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Chevy Discussions [next moves, his future, etc] - Part III

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Old
03-09-2017, 04:03 PM
  #26
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Wheeler for Lindholm.

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Old
03-09-2017, 04:22 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
Dallas made their's worse so that's something to hang our hat on
Here's the thing. Here's the guys this board (myself and others) have pushed for (at various times) that combined with the Pavelec buyout would have been cheaper than Pavelec.

Deven Dubnyk (yes I and others pointed out how he actually had decent to good numbers mostly in Edmonton)
Thomas Greiss
Anton Khudobin
Antti Raanta
Michal Neuvirth

Sure there's some up and down with guys like Khudobin and Neuvirth who run really hot and cold but on the whole I take anyone on that list over Pavelec. That's just the guys who've hit FA and were bargain guys that would have come at less than 1/3 of Pavelec's salary.

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03-09-2017, 05:18 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Flair Hay View Post
Dallas made their's worse so that's something to hang our hat on
Jets Team SV%:
16-17 .897 (29th)
15-16 .903 (28th)
14-15 .913 (10th)
13-14 .907 (24th)
12-13 .901 (21st)
11-12 .902 (25th)

I don't know how much hat-hanging we can do with that track record. The Jets braintrust has somehow managed to take already garbage goaltending and make it even worse! And there are people on this board who argue against even firing Flaherty?

You can't sit on that kind of goaltending for 6 seasons and not take some drastic measures. There's no way "just draft and develop a starter" is an acceptable answer to the Jets goaltending problems. Heads need to roll.

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Old
03-09-2017, 05:21 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
Jets Team SV%:
16-17 .897 (29th)
15-16 .903 (28th)
14-15 .913 (10th)
13-14 .907 (24th)
12-13 .901 (21st)
11-12 .902 (25th)

I don't know how much hat-hanging we can do with that track record. The Jets braintrust has somehow managed to take already garbage goaltending and make it even worse! And there are people on this board who argue against even firing Flaherty?

You can't sit on that kind of goaltending for 6 seasons and not take some drastic measures. There's no way "just draft and develop a starter" is an acceptable answer to the Jets goaltending problems. Heads need to roll.
Pavelecs head is in the guillotine right now as we speak.

One can only hope Chevy shops wisely this summer

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Old
03-09-2017, 06:01 PM
  #30
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I really wish we had started the season with Pavs backing up Hellebuyck, not Hutch. I know it's not ideal but it was a better option, one I believe would have us a few points closer to a wild card spot.

While Pavs is not an NHL starter, he has assumed the role for most his career, he had the most experience of the 3. Hutch has never been a starter in the league, and probably saw Pavs demotion to the Moose as his opportunity to capture a number one spot. Instead of coming into the year with the mindset of being a solid backup and support the rookie starter, he came trying to hold that number one spot. I think it added pressure to his game, and ended up making him practically useless as a backup.

Pavs would have came in with his same mindset, and while Helly struggled, he would have assumed the role he was comfortable with. And whether he played well or not, he would probably be a little more relaxed and provided a better support for a young struggling goalie.n

Instead, Helly had a backup as lost as he was. After Pavs stint, I thought Helly had his best run of games. Pavs knows how to handle adversity and losing, its pretty much been his entire career and I can garauntee you he probably slept like a baby through all it.

Chevy will most certainly find a better support option this off season, I will be shocked if he doesnt.

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03-09-2017, 06:11 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by MrBoJangelz71 View Post
I really wish we had started the season with Pavs backing up Hellebuyck, not Hutch. I know it's not ideal but it was a better option, one I believe would have us a few points closer to a wild card spot.

While Pavs is not an NHL starter, he has assumed the role for most his career, he had the most experience of the 3. Hutch has never been a starter in the league, and probably saw Pavs demotion to the Moose as his opportunity to capture a number one spot. Instead of coming into the year with the mindset of being a solid backup and support the rookie starter, he came trying to hold that number one spot. I think it added pressure to his game, and ended up making him practically useless as a backup.

Pavs would have came in with his same mindset, and while Helly struggled, he would have assumed the role he was comfortable with. And whether he played well or not, he would probably be a little more relaxed and provided a better support for a young struggling goalie.n

Instead, Helly had a backup as lost as he was. After Pavs stint, I thought Helly had his best run of games. Pavs knows how to handle adversity and losing, its pretty much been his entire career and I can garauntee you he probably slept like a baby through all it.

Chevy will most certainly find a better support option this off season, I will be shocked if he doesnt.
You'd have been hard pressed to find anyone who would agree with that point at the start of the season. It's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight but who thought Helle and Hutch would be that bad this year? Can't say I remember hearing a word from anyone at the start of the season about that.

