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Chevy Discussions [next moves, his future, etc] - Part III

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Old
03-20-2017, 03:58 PM
  #751
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I think Alzner gets an undeserved reputation as being a big game defenceman because he plays on a stacked roster, but I don't want to be the team spending big money on him. Our cap is going to be a problem fairly soon with all the kids, and Trouba, etc so I don't want to tie up $6mil+ on a guy who's barely a 2nd pairing guy by the numbers.

Goaltending: I want a guy who's in his late 20s early 30s that will take a 2 to 3 year deal. I don't think Darling is that guy - I don't think he's leaving Chicago to be a backup somewhere else, you have to think that he wants to get the majority of games somewhere.

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03-20-2017, 04:16 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by tbcwpg View Post
I think Alzner gets an undeserved reputation as being a big game defenceman because he plays on a stacked roster, but I don't want to be the team spending big money on him. Our cap is going to be a problem fairly soon with all the kids, and Trouba, etc so I don't want to tie up $6mil+ on a guy who's barely a 2nd pairing guy by the numbers.

Goaltending: I want a guy who's in his late 20s early 30s that will take a 2 to 3 year deal. I don't think Darling is that guy - I don't think he's leaving Chicago to be a backup somewhere else, you have to think that he wants to get the majority of games somewhere.
I very much agree about Alzner. Classic case of an an elite team masking a mediocre player. I don't want him at the price point that someone will give him. But sadly I see him as someone our management group will go after if their past defensive acquisitions are to be taken into account.

With regards to goaltending I'm not really sure who I want. I've come around more on the MAF idea given he has a long histiry as a league average or above starter. The 2 years left on his term is also appealing.

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03-20-2017, 04:34 PM
  #753
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Am I the only one assuming MAF is bought out asap? Wouldntthe pens have to protect him over Murray if he isn't bought out before the XD?

Who knows maybe for some reason he wouldn't mind some signing here as a free agent. I doubt tha tho.

I'm assuming he'll sign on a good team where he knows he'll be the starting goalie.

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03-20-2017, 04:38 PM
  #754
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Am I the only one assuming MAF is bought out asap? Wouldntthe pens have to protect him over Murray if he isn't bought out before the XD?

Who knows maybe for some reason he wouldn't mind some signing here as a free agent. I doubt tha tho.

I'm assuming he'll sign on a good team where he knows he'll be the starting goalie.
Yes the Pens would have to barring him waiving his NMC.

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03-20-2017, 04:38 PM
  #755
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The Jets will be facing a cap crunch with their core before the group has even gotten its feet wet in the post-season. That's a pretty good indication that management has been porous.

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03-20-2017, 06:03 PM
  #756
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The Jets will be facing a cap crunch with their core before the group has even gotten its feet wet in the post-season. That's a pretty good indication that management has been porous.
How about you wait until a season where we're not one of the lower cap hits in the league before predicting (very likely incorrectly) how the Jets will do once the cap actually impacts who we can keep?

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03-20-2017, 06:16 PM
  #757
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How about you wait until a season where we're not one of the lower cap hits in the league before predicting (very likely incorrectly) how the Jets will do once the cap actually impacts who we can keep?
It already has (Ladd+Frolik). Next summer Little, Ehlers, Morrissey, and Trouba are all getting raises.

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03-20-2017, 07:25 PM
  #758
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It already has (Ladd+Frolik). Next summer Little, Ehlers, Morrissey, and Trouba are all getting raises.
So you would have preferred that they had tried to win by re-signing Ladd and Frolik instead of preserving cap space for Little, Ehlers, Morrissey, Trouba, etc.?

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03-20-2017, 07:28 PM
  #759
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Fleury won't end up in WPG unless he is traded twice this summer or refuses to waive. He's moving before the expansion draft even if it's for a terrible return is my guess. If I was a team like Phoenix I'd be acquiring fleury and exposing mike smith. If you still have 2 goalies after the expansion draft, you can likely trade MAF for a lot more after the fact.
Sure hoping we get someone with an established track record in wpg anyway.

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03-20-2017, 07:33 PM
  #760
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So you would have preferred that they had tried to win by re-signing Ladd and Frolik instead of preserving cap space for Little, Ehlers, Morrissey, Trouba, etc.?
No, I was calling for Ladd to be traded back in 2013-14 and getting blasted for it.

