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Chevy Discussions [next moves, his future, etc] - Part III

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Old
03-10-2017, 02:25 PM
  #101
ps241
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
I think that the Jets' anticipated "rise" has been blunted by an epic number of injuries coinciding with the busiest part of their schedule, mediocre goaltending and uneven performance by veteran D. Sure, they've had some stinkers with a relatively healthy line-up but so does every team. But no team can really expect to compete in the NHL these days if they have to consistently ice a line-up with several replacement players instead of key players.

I think the Jets are closer to a good team than we might think, and the fixes aren't that drastic in terms of personnel or coaching.
Yea I am a fan of our young core but will need to see Chevy actually fix the goaltending before I get too excited. As mentioned I fully expect us to break through next season.

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Old
03-10-2017, 02:27 PM
  #102
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Thats one way to look at it. The other way again is that you had a guy who was never going to sign back here and dithered over 250k.

Funny how earlier in the year no one would post this and Frolik was playing just fine then but his team wasn't

Anyways

As much as people will hate this I will say I think for the most part what they decided to do this year was hand the reigns over to the younger guys and for the most part it paid off and it will pay off as we go forward.

This is a young team and wins when its young players are playing well. Some tweaks need to be made but nothing major.

- Get a solid vet backup for Helly
- Figure out what you are going to do with Myers
- Get a solid LH D in Free agency to play with Buff.

As much as people here would hate this I can see them resigning Thorburn. But it should mean he sits in the PB 90 percent of the time and is willing to go down to the Moose every so often.

I don't think there is a need to fire PoMo yet. But I probably have him on a short leash next year.


Call me crazy but I like the looks of the team for the most part. They can put the puck into the net, they need to put together more solid 200 foot games,they need longer stretches of consistent goaltending and they need the refs to give them some more respect.
Your moves for next year are certainly agreeable -- need a good backup & some top 4 D help at a minimum.

Resigning Thorburn just won't work. Yes, he is adequate if used properly; no, he will never be used properly (as in PB most of the time EVEN WHEN WE HAVE an injury or two) and sent down to the Moose occasionally. Anyone who thinks Mo will ever get to such a reasonable compromise with Thorburn really hasn't been paying attention.

I also have no problem keeping PoMo but on a short leash next season. Again, however, it will never happen IMO. If he's around next year, I say he's on at least a 2 year extension. Crazy, but that's the way we operate here.

Also, you make no mention for needing to change our goal-tending & defensive coaches -- both have certainly more than run their course.

Other than that, yes I also like the look of our team. Defense is by far our biggest concern going forward, and special teams -- just can't see either improving much until we rid ourselves of a few coaches.

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03-10-2017, 02:32 PM
  #103
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I like this post. I think it's bang on with respect to where the Jets are and what they should do next.

I know that this board will go ape-crazy if the Jets re-sign Thorbs, but they have already shown that they are happy to play him in a marginal role. If the Pens can have Sestito in their system, it's not going to be the death-knell of the Jets to have Thorbs somewhere in the system. The problem hasn't been Thorbs per se, but a lack of depth that meant that they had to play Thorbs too much. I think that depth problem is melting away quite rapidly now.
They have not shown anything of the sort with Thorburn. They've kept him handy for quick insertion as soon as they have any injuries (which is like >80% of the games), and then often inserted him in lieu of guys like Petan, Copp, you name it.

And the lack of depth at forward position (requiring Mo to play Thorbs) is so far off as well. We have plenty of depth at F that we should never have to use Thorburn at all -- unless maybe in rare instances where we want to play a big hitting game. That's it, that's all he's worth being inserted for these days.

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03-10-2017, 02:36 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
The Oilers last made the playoffs in 2006. 11 years later they are back in the dance. That is after they decided to do a scorched earth policy. They really didn't do anything until they had McDavid fall in their laps and trade Hall away for some defensive help.

Toronto hasn't made the playoffs yet.

To me we are in a similar boat to Calgary one of those mix of teams that is on that line of making or missing the playoffs every year. I think we lucked out at the draft last year and have a super star forward and I think we developed Schief into one. What we haven't done is try to fix our goaltending like Calgary has. Its paying dividends for them now.

The other thing about Calgary is earlier in the year their fans wanted their coach fired. Now, not so much. My point is when PoMo led us into the playoffs he could do no wrong, now not so much.
I find it odd that some believe we should be on pace with Edmonton in drafting and developing into a playoff and cup contending team.