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03-09-2017, 06:11 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
He has done some things.

Signed Montoya
Signed Hutchinson
Traded for Budaj
Drafted Hellebuyck & Comrie among others

It's not that he hasn't done anything. It's that he hasn't solved the problem yet. He had his albatross Pavelec contract limiting his options........until now. We'll see what happens this offseason.
Yeah and in six years, way too little progress has been made in rectifying this problem. At least on the surface it looks like Toronto has essentially expedited a franchise rebuild via drafting and prospects in two years time while the Jets continue to flounder after six...

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03-09-2017, 06:13 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
Jets Team SV%:
16-17 .897 (29th)
15-16 .903 (28th)
14-15 .913 (10th)
13-14 .907 (24th)
12-13 .901 (21st)
11-12 .902 (25th)

I don't know how much hat-hanging we can do with that track record. The Jets braintrust has somehow managed to take already garbage goaltending and make it even worse! And there are people on this board who argue against even firing Flaherty?

You can't sit on that kind of goaltending for 6 seasons and not take some drastic measures. There's no way "just draft and develop a starter" is an acceptable answer to the Jets goaltending problems. Heads need to roll.
We might have to face the reality they may not actually know how to fix it.

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Old
03-09-2017, 06:22 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by paul-laus View Post
Yeah and in six years, way too little progress has been made in rectifying this problem. At least on the surface it looks like Toronto has essentially expedited a franchise rebuild via drafting and prospects in two years time while the Jets continue to flounder after six...
two years? Try more like 11.

In the pre-cap era of the late 90's and early 2000's the Leafs had 6 straight years of playoffs which included 1 conference title and 2 conference finals appearances. In the Cap-era they have had 1 playoff appearance in 11 seasons.

You can try and lump us in with the Thrashers but I'd say a completely new ownership group is not the same franchise. So we have had 6 years with 1 playoffs appearance. Obviously not good but to say it has only taken the leafs 2 years to turn their ship around is underselling the pain that franchise has brought it's fans over the past 11 years. 2 yours to turn the ship around but another 9 years of drowning in ankle deep water.

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03-09-2017, 06:23 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Daximus View Post
You'd have been hard pressed to find anyone who would agree with that point at the start of the season. It's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight but who thought Helle and Hutch would be that bad this year? Can't say I remember hearing a word from anyone at the start of the season about that.
I think a few where thinking it, but refrained from saying anything for fear of being lynched.

I have been a Pavs defender around here, and believe he is closer to being an NHL goalie than Hutch. I wanted Pavs as the backup, but I believed Hellebuyck was ready this season and either backup was not going to relied heavily on.

My hope for next season was Comrie would be ready to backup Helly, but after this season you would be pretty naive to think thats a smart idea.

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Old
03-09-2017, 06:26 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MrBoJangelz71 View Post
I think a few where thinking it, but refrained from saying anything for fear of being lynched.

I have been a Pavs defender around here, and believe he is closer to being an NHL goalie than Hutch. I wanted Pavs as the backup, but I believed Hellebuyck was ready this season and either backup was not going to relied heavily on.

My hope for next season was Comrie would be ready to backup Helly, but after this season you would be pretty naive to think thats a smart idea.
Comrie may or may not be ready. He definitely deserves a fair shake in TC. But I agree we need to add a UFA goalie into the system as well as Berdin this summer and move on from Pavs/Hutch.

Jets
UFA
Helle

Moose
Comrie
Philips

Tulsa
Berdin

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03-09-2017, 06:38 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by MrBoJangelz71 View Post
I really wish we had started the season with Pavs backing up Hellebuyck, not Hutch. I know it's not ideal but it was a better option, one I believe would have us a few points closer to a wild card spot.

While Pavs is not an NHL starter, he has assumed the role for most his career, he had the most experience of the 3. Hutch has never been a starter in the league, and probably saw Pavs demotion to the Moose as his opportunity to capture a number one spot. Instead of coming into the year with the mindset of being a solid backup and support the rookie starter, he came trying to hold that number one spot. I think it added pressure to his game, and ended up making him practically useless as a backup.

Pavs would have came in with his same mindset, and while Helly struggled, he would have assumed the role he was comfortable with. And whether he played well or not, he would probably be a little more relaxed and provided a better support for a young struggling goalie.n

Instead, Helly had a backup as lost as he was. After Pavs stint, I thought Helly had his best run of games. Pavs knows how to handle adversity and losing, its pretty much been his entire career and I can garauntee you he probably slept like a baby through all it.

