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Phoenix CXXIV: Is there a statute of limitations on Perjury in Arizona?

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Old
03-08-2017, 10:51 AM
  #51
JimAnchower
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Yep. And, it's worse now because of the way the SCC is working with the potential of a Key remodel.

Fascinating to watch Bettman posturing. He has no leverage. AZ Legislature apparently is more likely to wave them good-bye than to give them $$ to stay. But, Bettman, Barroway and the others have to keep screaming.

Partially because they really have no perfect place to go...

As before:
Stay in GRA? = Losses, about which they have now been very public, and can't walk back at all.
Portland? = Sale for a cheap price, which would not fulfill GB's promise that the owners won't lose anything by buying the Yotes out of bankruptcy.
Seattle? = No idea what there is to work with there. SCC doesn't know what it wants to do. There may or may not even be a temp facility available.
Quebec? = Perfect in every way except where it sits on the planet.

Choose, but it's like picking poison. Ha ha ha ha ha

Bettman and his minions have backed themselves into a tough spot this time.
As a last ditch possibility, I wonder if reports throw out TSA and AVMC, again, to see if they can "negotiate" with Glendale. It may not come directly from LeBlanc or Barroway, but "sources".

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03-08-2017, 10:54 AM
  #52
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I really think we have finally come to the end of this saga. Bettman's statement allows no wiggle room.

Quote:
"The Arizona Coyotes must have a new arena location to succeed," Bettman wrote. "The Coyotes cannot and will not remain in Glendale."
Maybe the Arizona Senate will cave but I doubt it.

Quote:
"While I very much want to see the Coyotes remain in Arizona, what they're asking for is no small thing," Mesnard said. "The NHL first needs to make the case for a state-funded arena to the taxpayers. We're not seeing a lot of enthusiasm that the public wants to foot the bill for a new arena, and until the NHL can win over taxpayers, they’re going to have a tough sell at the Legislature."
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...rena/98881006/

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03-08-2017, 10:57 AM
  #53
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Haven't been here in years. Suddenly feel the urge to come back. Where's the popcorn?

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03-08-2017, 11:00 AM
  #54
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Haven't been here in years. Suddenly feel the urge to come back. Where's the popcorn?

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03-08-2017, 11:07 AM
  #55
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BRUNT: NHL CAN’T WORK IN ARIZONA, BUT ALSO SKEPTICAL OF SEATTLE & QUEBEC

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/b...eattle-quebec/

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03-08-2017, 11:08 AM
  #56
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If the team is going to have to move, i only see it being either Portland or Seattle. I do not see it being quebec. 14/17 alignment is something i don't think the NHL wants.

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03-08-2017, 11:08 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
The whole thing just feels so Micky Mouse that I dont see why any lukewarm American city on hockey, in the future would feel comfortable dealing with this league? At this point, I honestly feel MLS has their operation more together than the NHL.

The worse is that the NHL will probaly be successful ing etting Average-hockey-fan to believe their narrative that its Glendale's fault and not the NHL's mistakes over the past 25 years.
Yeah, however if you visit the Coyotes board here on hf, most being pretty objective about it, well aware of who's really responsible for this mess & obviously pretty upset with the NHL & IA. Beyond sad reading a lot of those posts. Heartbreaking. Very similar to the situation in Atlanta as it unwound, Hartford, Quebec & Winnipeg 25+ years ago. And while the paradigm with respect to public funding of arenas' & stadiums does seem to be shifting, never underestimate the stupidity of the political class who make Hay with sports related mega projects ... like the Mayor of Phoenix, Stanton... who talks out of both sides of his mouth ignoring the realities that a shared Suns/Coyotes facility is a non-starter, simply wont work for the 2 teams without single ownership... or State Senator Worsley who's gone so far down a labyrinth of rabbit hole's in trying to ram this thing through as to be living in a parallel universe, asking his colleagues to commit political suicide, Hari~Kari, follow him over the edge, "wont cost a dime"... and they do this because it gets them a tonne of face-time, ego driven, issues of "legacy" & contribution, sometimes self-dealing (which may indeed be part of Worsleys motivation), they know that in most cases they'll be gone from office, dust by the time it all blows up, leave it to the next generation to clean up.

