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Round 2, Vote 1 (Stanley Cup Playoff Performers)

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Old
03-14-2017, 11:40 AM
  #101
MXD
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You know that it's allowed to actually argue AGAINST Wayne Gretzky, right?

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03-14-2017, 11:44 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
bobholly

The problem with your post above is that you compare runs that are, in many cases, very close to each other, while ignoring :
+/- 8% of Lemieux's career playoffs
+/- 51% of Messier's career playoffs
+/- 63% of Howe's career ELIGIBLE playoffs


I can live with a fully assumed subjectivity, but dissociating Messier's and Howe's case from their longevity... I don't know, that's kinda like using goalscoring to evidence that Sakic is a better player than Doug Harvey.
I'm not ignoring anything. I just wanted to compare each player's best runs and see how they match up to each other.

I'm surprised because I expected the gap between Lemieux and Messier to be bigger. I'm also surprised at how much better Messier looks to Howe. Both in their top 6 runs, but also in the many other runs. Outside of their top 6 runs, Messier has many more runs i considered as being better than Howe.

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03-14-2017, 11:47 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
You know that it's allowed to actually argue AGAINST Wayne Gretzky, right?
If this is in reference to me, I certainly agree. There is lots to fault about Gretzky's career and some performances (and even more about his P.R. and personality at times), and I think I have pointed this out before.

I do get a bit baffled sometimes by the (over-the-top, if I'm being honest) reverence for Patrick Roy with many of the (highly intelligent) posters on this forum. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how he is even close to contention for the greatest playoff performer of all-time (and he's way further off that if we were talking regular season, but we're not).

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Old
03-14-2017, 11:55 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
I'm not ignoring anything. I just wanted to compare each player's best runs and see how they match up to each other.

I'm surprised because I expected the gap between Lemieux and Messier to be bigger. I'm also surprised at how much better Messier looks to Howe. Both in their top 6 runs, but also in the many other runs. Outside of their top 6 runs, Messier has many more runs i considered as being better than Howe.
I'll rephrase : Howe and Messier have some other assets to their resume than their best 6 performances. Lemieux has, for a lack of a better word, none. And those 6 performances weren't even that far one from another.

I also don't quite agree with your ranking (that you described yourself as subjective) but that was really not what I was opposed to. Plus, it's not like you didn't say it was subjective, so props for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
If this is in reference to me, I certainly agree. There is lots to fault about Gretzky's career and some performances (and even more about his P.R. and personality at times), and I think I have pointed this out before.

I do get a bit baffled sometimes by the (over-the-top, if I'm being honest) reverence for Patrick Roy with many of the (highly intelligent) posters on this forum. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how he is even close to contention for the greatest playoff performer of all-time (and he's way further off that if we were talking regular season, but we're not).
Fair enough.
As I said, if it wasn't clear enough, I don't want Gretzky at #1 being a proclamation. And Roy is a player that has a shot at possibly topping him (along with Beliveau and M. Richard). I think.

Roy is there because :
- He does have lots of Connie Smythe
- He is perceived (with cause) as the absolute key cog of two somewhat surprising Cup Winners
- The narrative that the '86 and '89 Habs were, indeed, terrible teams, which they weren't even close of being (and they were probably better than a few of the winners in the last 15 seasons).

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03-14-2017, 11:57 AM
  #105
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...I obviously meant '93 in the previous post. Not '89.

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Old
03-14-2017, 12:07 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Roy was probably more integral to Cup wins than Gretzky was, and I believe the same applies to Beliveau (yeah, they won in 1973 without him). Not quite sure for Richard -- they went on a drought as he retired, but considering how '59 and '60 went for him, that seems more like a case of correlation without actual causation.

That doesn't make Roy or Beliveau or Richard better playoff performers than Gretzky, but I think every argument for the three players above vs. Gretzky probably has to start there.
I'm ok saying Roy was more integral to his team cups in a vacuum than Gretzky. Goalie > Forward, and many of Roy's teams relied on his outwardly play to compete (especially Montreal).

Not sure i'd agree at all for Beliveau and Richard.

I think if you remove Richard, Beliveau and Gretzky from history. The oilers win 0 cups. The habs win less, but still win quite a bit.

I know the Oilers won without Gretzky in 1990 - but i think they only won in 1990 because Gretzky showed them how to win those years earlier. He made everyone around him better (Kurri, Messier, Anderson, Coffey, etc). So I don't necessarily agree that he wasn't as integral to the Oilers as a player can be. He did have a strong supporting cast - but he also played a large part in making that supporting cast so strong.