Edmonton over the past decade, have drafted on average, at the 5.6th for their first round picks, with 4 of their 10 first round picks being number one picks.

Winnipeg/Atlanta over the past decade has drafted on average, at 14th in the first round and not one first overall pick.

Quite a variance in positioning and a huge advantage drafting 4 number 1's. And even at that, all those golden nuggets being given to the oilers, they are just now turning themselves into a quality playoff team. No surprise, this occurs a year after getting a generational talent in McDavid.

So after a decade of drafting top picks, developing them, Chiarelli had enough pieces in the toolbox to go out and make some trades to address needs, and had a team that enticed a UFA like Lucic to sign on. This did not happen in a couple of seasons, not overnight, it took over 10 years to get themselves back into playoffs and now have a team that could be a cup contender in the next few seasons.

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03-10-2017, 02:38 PM
  #105
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In terms of NHL players Chevy's acquired via trade in nearly 6 years on the job:

Eric Fehr
Eric Tangradi (? - he was really only an 'NHL player' briefly with the Jets)
Michael Frolik
Devon Setoguchi
Jay Harrison
Drew Stafford
Tyler Myers
Joel Armia (more of a prospect at the time, but hey - he's an NHL player now)
Jiri Tlusty
Lee Stempniak
Marko Dano

11 players. One over the past two seasons. Find me a GM who's acquired fewer NHL players via trade over 6 seasons. Are there any who have done less in half that time?

And his free agency acquisitions?

Tanner Glass
Randy Jones
Kyle Wellwood
Alexei Ponikarovsky
Olli Jokinen
Al Montoya
Adam Pardy
Matt Halischuk
Micheal Hutchinson (not an NHLer at the time, but he briefly turned into one!)
Mathieu Perreault
TJ Galiardi
Shawn Matthias

12 NHL players in 6 seasons. Mostly junk I should add... And only one since 2014-15.

Since the Jets' lone playoff appearance: Dano and Matthias are the only NHL players acquired via trade or free agency. WTF? Insanity.

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03-10-2017, 02:41 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
In terms of NHL players Chevy's acquired via trade in nearly 6 years on the job:

Eric Fehr
Eric Tangradi (? - he was really only an 'NHL player' briefly with the Jets)
Michael Frolik
Devon Setoguchi
Jay Harrison
Drew Stafford
Tyler Myers
Joel Armia (more of a prospect at the time, but hey - he's an NHL player now)
Jiri Tlusty
Lee Stempniak
Marko Dano

11 players. One over the past two seasons. Find me a GM who's acquired fewer NHL players via trade over 6 seasons. Are there any who have done less in half that time?

And his free agency acquisitions?

Tanner Glass
Randy Jones
Kyle Wellwood
Alexei Ponikarovsky
Olli Jokinen
Al Montoya
Adam Pardy
Matt Halischuk
Micheal Hutchinson (not an NHLer at the time, but he briefly turned into one!)
Mathieu Perreault
TJ Galiardi
Shawn Matthias

12 NHL players in 6 seasons. Mostly junk I should add... And only one since 2014-15.

Since the Jets' lone playoff appearance: Dano and Matthias are the only NHL players acquired via trade or free agency. WTF? Insanity.

I have no idea if this is true but if I told you Chevy has made offers to 30 players over those 6 years that signed with another team for the same or less money would that surprise you?

We have been and are still a tough sell to UFAs......Trades is a different ball of wax

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03-10-2017, 02:42 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by MrBoJangelz71 View Post
I find it odd that some believe we should be on pace with Edmonton in drafting and developing into a playoff and cup contending team.

Edmonton over the past decade, have drafted on average, at the 5.6th for their first round picks, with 4 of their 10 first round picks being number one picks.

Winnipeg/Atlanta over the past decade has drafted on average, at 14th in the first round and not one first overall pick.

Quite a variance in positioning and a huge advantage drafting 4 number 1's. And even at that, all those golden nuggets being given to the oilers, they are just now turning themselves into a quality playoff team. No surprise, this occurs a year after getting a generational talent in McDavid.

So after a decade of drafting top picks, developing them, Chiarelli had enough pieces in the toolbox to go out and make some trades to address needs, and had a team that enticed a UFA like Lucic to sign on. This did not happen in a couple of seasons, not overnight, it took over 10 years to get themselves back into playoffs and now have a team that could be a cup contender in the next few seasons.
Doesn't matter where Edmonton picked under Kevin Lowe because it was a broken organization. They had zero players from outside the 1st round make it to the NHL so they clearly were a horror show. Top that off with 1st overall let down RNH, 1st overall total bust in Yak, 1st overall star but shipped out of town Hall and it is just not very pretty.