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03-08-2017, 11:09 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Could be. It could also be the winds of change are blowing in the political environment, and fewer and fewer cities and states are going to pay for teams.

It's changing in NFL: Kronke's palace in LA - private. Oakland and SD have said "no". Vegas is a special case in my mind.

NHL: Arizona is saying 'no'. KC has been saying "no special lease favors" for a long time.

At least, I hope.

And, it's a bad time to be Bettman, because his broadcast rights are going to be worth less, not more, the next time around, and NHL does not seem to see that coming. And, their app is worthless, when a good streaming app is what they really need. So, less Central Revenues yet means even more pressure on the smaller, newer markets. Really. It's bad.

And, MLS is coming. And, even if MLS doesn't pass NHL, it sure will create a lot of competition in southern markets especially.
Are you talking about the next US tv deal? Keep in mind that the league is only getting 200 million a year right now. They signed the deal right before the big boom in TV rights contracts. Worst possible time for the NHL. So even if cable TV struggles and loses subscribers and viewers in the upcoming years it will still be worth more than the measly 200 mill they are getting now.

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03-08-2017, 11:09 AM
  #59
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So is the issue with the team not being able to survive in Glendale the fault of the NHL, Glendale, or Arizona?

Or is it the magical fourth option that I'm not thinking of?

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03-08-2017, 11:12 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by objectiveposter View Post
Are you talking about the next US tv deal? Keep in mind that the league is only getting 200 million a year right now. They signed the deal right before the big boom in TV rights contracts. Worst possible time for the NHL. So even if cable TV struggles and loses subscribers and viewers in the upcoming years it will still be worth more than the measly 200 mill they are getting now.
I respectfully disagree. If Rogers is wishing they hadn't paid in Canada, I am sure NBC won't offer 200M/yr again.

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03-08-2017, 11:12 AM
  #61
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http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Hockey/NH.../22709061.html

“This bill will create jobs and sustainable growth while ensuring that NHL hockey remains a strong and vibrant tourism and entertainment alternative for the 6 million residents of Arizona,” Bettman wrote.

***

More like 7 million now in 2017, but who's counting when Bettman can't count.

My point is, all 7 million people are not hockey fans, and all 7 million are not going to travel to ( place new arena location city here ) to watch hockey. Because if they all had done this in the past, we wouldn't be having conversations about the team leaving Glendale.

Hockey fans in most places are a small percentage of the population and it should be unreasonable for a state government to hand over millions of dollars to appease a small percentage of taxpayers, more so when those taxpayers have already spent millions on an arena that has nothing wrong with it. I honestly will be "chin on the floor" if the gov't gives IA and the NHL the money for yet another arena.

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03-08-2017, 11:16 AM
  #62
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I really think we have finally come to the end of this saga. Bettman's statement allows no wiggle room.
it also clearly indicates who is actually calling the shots ... lest there have been any doubt.

these reports of payroll shortfalls / cashcalls are quite troublesome indeed. and certainly undermine IAs credibility in claiming to be able to come up with $170M.

what a mess.

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03-08-2017, 11:17 AM
  #63
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Where is Chris Hansen? He needs to prove to Murray he can get a team

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03-08-2017, 11:18 AM
  #64
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If the team is going to have to move, i only see it being either Portland or Seattle. I do not see it being quebec. 14/17 alignment is something i don't think the NHL wants.
Maybe seattle should stop all the nonsense if they want a team.