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03-20-2017, 08:02 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
So you would have preferred that they had tried to win by re-signing Ladd and Frolik instead of preserving cap space for Little, Ehlers, Morrissey, Trouba, etc.?
Nice try lumping Frolik in there. I assume your fallacious arguments are intentional at this point. Frolik being on the team now would have ZERO impact on anything to do with keeping any of those players. Why go so far out of your way to explain away **** decisions, yet fail to qualify anything with the ridiculous contracts to Thorburn, Stuart, Pavelec, Stafford. Call me baffled.

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03-20-2017, 08:06 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by pucka lucka View Post
Nice try lumping Frolik in there. I assume your fallacious arguments are intentional at this point. Frolik being on the team now would have ZERO impact on anything to do with keeping any of those players. Why go so far out of your way to explain away **** decisions, yet fail to qualify anything with the ridiculous contracts to Thorburn, Stuart, Pavelec, Stafford. Call me baffled.
Frolik's contract runs three more years after this season. That said, I think almost all of us would prefer having Frolik over a Perreault (excluding Stafford since he was only a two year term).

Besides, Chevy tried to sign Frolik. Was Chevy too cheap? Didn't he offer more than the Flames?

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03-20-2017, 08:57 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by pucka lucka View Post
Nice try lumping Frolik in there. I assume your fallacious arguments are intentional at this point. Frolik being on the team now would have ZERO impact on anything to do with keeping any of those players. Why go so far out of your way to explain away **** decisions, yet fail to qualify anything with the ridiculous contracts to Thorburn, Stuart, Pavelec, Stafford. Call me baffled.
Okay, I think that the contracts to Stuart, Pavelec, Thorburn and Stafford were stupid and misguided. I have had no problem criticizing those.

I was responding to a post that specifically mentioned that Ladd and Frolik were not re-signed because they would have caused a cap crunch with the need for big extensions for young core players. Frolik is signed for 3 more years after this season. They might have been able to fit his contract with the new extensions, but probably would have had to give up Perreault instead. However, if they had re-signed Frolik, perhaps they could have traded him by now, instead. That would have been a better result. But that wasn't the point of the poster I was responding to, who claimed that the Jets had to give up Ladd and Frolik for cap reasons with the need for cap space in the future.

Why not try to follow the discussion instead of getting all outraged at posts taken out of context?

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03-20-2017, 10:08 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by Dayofthedogs View Post
Pretty sure you can go back and check what any of us Chevy "fans" have said in the past if you think this is true.

I'll wait.
[This] franchise has a four game sweep to its record in six years. Not good enough. I know that Season Ticket Holder increases are a reality of big league hockey. But if I was a season ticket holder paying an increase on a subpar product, I'd be irritated....


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03-20-2017, 10:42 PM
  #765
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Augment? You need assets to augment and you augment when you know you are close, we aren't.

Leafs are impressive eh? This is funny to me, that a team that has missed playoffs 11 of the last 12 seasons is impressive to you. Of course you wouldn't have referenced this impressiveness last season, or the dozen sub par playoff lacking prior season.

Leafs are no different then us, just in a weaker division and a lot less injuries. They went out and acquired a couple of TDL players this year and that might be a wast of assets should they miss the playoffs.

What is abundantly clear is I understand that when you are the second youngest team in the league, you will need time to develop. It will happen, we will improve, and then we can start augmenting our lineup to address an clear weaknesses.

Why do you need assets to augment? You assume that I'm suggesting giving up younger prospects and picks at the trade deadline for players which I'm not. I'm talking about making better signings on July 1st than Matthias, Strait, and Howden. If you're suggesting that the Jets aren't close to being competitive I agree with you here. You're line of thinking is in contrast to the vast majority of "defenders of Chevy" who suggest that- "If this next season turns into the same old debacle, then it's time to further deduce Chevy in his current role"....

The reason why I reference the Leafs is because they completely retooled (brought in Shanahan, Lamoirello, Dubas, Babcock) two season ago and every pundit, analyst, and hockey mind believed that the leafs were about to embark on a lengthy rebuild in the same vein as a Carolina or Jersey. Babcock himself referenced "painful nights" yet to come as a precursor of what he thought would be a significant rebuild. Truth is Leafs are far more competitive way faster than people anticipated.

The leafs look to be "full money" for a playoff spot this year so I'm kind of wondering what assets you truly feel they wasted on acquiring players at the deadline? I think Brian Boyle has already spoken of resigning in Toronto so using one of the three second rounder's they had was a risk they were willing to take.