Technically - not sure how much of that is or should be relevant when ranking playoff performance here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
Hmm... no.

Roy was clearly integral to the 1986 Cup win and the 1993 Cup win. I believe that if almost any other goalie (at the time) was in net then, those teams do not advance as far they did. (Though, actually, both those Habs' winners faced tired, mediocre teams in the Finals... the one time they faced a really strong team in the Finals -- 1989 -- they lost.)

In 1996? We're talking about a powerhouse Colorado team with Sakic and Forsberg in bloom. The team was already 1st overall in the NHL before Roy even got there. And in 2001, despite his Conn Smythe, it's one of the stronger line-ups in modern NHL history (I wouldn't have given him the Smythe in 2001, certainly).

Let's pause to remember that Gretzky joined the NHL on an expansion team with 3 other protected players from the WHA. That was the team he came in on -- 4 pro hockey players, and four years later they're in the Cup Finals.
In 1996 - Colorado had never won in the playoffs. Quebec Nordiques were notorious underachievers. I know Sakic had a pretty legendary playoff run that year, and fully deserves the Conn Smythe. But in terms of "most valuable player" imo it's Roy 100%. Roy is the reason Avalanche were able to take that step forward and win in the playoffs. So i think you're underselling him a bit here.

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03-14-2017, 12:24 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I'll rephrase : Howe and Messier have some other assets to their resume than their best 6 performances. Lemieux has, for a lack of a better word, none. And those 6 performances weren't even that far one from another.

I also don't quite agree with your ranking (that you described yourself as subjective) but that was really not what I was opposed to. Plus, it's not like you didn't say it was subjective, so props for that.
Most of the dialogue so far in this thread seems to have Howe > Messier. At least i've not noticed anyone suggest the opposite.

I feel as though my comparison here was very eye opening in that I feel very strongly that it should instead be Messier > Howe

I feel as though you're concentrating a bit too much on Lemieux from my post. I think the more intriguing result to me is that Howe should definitely be behind Messier.

As for Lemieux - it was always going to be a particular case with him. No guidelines/standard has been defined here in terms of how to compare "peak" vs "prime" vs "career" playoffs when ranking players.

Lemieux is easily#1 in peak between the 3.
He's #1 for prime too, though an argument can be made for Messier, or that at least it's close.
For career - he's #3 by far.

Depending on how much importance you want to give to Peak vs Prime vs Career I think there's a case to be made for Lemieux to be slotted anywhere from #1 to #3 between those 3 players.

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03-14-2017, 12:24 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
In 1996 - Colorado had never won in the playoffs. Quebec Nordiques were notorious underachievers.
Oh no, now it's the old "they hadn't won anything before he arrived" argument!

The Oilers hadn't made it deep in the playoffs before Ken Linseman arrived.
The Penguins couldn't even make the playoffs until Larry Murphy arrived.
The Hurricanes couldn't go anywhere until Cam Ward arrived.

It happens. Very often, teams with no history of winning suddenly win.

No doubt Roy pushed Colorado over the top and over the mountain in 1995-96. But they had already scaled that mountain before he got to that team.

I personally think Roy was more integral to the success of Montreal in 1986 (playoffs) and 1988-89 (whole season + playoffs) than he was at any time in Colorado.

I don't mean to take anything away from Roy -- I do consider him a playoff legend, and one of the 4 or 5 greatest goalies. But I also think the Colorado trade kind of helped Roy as much as he helped Colorado.

Anyway, I'm merely responding the suggestion that he was more integral to his team than Wayne Gretzky was to Edmonton, which strikes me as far-fetched.

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Old
03-14-2017, 12:58 PM
  #109
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1996 Western Conference Finals
Game 1: 29/31 - 3 goals of support
Game 2: 35/35 - 3 goals of support
Game 3: 16/22 - 4 goals of support
Game 4: 29/31 - 3 goals of support
Game 5: 21/26 - 2 goals of support
Game 6: 23/24 - 4 goals of support

Wins: 116/121 - 13 goals of support
Losses: 37/48 - 6 goals of support

I wouldn't want to say that they could or couldn't win in 1996 without him (Games 3 and 6 could certainly be won with average performances, but you would need some quality performances to steal two more), but the Red Wings were a 62-win team. That they only really got to him twice is a big feather in his cap. You can't not award Sakic the Conn Smythe, but Patrick Roy was their most important player - and the best player overall - in the Western Conference Finals and Stanley Cup Finals in my opinion.

And 2001... the degree to which he prevented what would be expected of an average performance over the final three rounds parallels his numbers from 1993. His first round drags his cumulative number down, but Rounds 2-4 were statistically in that 1993 ballpark.