Chevy will most certainly find a better support option this off season, I will be shocked if he doesnt.
Unless the Jets were going to carry 3 goaltenders for the entire year there is no way they would have considered this. They probably felt exposing Hutch to waivers was not going to end well. Add in the expansion draft and they need a cheap option for a goalie to be exposed.

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Old
03-09-2017, 06:40 PM
  #38
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two years? Try more like 11.

In the pre-cap era of the late 90's and early 2000's the Leafs had 6 straight years of playoffs which included 1 conference title and 2 conference finals appearances. In the Cap-era they have had 1 playoff appearance in 11 seasons.

You can try and lump us in with the Thrashers but I'd say a completely new ownership group is not the same franchise. So we have had 6 years with 1 playoffs appearance. Obviously not good but to say it has only taken the leafs 2 years to turn their ship around is underselling the pain that franchise has brought it's fans over the past 11 years. 2 yours to turn the ship around but another 9 years of drowning in ankle deep water.
I lump this franchise in with the Thrashers because thus far this franchise has accomplished the exact same thing. One playoff appearance and that being a four game sweep (and yes I grasp that the Jets have played only half the seasons that the Thrashers did). The bottom line is that the Leafs at least made the playoffs in 2013 and took a Boston team to OT of the 7th game. Boston was one year removed from a Cup and was still in their prime taking Chicago deep into the Cup Final in '13. They've floundered in the three years since but are right on the cusp this year. Screw winning a playoff series, the Jets/Thrashers haven't one a playoff game yet. I defy you to come up with a franchise in the 4 major professional sports that has had less success (that being tangible playoff wins) in its first 17 years of existence. I know there are teams but I'm unable to come up with them...

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03-09-2017, 06:44 PM
  #39
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I lump this franchise in with the Thrashers because thus far this franchise has accomplished the exact same thing. One playoff appearance and that being a four game sweep (and yes I grasp that the Jets have played only half the seasons that the Thrashers did). The bottom line is that the Leafs at least made the playoffs in 2013 and took a Boston team to OT of the 7th game. Boston was one year removed from a Cup and was still in their prime taking Chicago deep into the Cup Final in '13. They've floundered in the three years since but are right on the cusp this year. Screw winning a playoff series, the Jets/Thrashers haven't one a playoff game yet. I defy you to come up with a franchise in the 4 major professional sports that has had less success (that being tangible playoff wins) in its first 17 years of existence. I know there are teams but I'm unable to come up with them...
I think it's unfair to pin any of the Thrashers failures on our current ownership group. If we are going to do that we might as well just not have gotten a team back in the first place or wait until a better one came along.

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03-09-2017, 07:06 PM
  #40
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I think it's unfair to pin any of the Thrashers failures on our current ownership group. If we are going to do that we might as well just not have gotten a team back in the first place or wait until a better one came along.
This would be the opinion of the vast majority of Jets fans. What happened prior to 2011 has nothing to do with TNSE, other then set up the conditions where they were available for purchase.

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Old
03-09-2017, 07:17 PM
  #41
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This would be the opinion of the vast majority of Jets fans. What happened prior to 2011 has nothing to do with TNSE, other then set up the conditions where they were available for purchase.
Yeah I definitely don't agree with it. It's just a tool people use to say "oh look how bad the Jets have been for sooooo long!" Like our ownership group or our fans had anything to do with it. We may have inherited some Thrashers fans in the move but I hope they don't attribute that portion of this franchises failures to this current one. Sure that Franchises lack of success saddled our current incarnation with a less than favourable roster and prospect pool but is that not what this current group has been trying to do for the better part of 6 years? Build up a better young roster and prospect pool that was in pretty **** poor shape. I can't even name a team right now that has a worse prospect pool than the 2010 Thrashers did. I mean it was absolute ****. And the players it created are also pretty terrible. I'm frustrated with the lack of success we had but damn it takes time to build something out of absolutely nothing. Not to mention being an unwanted location hasn't done us any favours either. It's an uphill battle. You'd face that no matter who is in charge.