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03-08-2017, 11:25 AM
  #65
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I respectfully disagree. If Rogers is wishing they hadn't paid in Canada, I am sure NBC won't offer 200M/yr again.
I think the networks that signed recent deals like Rogers and ESPN with the NBA are regretting it. NBC signed their deal years ago when TV deals were a lot less lucrative. To put things in perspective the NBA is getting 2.6 BILLION per season for their US tv deal. NHL gets 200 million. If the rights expired today there in no question the NHL would get more than 200 million. The Rogers deal, on the other hand, might be worth less the next time.

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03-08-2017, 11:25 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
The whole thing just feels so Micky Mouse that I dont see why any lukewarm American city on hockey, in the future would feel comfortable dealing with this league? At this point, I honestly feel MLS has their operation more together than the NHL.

The worse is that the NHL will probaly be successful ing etting Average-hockey-fan to believe their narrative that its Glendale's fault and not the NHL's mistakes over the past 25 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Could be. It could also be the winds of change are blowing in the political environment, and fewer and fewer cities and states are going to pay for teams.

It's changing in NFL: Kronke's palace in LA - private. Oakland and SD have said "no". Vegas is a special case in my mind.

NHL: Arizona is saying 'no'. KC has been saying "no special lease favors" for a long time.

At least, I hope.

And, it's a bad time to be Bettman, because his broadcast rights are going to be worth less, not more, the next time around, and NHL does not seem to see that coming. And, their app is worthless, when a good streaming app is what they really need. So, less Central Revenues yet means even more pressure on the smaller, newer markets. Really. It's bad.

And, MLS is coming. And, even if MLS doesn't pass NHL, it sure will create a lot of competition in southern markets especially.
Think its obvious the next lockout will be the end of the NHL as a major sport.

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03-08-2017, 11:26 AM
  #67
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I voted that the Coyotes move. I hate seeing franchises up & leave, alienating fanbases, but the bottom line is that you can't just keep building arenas every time you get a bum deal. It's not cost effective, and you wind up with a white elephant if the team leaves anyway.
Yeah, leaving a smoking crater in their wake... cant go back there for decades & if they do and consider... Atlanta Redux.... just forget it. Here in this case, so poisoned
the market, economic terrorists, why would you want to subject your taxpayers to any more of it? Just get the #### out already. Really dont need you that badly.

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I honestly will be "chin on the floor" if the gov't gives IA and the NHL the money for yet another arena.
Ditto. Beyond folly. That Poll that was released last week, that I think the real turning point, road spikes that derailed the entire process which frighteningly appeared to be on-track to be fast tracked & rubber-stamped. Up until then, only timid & polite opposition to Worsleys' Bill. Appalling situation. That it's even come as far as it has speaks to the stupidity of a number of the States elected officials. Just how naive, dumb can you get? No idea what went down in Glendale? No idea what adding a 3rd big league indoor arena would do to an already over-crowded & over-inventoried market? Just insane. Waste of the Legislature time for Christs sake. Its just so insane that Im almost convinced its all part of cover-op for the league to bail. Blaming the State knowing full well it was a no-hope forlorn mission, blaming Glendale who we now also hear had a meeting with IA just last week, and no, no hope, no chance there for any reconciliation. And how could there ever be when one side no matter what wont reconcile, wont accept responsibility for themselves & their business?... so obviously have other agendas, some hidden, cant trust.


Last edited by Killion: 03-08-2017 at 11:33 AM.
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03-08-2017, 11:26 AM
  #68
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So is the issue with the team not being able to survive in Glendale the fault of the NHL, Glendale, or Arizona?

Or is it the magical fourth option that I'm not thinking of?
If you ask me, trying to be objective I will list the fault chain as follows:


NHL/IceArizona - The NHL's extortion money demanded from Glendale before IceArizona took over crippled the city. There's no other way around it. When IA demanded the $15M/year subsidy on top of all of that, it was an unreasonable added weight that only came about because the NHL did what they are doing today - threatened to immediately move the team. Then, once IA assumed the ownership title, they repaid Glendale's extreme measures to keep the team in Arizona by being lax in their lease responsibilities, failing to meet their requirements, and brainlessly engaging in a conflict of interest by hiring ex-Glendale officials on staff. In short, they had the best possible situation - being paid to play hockey by their host city - and futzed it away by being moronic.

