9. Andersen
10. Crawford (And even then not in our system).
11. Bobrovsky
12. Jones

I'd only take them before Rinne.
Curious you would put Lundqvist in the top 5 he is experiencing aging in a mirror image of Rinne the difference he has Raanta to relieve him since 2010 Hank has played 60 games per and this year will be below 60. He has times of looking just horrible and at times hes the top 5 goalie of the past pretty similar to Rinne really. The real difference in the situation for the Rags, Raanta hes now 27 did not play his first NHL game til age 23 and has not had a single year in the NHL where he lost more games than he won. This is not meant to be a beat up on Sarro's but to give an example of how Raanta was given time to develop and worked in to a starting position which he could get as soon as next season playing more games than Hank. It will be a pity if Sarro's fails because of this because Poile had other options. Its still not too late he could sign a UFA goalie in the offseason and give Sarros a year which would make all the difference. But as we all know Poile will probably not do that he will roll the dice with another kid and it may well ruin him.

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03-08-2017, 01:43 PM
  #45
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Question to anyone who watches other teams as well.

Are the high danger zone chances we give worse than what other teams give up? I mean, we give up little, but could they be more dangerous?

We often seem to collapse pretty close to Rinne, which leads to our guys focusing on the puck too much, which leads to pretty damn good chances when opposing team players can sneak up that close to the net.

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03-08-2017, 02:20 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Gh24 View Post
Question to anyone who watches other teams as well.

Are the high danger zone chances we give worse than what other teams give up? I mean, we give up little, but could they be more dangerous?

We often seem to collapse pretty close to Rinne, which leads to our guys focusing on the puck too much, which leads to pretty damn good chances when opposing team players can sneak up that close to the net.
Eh frankly I think we are guilty of a bit of tunnel vision in that regard. Even the best teams give up high quality chances in the game, that's why a good goalie is important. Just in the games I've watched, I don't think ours are any worse than the norm. I think we just tend to think they are because it's our team so it's magnified.

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03-08-2017, 04:10 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post

Eh frankly I think we are guilty of a bit of tunnel vision in that regard. Even the best teams give up high quality chances in the game, that's why a good goalie is important. Just in the games I've watched, I don't think ours are any worse than the norm. I think we just tend to think they are because it's our team so it's magnified.
And this right here sums up every bit of message board hysteria, regardless of team.

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03-08-2017, 07:06 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Gh24 View Post
Question to anyone who watches other teams as well.

Are the high danger zone chances we give worse than what other teams give up? I mean, we give up little, but could they be more dangerous?

We often seem to collapse pretty close to Rinne, which leads to our guys focusing on the puck too much, which leads to pretty damn good chances when opposing team players can sneak up that close to the net.
No, not at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeat View Post
1. Price
2. Holtby
3. Bishop
4. Schneider
5. Lundqvist
6. Talbot
7. Gibson
8. Anderson
9. Andersen
10. Crawford (And even then not in our system).
11. Bobrovsky
12. Jones

I'd only take them before Rinne.
Well, that is a terrible list. Off the top of my head, here are 8 goalies that you're missing that are without a doubt better than Rinne has been the past 2.5 years. I could name more if I cared to take the time to actually think about it.



Mason (Tough year this year behind a train wreck Philly team, but SOUNDLY better than Rinne the past two years behind a much worse D)
Rask
Quick
Dubnyk
Murray
Luongo
Miller (Yes, much maligned Canuck Ryan Miller, is better than Rinne. Damn Rinne, you're bad at hockey)
Reimer (If you're naming Cam Talbot based on a couple of decent seasons as a starter, Reimer belongs there as well...)

There are also a fair number of backups I would take over Rinne, but I'll leave them out for now.


Last edited by Mortiest Morty: 03-08-2017 at 07:13 PM.
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03-09-2017, 08:37 AM
  #49
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Rinne is in clear decline but not as bad as some say, while Saros is not The Man as some think in only 16 games. Rinne was even the #1 star of the month in the season.

I just wish they rested Rinne much more hoping to have 2016 playoffs Rinne.

Be an interesting offseason. Selfishlessly I'd love one more season here for Rinne before he heads off to a great retirement.

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03-09-2017, 09:37 AM
  #50
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Goaltenders that are better than Rinne

Price
Rask
Schneider
Anderson
Andersen
Dubnyk
Jones
Quick
Bishop
Talbot
Vaseleski
Crawford
Murray
Reimer
Gibson

That's off the top of my head.

Team defense (especially forward coverage) and goaltending have been our biggest issues this year.

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