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03-09-2017, 07:33 PM
  #42
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Yeah I definitely don't agree with it. It's just a tool people use to say "oh look how bad the Jets have been for sooooo long!" Like our ownership group or our fans had anything to do with it. We may have inherited some Thrashers fans in the move but I hope they don't attribute that portion of this franchises failures to this current one. Sure that Franchises lack of success saddled our current incarnation with a less than favourable roster and prospect pool but is that not what this current group has been trying to do for the better part of 6 years? Build up a better young roster and prospect pool that was in pretty **** poor shape. I can't even name a team right now that has a worse prospect pool than the 2010 Thrashers did. I mean it was absolute ****. And the players it created are also pretty terrible. I'm frustrated with the lack of success we had but damn it takes time to build something out of absolutely nothing. Not to mention being an unwanted location hasn't done us any favours either. It's an uphill battle. You'd face that no matter who is in charge.
I think the fans on this board skew to the negative far more than the average fan. While there is disappointment at not making the playoffs most fans are not wallowing in misery. IMO at least most see a bright future with the 18-23 y/o cohort and look forward to the future. Again IMO being able to watch live NHL hockey isn't going to get old any time soon. And in all honesty I don't know a single person who counts anything Atlanta did prior to us getting the team.

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03-09-2017, 08:05 PM
  #43
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This would be the opinion of the vast majority of Jets fans. What happened prior to 2011 has nothing to do with TNSE, other then set up the conditions where they were available for purchase.
Okay so this is my issue then. If the argument is that when the franchise moved here from Atlanta, the current ownership and management group should be judged not on the failures that occurred in Atlanta but only after they took possession, why do jets management continue to sign the players from the previous regime who have accomplished so little first in Atlanta and then continuing in Winnipeg. We still have Stuart, Thorburn, Enstrom, Buff, Wheeler, Pavelec, Postma, Little. Some of these guys no doubt should still be here but the point is management has shown an undying loyalty to players that have accomplished very little as a group when things matter most.....the post season.....

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03-09-2017, 08:40 PM
  #44
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Okay so this is my issue then. If the argument is that when the franchise moved here from Atlanta, the current ownership and management group should be judged not on the failures that occurred in Atlanta but only after they took possession, why do jets management continue to sign the players from the previous regime who have accomplished so little first in Atlanta and then continuing in Winnipeg. We still have Stuart, Thorburn, Enstrom, Buff, Wheeler, Pavelec, Postma, Little. Some of these guys no doubt should still be here but the point is management has shown an undying loyalty to players that have accomplished very little as a group when things matter most.....the post season.....
Though I do agree a few guys should not have been resigned namely Thor and Stuart. I don't think you can not resign Buff, Wheeler and Little.

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03-09-2017, 08:58 PM
  #45
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Though I do agree a few guys should not have been resigned namely Thor and Stuart. I don't think you can not resign Buff, Wheeler and Little.
I agree with you here and won't dispute that. But Chevy is going to have to augment all the rookies with talent that they've compiled here with the odd legitimate player via acquisition or July 1st signing. Three signings last Summer. Matthias=injury prone. And Howden and Strait are AHLers. Not quite good enough when the other teams in your division stock up.

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03-09-2017, 09:12 PM
  #46
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I agree with you here and won't dispute that. But Chevy is going to have to augment all the rookies with talent that they've compiled here with the odd legitimate player via acquisition or July 1st signing. Three signings last Summer. Matthias=injury prone. And Howden and Strait are AHLers. Not quite good enough when the other teams in your division stock up.
Those will come when the team has built a winning atmosphere. We are a small market team and likely won't be a top UFA destination until we can prove we can make the playoffs consistently. Trust me when I say that when we can prove that we will have guys lining up to play with the likes of Laine, Scheifele, Ehlers, Trouba and Morrissey.

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03-09-2017, 09:33 PM
  #47
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I agree with you here and won't dispute that. But Chevy is going to have to augment all the rookies with talent that they've compiled here with the odd legitimate player via acquisition or July 1st signing. Three signings last Summer. Matthias=injury prone. And Howden and Strait are AHLers. Not quite good enough when the other teams in your division stock up.
It's not like he hasn't done it before. Wellwood, Frolik, Perreault, even the meh acquisitions like Jokinen and Clitsome filled a need to some extent.

Somewhat troubling that the most notable acquisition since the Kane deal has been Marko Dano. There are major holes that still need to be filled, and it's not as though we needed some big splash UFA signing to fill them. How hard is it to find someone better than Stuart or Chiarot? A quality NHL netminder was available on waivers in December. Also, we have the cap room to take on a short-term, pricy contract (eg. Halak) for a player that can still provide some value.

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03-09-2017, 09:48 PM
  #48
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You'd have been hard pressed to find anyone who would agree with that point at the start of the season. It's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight but who thought Helle and Hutch would be that bad this year? Can't say I remember hearing a word from anyone at the start of the season about that.
I know I was one, among others. Some people just read stats and make assessments on them. I knew it was a bad idea to start with such inexperience in net, and Hellebuyck could have pushed Pavelec to play his best, and vice versa.