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Old
03-10-2017, 02:46 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Daximus View Post
I agree. We need a partner that can cover for Buff but we also need Buff to get his head out of his ass. Next season I expect Chevy and Mo to attempt to woo Trouba by giving him the top pairing RHD minutes in an attempt to get him locked up long term. This will reduce Buff's minutes all over the ice so we may see a Buff that doesn't think he has to do so much and gets back to playing the more effective two-way game he can play.
No kidding. If we get even 20 games of bad Buff next year, I'm all for shipping him at the end of next season when his NMC changes.

Really not sure that Mo has the sense or balls to demote Buff to under 20 mins when he isn't playing anywhere up to snuff, but it would be interesting to see if that might happen if we had anything for backup D. Then again, we have Postma & his usage this year in spite of how desperate we were, so maybe that's expecting too much from Mo.

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03-10-2017, 02:48 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Smart GMs and coaches have signed worse players. Exhibit A - Sestito.

It's more about contract terms and usage.
Indeed -- smart GMs & coaches have worse players, but they have enough sense to keep them down on the farm or stapled to the bench.

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03-10-2017, 02:53 PM
  #110
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Sorry but a strong "NO" to Thor because we need to take the booze out of the house to not tempt the alcoholic. Maurice needs to not have him as an option or he will **** it up.


Go Jets Go
Love it -- so true.

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03-10-2017, 02:55 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
In terms of NHL players Chevy's acquired via trade in nearly 6 years on the job:

Eric Fehr
Eric Tangradi (? - he was really only an 'NHL player' briefly with the Jets)
Michael Frolik
Devon Setoguchi
Jay Harrison
Drew Stafford
Tyler Myers
Joel Armia (more of a prospect at the time, but hey - he's an NHL player now)
Jiri Tlusty
Lee Stempniak
Marko Dano

11 players. One over the past two seasons. Find me a GM who's acquired fewer NHL players via trade over 6 seasons. Are there any who have done less in half that time?

And his free agency acquisitions?

Tanner Glass
Randy Jones
Kyle Wellwood
Alexei Ponikarovsky
Olli Jokinen
Al Montoya
Adam Pardy
Matt Halischuk
Micheal Hutchinson (not an NHLer at the time, but he briefly turned into one!)
Mathieu Perreault
TJ Galiardi
Shawn Matthias

12 NHL players in 6 seasons. Mostly junk I should add... And only one since 2014-15.

Since the Jets' lone playoff appearance: Dano and Matthias are the only NHL players acquired via trade or free agency. WTF? Insanity.
Hellebuyck
Morrissey
Trouba
Myers
Scheifele
Ehlers
Laine
Perreault
Lowry
Armia
Dano
Matthias
Copp
Petan


Connor
Tanev

Those are all acquired by the Jets. Is it better to recruit via trade and free agency than drafting? It depends.

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Old
03-10-2017, 02:59 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by SCP Guy View Post
I have no idea if this is true but if I told you Chevy has made offers to 30 players over those 6 years that signed with another team for the same or less money would that surprise you?

We have been and are still a tough sell to UFAs......Trades is a different ball of wax
What would the Jets have traded to acquire better core talent? Existing core players like Wheeler, Little and Buff? The only other trade chips are picks and prospects. The Jets had no notable prospects in the system, so I guess it's high picks to trade.

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03-10-2017, 03:08 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by SCP Guy View Post
I have no idea if this is true but if I told you Chevy has made offers to 30 players over those 6 years that signed with another team for the same or less money would that surprise you?

We have been and are still a tough sell to UFAs......Trades is a different ball of wax
So one NHL level free agent over the last two offeseasons is all Chevy could round up? After making the playoffs in 2014-15, did Winnipeg become an even less desirable landing spot for free agents? Also, we know that at least Stempniak wanted to re-sign here. I should preface that with a trigger warning, but it seems relevant in the context of replying to your baseless speculation.

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03-10-2017, 03:09 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
What would the Jets have traded to acquire better core talent? Existing core players like Wheeler, Little and Buff? The only other trade chips are picks and prospects. The Jets had no notable prospects in the system, so I guess it's high picks to trade.
Oh, are the cupboards STILL bare? Chevy's acquired one NHL player via trade since 2014-15.