But in my opinion the leafs are different than us. They have an identity as a team and they are head and shoulders above where we are in terms of icing a pretty consistent lineup.

Injuries, young lineup, bad goaltending. Sure. The fact remains that you may not have thought the jets should have been better this year but lots of people including posters on these boards did. In addition, the mere notion that some sports writers are suggesting that the Jets are this year's biggest disappointment suggests people expected more this year. People can point to Maurice all day long as the issue, but ultimately he ices the lineup provided to him and Chevy should be held accountable for too little progress thus far....

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03-20-2017, 10:46 PM
  #766
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Can someone explain to me what the plan was with this organization?

In 2011' we traded for Eric Fehr and picked up Wellwood and a bunch of waiver junk. Traded UFA Oduya.

In 2012, we tried to sign Zach Parise. Signed Jokinen. Picked up more waiver junk. Did not trade UFAs Hainsey or Antropov.

In 2013, we traded a 2nd for UFA Setogouchi and then more draft picks for Frolik. Traded for Ponikarovsky.

In 2014, we tried to sign UFA Paul Statsny. Signed Perreault. Resigned Stuart.

2015 - tried to re-sign Frolik and Ladd. Re-signed Stafford and Buff. Re-signed Peluso, Thorburn. Eventually traded UFA Ladd at deadline when he wouldn't sign.

2016 - signed Matthias and Brian Strait. Traded away UFA Stafford.

----

With the exception of 2016, TNSE has taken a couple of big shots to try to land marquee free agents and tried to pick up some veterans to improve the team, including trying to re-sign Frolik and Ladd. At no point did they take a real shot on a left handed defenseman or try to improve goaltending.

Goaltending has been beaten to death but look at left handed defense: Enstrom extended. Hainsey, Oduya out. Clitsome, Stuart signed long term. Chiarot promoted to key role. Pardy signed. Acquired Jay Harrison through trade. Brian Strait signed.

It's not clear to me that they have ever had a coherent plan. If they knew that left defense sucks, they certainly aren't showing it because they just keep making it worse. At what point in the 2011 - 2016 seasons did they decide Pavelec sucked? It looks to me like late 2015' which would have been after Parise and/or Statsny signed to long term massive contracts? No plan and cant seem to diagnose the problems with the team. We will double down on this with the Maurice extension this summer.


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03-20-2017, 10:54 PM
  #767
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Why do you need assets to augment? You assume that I'm suggesting giving up younger prospects and picks at the trade deadline for players which I'm not. I'm talking about making better signings on July 1st than Matthias, Strait, and Howden. If you're suggesting that the Jets aren't close to being competitive I agree with you here. You're line of thinking is in contrast to the vast majority of "defenders of Chevy" who suggest that- "If this next season turns into the same old debacle, then it's time to further deduce Chevy in his current role"....

The reason why I reference the Leafs is because they completely retooled (brought in Shanahan, Lamoirello, Dubas, Babcock) two season ago and every pundit, analyst, and hockey mind believed that the leafs were about to embark on a lengthy rebuild in the same vein as a Carolina or Jersey. Babcock himself referenced "painful nights" yet to come as a precursor of what he thought would be a significant rebuild. Truth is Leafs are far more competitive way faster than people anticipated.

The leafs look to be "full money" for a playoff spot this year so I'm kind of wondering what assets you truly feel they wasted on acquiring players at the deadline? I think Brian Boyle has already spoken of resigning in Toronto so using one of the three second rounder's they had was a risk they were willing to take.

But in my opinion the leafs are different than us. They have an identity as a team and they are head and shoulders above where we are in terms of icing a pretty consistent lineup.

Injuries, young lineup, bad goaltending. Sure. The fact remains that you may not have thought the jets should have been better this year but lots of people including posters on these boards did. In addition, the mere notion that some sports writers are suggesting that the Jets are this year's biggest disappointment suggests people expected more this year. People can point to Maurice all day long as the issue, but ultimately he ices the lineup provided to him and Chevy should be held accountable for too little progress thus far....
So we should blow our cap space on under performing aging FA'S then if that is your notion. How's that working out for the NYI and Buffalo?I would rather he stay out of FA for the most part, the lone exception is if he can buy low on an undervalued asset like Smith (similarly to what he did with Perrault) and a goalie.

This teams issue is mostly coaching. Maurice's special teams have remained just as ineffective as ever and that's with about a 60% roster turnover the last number of years. Not sure how that's on Chevy considering he's brought in known elite pp performers at the development level. Goaltending is on him though, I don't blame him for going with Helle (he had the pedigree and looked ready going into the year.) But it is a must fix this summer.