Glendale - Glendale should never have paid the NHL's ransom money. Better to let the team leave than to blow their feet off with a shotgun. But they did, because the Glendale City Council of Elaine Scruggs' tenure were simply delusional about the effect of sports on their suburban city. Beyond the Coyotes' boondoggle, they sold their souls to the Bidwill family to attract the Cardinals, and their Spring Training facilities at Camelback Ranch remain one of the worst drains on their city's solvency. The new council is far from perfect and suffers from the same small-town political delusions, but they are certainly an improvement over the crew they replaced. They were able to wiggle out from under the terrible lease agreement by using the conflict of interest loophole and essentially blackmailing the team by threatening to publish the full Compliance Review report, which, if it were ever released, would probably kill for now and for always any chance IA could make a deal with any other Arizona city.

Arizona - Listed as number three but should be far, far lower. I am biased as an Arizona resident and Coyotes fan, I'll admit it. But if you stack up all of the challenges the NHL left the franchise to deal with in a list over the past 20 years, you probably would be shocked that the team's still here even WITHOUT the bankruptcy and its subsequent events. We have critics in these threads who say that Arizona would never work as a hockey market. I will say that this market is a tough one for EVERYTHING. Residents of Arizona are notoriously fickle and fair-weather. Every consumer entertainment property in Arizona knows this and has suffered through peaks and valleys accordingly. But in 20 years the Coyotes have never known stable ownership by anyone even remotely either a) interested in hockey or b) capable of financing a professional team. NEVER. And over that time, the team has had perhaps three good years, outliers in a morass of uninspiring, middling, and at times stupendously awful on-ice performance. Southern markets are behind the 8-ball by nature, but the combination of a sudden relocation from Canada, a terrible lease downtown, and then what can only be termed a comedy of errors extending from the moment the team changed hands to Ellman and Moyes until today... well, I would challenge any hockey market in existence outside of maybe Toronto to survive that. No other hockey market ever has.

So if Arizona fails, it will not be by nature, but by nurture - or the lack thereof.


Last edited by The Feckless Puck: 03-08-2017 at 11:31 AM. Reason: revised for easier reading
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03-08-2017, 11:31 AM
  #69
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Yeah, however if you visit the Coyotes board here on hf, most being pretty objective about it, well aware of who's really responsible for this mess & obviously pretty upset with the NHL & IA. Beyond sad reading a lot of those posts. Heartbreaking. Very similar to the situation in Atlanta as it unwound, Hartford, Quebec & Winnipeg 25+ years ago. And while the paradigm with respect to public funding of arenas' & stadiums does seem to be shifting, never underestimate the stupidity of the political class who make Hay with sports related mega projects ... like the Mayor of Phoenix, Stanton... who talks out of both sides of his mouth ignoring the realities that a shared Suns/Coyotes facility is a non-starter, simply wont work for the 2 teams without single ownership... or State Senator Worsley who's gone so far down a labyrinth of rabbit hole's in trying to ram this thing through as to be living in a parallel universe, asking his colleagues to commit political suicide, Hari~Kari, follow him over the edge, "wont cost a dime"... and they do this because it gets them a tonne of face-time, ego driven, issues of "legacy" & contribution, sometimes self-dealing (which may indeed be part of Worsleys motivation), they know that in most cases they'll be gone from office, dust by the time it all blows up, leave it to the next generation to clean up.
The NBA Lakers and Clippers are owned by separate groups but both play in the Staples Center. Maybe it can work for the Suns and Coyotes to share a facility.