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03-10-2017, 03:10 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
What would the Jets have traded to acquire better core talent? Existing core players like Wheeler, Little and Buff? The only other trade chips are picks and prospects. The Jets had no notable prospects in the system, so I guess it's high picks to trade.
The jets could have certainly made some forsberg for erat type trades. I'm glad they didn't choose that path...

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03-10-2017, 03:11 PM
  #116
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The jets could have certainly made some forsberg for erat type trades. I'm glad they didn't choose that path...
Yep, the worst trades in history were the only trades available. [mod]


Last edited by YWGinYYZ: 03-10-2017 at 05:39 PM. Reason: natd - quit it.
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03-10-2017, 03:18 PM
  #117
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Well I for one am glad the Jets haven't made a number of deals that HF boards wanted to make.

Does anyone remeber the Morrissey and 2017 first for Arizona's third to draft Strome or Hanifin deal going around or the Morrissey plus for Drouin proposals lol

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Old
03-10-2017, 03:22 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Blue Shakehead View Post
Yep, the worst trades in history were the only trades available. [mod]
Name me one trade for an impact player in the last five years that didn't include a 1st round pick or an A prospect...


Last edited by YWGinYYZ: 03-10-2017 at 05:39 PM. Reason: QEP
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03-10-2017, 03:45 PM
  #119
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Name me one trade for an impact player in the last five years that didn't include a 1st round pick or an A prospect...
Trades

1. Devan Dubnyk - 3rd round pick
2. Brian Elliot (2nd and conditional 3rd)
3. Cam Talbot (2nd, 3rd and 7th)
4. Antii Raanta - AHL B prospect (Haggerty)
5. Anton Khudobin - cap dump James Wisnieski
6. James Reimer - Ben Smith, Alex Stalock, 4th round pick
7. Mike Condon - waivers in October, traded for 5th in October
8. Sergei Bobrovsky - 2nd round, 2 x 4th round picks
9. Steve Mason - Mike Leighton and a 3rd
10. Jonathan Bernier - traded twice, once for a 2nd, once for 6th rounder (conditional)

or minor UFAs...

10. Thomas Greiss ($750k x 1 year - UFA in 2013, $1M x 1 year UFA in 2014, $1.5M x 2 years UFA in 2015)
11. Chad Johnson ($1.7M x 1 year)

...or if you were inclined to look at trades for your late 1st rounder...

12. Robin Lehner (and Legawand) - late first
13. Frederick Andresson - last pick in 2017 draft

-----

Thats with about 8 minutes of research and mostly looking at the last 2 years. Basically for the price we paid for Setogouchi and Eric Fehr, we could have fixed goaltending long ago. And even if we didn't fix it, we at least would have had the dignity of having tried.


Last edited by Blue Shakehead: 03-10-2017 at 03:51 PM.
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03-10-2017, 03:54 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Blue Shakehead View Post
Trades

1. Devan Dubnyk - 3rd round pick
2. Brian Elliot (2nd and conditional 3rd)
3. Cam Talbot (2nd, 3rd and 7th)
4. Antii Raanta - AHL B prospect (Haggerty)
5. Anton Khudobin - cap dump James Wisnieski
6. James Reimer - Ben Smith, Alex Stalock, 4th round pick
7. Mike Condon - waivers in October, traded for 5th in October
8. Sergei Bobrovsky - 2nd round, 2 x 4th round picks
9. Steve Mason - Mike Leighton and a 3rd
10. Jonathan Bernier - traded twice, once for a 2nd, once for 6th rounder (conditional)

or minor UFAs...

10. Thomas Greiss ($750k x 1 year - UFA in 2013, $1M x 1 year UFA in 2014, $1.5M x 2 years UFA in 2015)
11. Chad Johnson ($1.7M x 1 year)

...or if you were inclined to look at trades for your late 1st rounder...

12. Robin Lehner (and Legawand) - late first
13. Frederick Andresson - last pick in 2017 draft

-----

Thats with about 8 minutes of research and mostly looking at the last 2 years. Basically for the price we paid for Setogouchi and Eric Fehr, we could have fixed goaltending long ago. And even if we didn't fix it, we at least would have had the dignity of having tried.
didn't it cost last year's 1st rounder and this year's 2nd for Andersen?

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03-10-2017, 04:01 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by MrBoJangelz71 View Post
I find it odd that some believe we should be on pace with Edmonton in drafting and developing into a playoff and cup contending team.