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03-20-2017, 11:10 PM
  #768
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Okay, I think that the contracts to Stuart, Pavelec, Thorburn and Stafford were stupid and misguided. I have had no problem criticizing those.

I was responding to a post that specifically mentioned that Ladd and Frolik were not re-signed because they would have caused a cap crunch with the need for big extensions for young core players. Frolik is signed for 3 more years after this season. They might have been able to fit his contract with the new extensions, but probably would have had to give up Perreault instead. However, if they had re-signed Frolik, perhaps they could have traded him by now, instead. That would have been a better result. But that wasn't the point of the poster I was responding to, who claimed that the Jets had to give up Ladd and Frolik for cap reasons with the need for cap space in the future.

Why not try to follow the discussion instead of getting all outraged at posts taken out of context?
Ahhh here we go. Now the you are trying to portray me as outraged? The games people play. I'd love for you to explain how keeping Frolik would have been a decision to lose Ehlers or whoever. Step it up man.

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03-20-2017, 11:19 PM
  #769
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Originally Posted by Blue Shakehead View Post
Can someone explain to me what the plan was with this organization?

In 2011' we traded for Eric Fehr and picked up Wellwood and a bunch of waiver junk. Traded UFA Oduya.

In 2012, we tried to sign Zach Parise. Signed Jokinen. Picked up more waiver junk. Did not trade UFAs Hainsey or Antropov.

In 2013, we traded a 2nd for UFA Setogouchi and then more draft picks for Frolik. Traded for Ponikarovsky.

In 2014, we tried to sign UFA Paul Statsny. Signed Perreault. Resigned Stuart.

2015 - tried to re-sign Frolik and Ladd. Re-signed Stafford and Buff. Re-signed Peluso, Thorburn. Eventually traded UFA Ladd at deadline when he wouldn't sign.

2016 - signed Matthias and Brian Strait. Traded away UFA Stafford.

----

With the exception of 2016, TNSE has taken a couple of big shots to try to land marquee free agents and tried to pick up some veterans to improve the team, including trying to re-sign Frolik and Ladd. At no point did they take a real shot on a left handed defenseman or try to improve goaltending.

Goaltending has been beaten to death but look at left handed defense: Enstrom extended. Hainsey, Oduya out. Clitsome, Stuart signed long term. Chiarot promoted to key role. Pardy signed. Acquired Jay Harrison through trade. Brian Strait signed.

It's not clear to me that they have ever had a coherent plan. If they knew that left defense sucks, they certainly aren't showing it because they just keep making it worse. At what point in the 2011 - 2016 seasons did they decide Pavelec sucked? It looks to me like late 2015' which would have been after Parise and/or Statsny signed to long term massive contracts? No plan and cant seem to diagnose the problems with the team. We will double down on this with the Maurice extension this summer.
Poni was signed as a UFA in the frenzy and traded away during the season long before the deadline.

Doesn't really change what you're trying to say, but he cost zero assets and actually brought one back.

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03-20-2017, 11:27 PM
  #770
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Originally Posted by pucka lucka View Post
Ahhh here we go. Now the you are trying to portray me as outraged? The games people play. I'd love for you to explain how keeping Frolik would have been a decision to lose Ehlers or whoever. Step it up man.
That's not really what I claimed. I was following a premise offered by another poster to query the thinking behind the post, without endorsing the premise.

Still, decisions about vets had to be made. Now, maybe you can explain how they could keep Ladd, Frolik, Little, Wheeler and Perreault and also keep Ehlers, Laine, Trouba, etc.

By the way, those vets together would cost at least $26-27 million in cap hit.

I don't play games, but I object to snarky posts in kind, which really are unnecessary. For the record, you accused me of deliberately posting fallacious information. That approach is forbidden on this forum for good reason. It leads nowhere productive.

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03-20-2017, 11:30 PM
  #771
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Originally Posted by surixon View Post
So we should blow our cap space on under performing aging FA'S then if that is your notion. How's that working out for the NYI and Buffalo?I would rather he stay out of FA for the most part, the lone exception is if he can buy low on an undervalued asset like Smith (similarly to what he did with Perrault) and a goalie.