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03-08-2017, 11:34 AM
  #70
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The NBA Lakers and Clippers are owned by separate groups but both play in the Staples Center. Maybe it can work for the Suns and Coyotes to share a facility.
Two basketball teams sharing a basketball arena is one thing - a hockey/NBA partnership is quite another. Rarely does that work. It only works in LA at Staples because AEG owns both the Kings and Lakers.

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03-08-2017, 11:38 AM
  #71
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The NBA Lakers and Clippers are owned by separate groups but both play in the Staples Center. Maybe it can work for the Suns and Coyotes to share a facility.
NBA teams share $2,600,000,000 in TV revenues each year.

There is a massive difference between the leagues. NBA teams don't survive on popcorn and parking, like NHL teams do.

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03-08-2017, 11:39 AM
  #72
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The NBA Lakers and Clippers are owned by separate groups but both play in the Staples Center. Maybe it can work for the Suns and Coyotes to share a facility.
The Lakers, Clippers and Kings are all in LOS ANGELES.

We are talking about Phoenix. The Suns survive for one reason: They get all the money associated with their arena. There is simply not enough BB $$ to raise ticket prices enough to make them viable without that bonus in their arena deal. The Coyotes can't even make it like that, and in fact lost money in Glendale despite a 15M/yr subsidy. The want a new arena WITH A SUBSIDY.

So, the conclusion is that BOTH teams need generous leases, and it's not possible to give them both one of those at the same time.

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03-08-2017, 11:39 AM
  #73
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So is the issue with the team not being able to survive in Glendale the fault of the NHL, Glendale, or Arizona?

Or is it the magical fourth option that I'm not thinking of?
.... well welcome ArGarBarGar... depends on who you listen to of course but ultimately the buck stops on the NHL's desk. Mess of a situation beginning in 1996 when the club was hastily dropped into the then called AWA in downtown Phoenix. Ever since, a not so funny comedy of errors. Glendale has done more than its part, fair share... and for doing so, the thanks their getting is to be Scapegoated by IA & by the NHL who are now about to do the same with the State if they dont have their way with the taxpayers.... and thats pretty much it in a nutshell. Readers Digest version.

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03-08-2017, 11:40 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
it also clearly indicates who is actually calling the shots ... lest there have been any doubt.

these reports of payroll shortfalls / cashcalls are quite troublesome indeed. and certainly undermine IAs credibility in claiming to be able to come up with $170M.

what a mess.
Did anyone on hf actually think they had that money? I think even wishful Coyotes fans didnt believe that?

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03-08-2017, 11:45 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by DowntownBooster View Post
The NBA Lakers and Clippers are owned by separate groups but both play in the Staples Center. Maybe it can work for the Suns and Coyotes to share a facility.
... totally different situations....

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Feckless Puck View Post
Two basketball teams sharing a basketball arena is one thing - a hockey/NBA partnership is quite another. Rarely does that work. It only works in LA at Staples because AEG owns both the Kings and Lakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
NBA teams share $2,600,000,000 in TV revenues each year.

There is a massive difference between the leagues. NBA teams don't survive on popcorn and parking, like NHL teams do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
The Lakers, Clippers and Kings are all in LOS ANGELES.

We are talking about Phoenix. The Suns survive for one reason: They get all the money associated with their arena. There is simply not enough BB $$ to raise ticket prices enough to make them viable without that bonus in their arena deal. The Coyotes can't even make it like that, and in fact lost money in Glendale despite a 15M/yr subsidy. The want a new arena WITH A SUBSIDY.

So, the conclusion is that BOTH teams need generous leases, and it's not possible to give them both one of those at the same time.
... just not on DB. Sarver, owner of the Suns etc, he's not Ballmer rich, not in a position to give-up much needed revenues, tough enough for him to operate in the black as it is, compete. He's in the birdseat here over any new arena, the current Mayor Stanton who keeps pressing for a shared facility ignoring the realities, impossibility of a shared facility given both the NBA's & NHL's business models.

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