Edmonton over the past decade, have drafted on average, at the 5.6th for their first round picks, with 4 of their 10 first round picks being number one picks.

Winnipeg/Atlanta over the past decade has drafted on average, at 14th in the first round and not one first overall pick.

Quite a variance in positioning and a huge advantage drafting 4 number 1's. And even at that, all those golden nuggets being given to the oilers, they are just now turning themselves into a quality playoff team. No surprise, this occurs a year after getting a generational talent in McDavid.

So after a decade of drafting top picks, developing them, Chiarelli had enough pieces in the toolbox to go out and make some trades to address needs, and had a team that enticed a UFA like Lucic to sign on. This did not happen in a couple of seasons, not overnight, it took over 10 years to get themselves back into playoffs and now have a team that could be a cup contender in the next few seasons.
Couple that with RNH not living up to his potential and Yak busting completely. As well as Hall not really fitting in with the direction of the team and being traded for Larsson and you have a team full of dysfunction. If the Sabres had won the 2015 lotto I bet they'd be the ones in a playoff position while the Oilers would be toiling with the bottom of the league again.

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03-10-2017, 04:06 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Blue Shakehead View Post
Trades

1. Devan Dubnyk - 3rd round pick
2. Brian Elliot (2nd and conditional 3rd)
3. Cam Talbot (2nd, 3rd and 7th)
4. Antii Raanta - AHL B prospect (Haggerty)
5. Anton Khudobin - cap dump James Wisnieski
6. James Reimer - Ben Smith, Alex Stalock, 4th round pick
7. Mike Condon - waivers in October, traded for 5th in October
8. Sergei Bobrovsky - 2nd round, 2 x 4th round picks
9. Steve Mason - Mike Leighton and a 3rd
10. Jonathan Bernier - traded twice, once for a 2nd, once for 6th rounder (conditional)

or minor UFAs...

10. Thomas Greiss ($750k x 1 year - UFA in 2013, $1M x 1 year UFA in 2014, $1.5M x 2 years UFA in 2015)
11. Chad Johnson ($1.7M x 1 year)

...or if you were inclined to look at trades for your late 1st rounder...

12. Robin Lehner (and Legawand) - late first
13. Frederick Andresson - last pick in 2017 draft

-----

Thats with about 8 minutes of research and mostly looking at the last 2 years. Basically for the price we paid for Setogouchi and Eric Fehr, we could have fixed goaltending long ago. And even if we didn't fix it, we at least would have had the dignity of having tried.
I don't think there is any try. You either do or do not. I don't think anyone would be any less harsh on the management if Chevy traded a 1st rounder for a goalie and that goalie failed as well. Then everyone would ***** and complain that we traded a first rounder for a failed goalie. The only way Chevy gets out of this mess is if he successfully lands a goalie that is good otherwise it would be the exact same reactions we are seeing now. I don't think literally any of you guys would cut him any more slack had he actually attempted to get a goalie and failed.

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03-10-2017, 04:18 PM
  #123
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didn't it cost last year's 1st rounder and this year's 2nd for Andersen?
Yup.

And how strong was the evidence that Andersen was superior to Hellebuyck prior to this season?

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03-10-2017, 04:18 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Matthew McConaughey View Post
This off season, this team needs:

1. a true #1 goalie signed. Ideally for 2-4 years.

2. an upgraded D (one top 4 LHD signed, Trouba signed long term, and the bottom 6 replaced with two better players, one of who could be Enstrom).

3. a new head coach and all new assistants. Maurice had 4 years, and even with an upgraded team, he is routinely outcoached. An extension for him would be a disaster IMO.
Would be tough to pay a 3rd pairing defender $5.75mil. Luckily next year is the end of his contract, but it's not like we have a replacement in the system...

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03-10-2017, 04:26 PM
  #125
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They have not shown anything of the sort with Thorburn. They've kept him handy for quick insertion as soon as they have any injuries (which is like >80% of the games), and then often inserted him in lieu of guys like Petan, Copp, you name it.

And the lack of depth at forward position (requiring Mo to play Thorbs) is so far off as well. We have plenty of depth at F that we should never have to use Thorburn at all -- unless maybe in rare instances where we want to play a big hitting game. That's it, that's all he's worth being inserted for these days.
Thorbs rarely played over a healthy winger that was on the roster, and then only for Tanev and now Petan for a few games. When did a healthy Dano, Armia, Stafford or Copp sit for Thorbs?

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