This teams issue is mostly coaching. Maurice's special teams have remained just as ineffective as ever and that's with about a 60% roster turnover the last number of years. Not sure how that's on Chevy considering he's brought in known elite pp performers at the development level. Goaltending is on him though, I don't blame him for going with Helle (he had the pedigree and looked ready going into the year.) But it is a must fix this summer.
Don't exaggerate. You know just as well as I do that Chipman and True North management will never allow this franchise to go on a free wheeling spending spree when it comes to free agents. That being said, if you take a look at offseason signings thus far it borders on pathetic.

I suppose when you suggest that you want Chevy to stay out of the free agent market, you must be very happy with the Jets so far. Tip top. No problems. Everything is hunky dory and they're exactly where they should be after six seasons. Gimme a break man. Let me guess? "Things are gonna be different next season!"

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03-20-2017, 11:34 PM
  #772
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
That's not really what I claimed. I was following a premise offered by another poster to query the thinking behind the post, without endorsing the premise.

Still, decisions about vets had to be made. Now, maybe you can explain how they could keep Ladd, Frolik, Little, Wheeler and Perreault and also keep Ehlers, Laine, Trouba, etc.

By the way, those vets together would cost at least $26-27 million in cap hit.

I don't play games, but I object to snarky posts in kind, which really are unnecessary. For the record, you accused me of deliberately posting fallacious information. That approach is forbidden on this forum for good reason. It leads nowhere productive.
I accused you because it was fallacious. I have yet to hear how Frolik would stop us from signing those players.

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03-20-2017, 11:51 PM
  #773
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I accused you because it was fallacious. I have yet to hear how Frolik would stop us from signing those players.
I never said that. Go back and read.

The original post that I responded to conveyed the opinion that the Jets had to jettison Ladd and Frolik because of an imminent cap crunch. I note with interest that you decided not to challenge that post or poster.

I responded " so you would rather they sign Ladd and Frolik" instead of preserving cap space for Ehlers, Laine, Morrissey, Trouba, etc. The etc. includes other core players such as Little, Wheeler, Perreault. Please notice the "and" in my post, which not only mirrored the initial post and dealt with the reality that keeping both of them would not have been compatible with keeping the rest of the core. I also followed up with a post that specifically said that keeping Frolik per se was a viable option, and perhaps even a good idea because he could be traded to alleviate a cap issue.

Nothing I wrote was fallacious. Your claim that I was is a misreading of my post and motives. Your approach to discourse is objectionable and contrary to the spirit of this forum.

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03-21-2017, 12:09 AM
  #774
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I very much agree about Alzner. Classic case of an an elite team masking a mediocre player. I don't want him at the price point that someone will give him. But sadly I see him as someone our management group will go after if their past defensive acquisitions are to be taken into account.

With regards to goaltending I'm not really sure who I want. I've come around more on the MAF idea given he has a long histiry as a league average or above starter. The 2 years left on his term is also appealing.
I think Alzner has a real upside, but we have to look at investments Alzner can probably command $5 million on the FA market, I would have to think Detroit would like to have him to pair up with Mike Green. Toronto needs defense. Philly as well.

We have to look at long term investments. The Jets are looking at the $6.5-7 million range for Trouba. Ehlers wiil get a nice raise. I absolutely want to re-sign Bryan Little and build a winner around him. Laine, Lowry and Hellebuyck are also part of our core.

I think we go under the radar, Daley played for Huddy in Dallas, if he is coming back. I would like a player like Derek Engelland for depth. Maybe trade for a defenseman like John Merrill.

I would also look to Cap constrained teams, as an opportunity. If we could get Ouellet and Helm for Enstrom we address fundamental weaknesses in special teams. Maybe we offer to take Jonathan Ericsson's salary for buyout, for draft picks, as Ken Holland has really struggled to run the team efficiently in the Cap era.

Anaheim in reality generates less revenue than the Jets but spends to the ceiling. A player like Stoner, and a prospect (Theodore) could probably be had for the right price.

Short of that I go all in on Ekman Larsson, 1st rd pick, 2nd next year, Lemieux, Enstrom, and Comrie.

What I wonder is how the Poolman negotiations will unfold. As a drafted college player, heading to free agency he holds alot more cards than most. Is he able to command a one way contract, how does that affect negotiations?

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03-21-2017, 04:47 AM
  #775
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Any post that pins Frolik's hypothetical salary with the Jets at equal to or greater than the one he signed for in Calgary, and not the 4x4 he offered the Jets the year before, is fallacious. I can only presume people use the Calgary model because, in their eyes, it makes Chevy look less incompetent.

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