But there was politics at play. I think the Jets took bad advice from analytics, placing so much faith in stats that they handcuffed themselves, and their coaching.

We started the year with Kyle Connor who had no business being here. Chiarot-Postma, who were exposed, Hutch. Even though Pavs pitched a shutout in pre-season. Stuart was good in pre-season, his +5 is warranted, as anyone could see he complemented Postma better than Chiarot. If we had replaced him with Morrissey on the PK earlier, who knows?

Still stuck with Enstrom though, even though the vital stats show we are better without him.

We have serious issues on the PP to address. We'd be in the playoffs if we had.

Not only should Flaherty be on the watch, Huddy too, this team plays defense worse than most, and that is not just on Buff's back.

I am not optimistic anymore. I think we are just the Thrashers re-revisited with more seats filled.

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03-09-2017, 10:05 PM
  #49
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I know I was one, among others. Some people just read stats and make assessments on them. I knew it was a bad idea to start with such inexperience in net, and Hellebuyck could have pushed Pavelec to play his best, and vice versa.

But there was politics at play. I think the Jets took bad advice from analytics, placing so much faith in stats that they handcuffed themselves, and their coaching.

We started the year with Kyle Connor who had no business being here. Chiarot-Postma, who were exposed, Hutch. Even though Pavs pitched a shutout in pre-season. Stuart was good in pre-season, his +5 is warranted, as anyone could see he complemented Postma better than Chiarot. If we had replaced him with Morrissey on the PK earlier, who knows?

Still stuck with Enstrom though, even though the vital stats show we are better without him.

We have serious issues on the PP to address. We'd be in the playoffs if we had.

Not only should Flaherty be on the watch, Huddy too, this team plays defense worse than most, and that is not just on Buff's back.

I am not optimistic anymore. I think we are just the Thrashers re-revisited with more seats filled.
There is a lot of hindsight in this post. Connor was among one of the better forwards in TC and preseason. He made a case he just faltered when the games got tougher. Then you say we shouldn't have run with the young tandem because of stats and then use them to say we shouldn't have played Enstrom. Can't have it both ways you either go with the stats or you don't. I agree I don't want the coaches.

Some people just have no patience. We are so much farther ahead than the team we inherited from Atlanta. Can anyone even name a single full time NHLer that came from Atlanta's prospect pool that we inherited? Not even just with the Jets but anywhere in the NHL? We have maybe what 2 depth guys in Chiarot and Postma. I mean can anyone honestly name a current worse prospect pool than the Jets inherited? How is that not a factor in how bad this team has been? How does a small market team find prospects that can push for roster spot without drafting them or going full scorched earth?

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03-09-2017, 10:26 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Daximus View Post
There is a lot of hindsight in this post. Connor was among one of the better forwards in TC and preseason. He made a case he just faltered when the games got tougher. Then you say we shouldn't have run with the young tandem because of stats and then use them to say we shouldn't have played Enstrom. Can't have it both ways you either go with the stats or you don't. I agree I don't want the coaches.

Some people just have no patience. We are so much farther ahead than the team we inherited from Atlanta. Can anyone even name a single full time NHLer that came from Atlanta's prospect pool that we inherited? Not even just with the Jets but anywhere in the NHL? We have maybe what 2 depth guys in Chiarot and Postma. I mean can anyone honestly name a current worse prospect pool than the Jets inherited? How is that not a factor in how bad this team has been? How does a small market team find prospects that can push for roster spot without drafting them or going full scorched earth?
Yeah I'm pretty pissed with how this year has gone but the talent and depth on the roster is significantly better than when we got the team.

With regards to the Atlanta arguement:

There are only 7 of the 23 man roster who are remnants from the Atlanta days, with only 4 of them impact pieces:

Little, Wheeler, Buff and Toby.

Which means 16 of 23 have been Chevy acquisitions. The main issue is that all but 3 of them are under the age of 23 and a good portion of that are in their first or 2nd year as an NHL player. While this group is awfully talented there is a lot of inexperience and that has played a role this year.

I think it's safe to say that the time of being driven by the players retained from Atlanta is coming to an end. Our best players are now our drafted players and they will be taking more and more control of this team both on and off the ice. I'm not too worried about the culture in the room as Morrissey, Scheifele, Trouba, Laine and Lowry hate to lose and will be driving to win. If Buff doesn't pull up his socks and start to play smart hockey then I think the room will start to hold him to task.

It doesn't mean Chevy doesn't need to clear out the last of the deadwood and retool the bottom 3 D spots and fix goaltending.

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