Round 2: .943 (.890 expected)
Round 3: .939 (.900 expected)
Round 4: .938 (.886 expected)

I'm not sure who else could have won the Conn Smythe. Forsberg missed two rounds, and Sakic separated his shoulder early on against Los Angeles, essentially missing 3 games (and only recording 2 points in the others).

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03-14-2017, 01:47 PM
  #110
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What's so hard to understand in the fact that :
- The Oilers may win without Gretzky
- The Canadiens do not win without Roy, and the '01 Avalanche probably do not win without him either.

Obviously, that's mostly because the Gretzky' Oilers were more than just slightly better than the Canadiens' Roy, and that doesn't prevent Gretzky from having a great performances on those Oilers teams either (not to mention, having quite a few of these kind of performances as well, including with the Kings).

Gretzky's performances might have been better in the grand scheme of things (they probably were; what Roy did in 85-86 was certainly not unprecedented, and was certainly realized subsequently (Beezer '96 strikes me as on similar ground)); they might just not have been as crucial as Roy's in actual Cup winning.

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03-14-2017, 02:56 PM
  #111
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Mark Messier's scoring among his teammates in the playoffs

Here's the year-by-year Top 5 playoff scorers on Mark Messier's teams throughout his career (only the years relevant to Messier).

79-80 (Skipped/3 pts in 3 games)

80-81 (Skipped/7 pts in 9 games)

81-82 (Skipped/3 pts in 5 games)

82-83
Player GP G* A* PTS
Wayne Gretzky 16 12 26 38
Jari Kurri 16 8 15 23
Mark Messier 15 15 6 21
Glenn Anderson 16 10 10 20
Paul Coffey 16 7 7 14

83-84 (Conn Smythe)
Player GP G* A* PTS
Wayne Gretzky 19 13 22 35
Jari Kurri 19 14 14 28
Mark Messier 19 8 18 26
Paul Coffey 19 8 14 22
Glenn Anderson 19 6 11 17

84-85
Player GP G* A* PTS
Wayne Gretzky 18 17 30 47
Paul Coffey 18 12 25 37
Jari Kurri 18 19 12 31
Glenn Anderson 18 10 16 26
Mark Messier 18 12 13 25

85-86
Player GP G* A* PTS
Wayne Gretzky 10 8 11 19
Jari Kurri 10 2 10 12
Glenn Anderson 10 8 3 11
Mark Messier 10 4 6 10
Paul Coffey 10 1 9 10

86-87
Player GP G* A* PTS
Wayne Gretzky 21 5 29 34
Mark Messier 21 12 16 28
Glenn Anderson 21 14 13 27
Jari Kurri 21 15 10 25
Kent Nilsson 21 6 13 19

87-88
Player GP G* A* PTS
Wayne Gretzky 19 12 31 43
Mark Messier 19 11 23 34
Jari Kurri 19 14 17 31
Esa Tikkanen 19 10 17 27
Glenn Anderson 19 9 16 25

88-89
Player GP G* A* PTS
Mark Messier 7 1 11 12
Jari Kurri 7 3 5 8
Steve Smith 7 2 2 4
Esa Tikkanen 7 1 3 4
Jimmy Carson 7 2 1 3

89-90
Player GP G* A* PTS
Craig Simpson 22 16 15 31
Mark Messier 22 9 22 31
Jari Kurri 22 10 15 25
Esa Tikkanen 22 13 11 24
Glenn Anderson 22 10 12 22

90-91
Player GP G* A* PTS
Esa Tikkanen 18 12 8 20
Craig Simpson 18 5 11 16
Mark Messier 18 4 11 15
Petr Klima 18 7 6 13
Glenn Anderson 18 6 7 13

91-92
Player GP G* A* PTS
Mike Gartner 13 8 8 16
Brian Leetch 13 4 11 15
Mark Messier 11 7 7 14
Tony Amonte 13 3 6 9
Adam Graves 10 5 3 8

92-93 (Did not play)

93-94
Player GP G* A* PTS
Brian Leetch 23 11 23 34
Mark Messier 23 12 18 30
Alex Kovalev 23 9 12 21
Sergei Zubov 22 5 14 19
Adam Graves 23 10 7 17

94-95
Player GP G* A* PTS
Brian Leetch 10 6 8 14
Mark Messier 10 3 10 13
Alex Kovalev 10 4 7 11
Sergei Zubov 10 3 8 11
Pat Verbeek 10 4 6 10

95-96
Player GP G* A* PTS
Mark Messier 11 4 7 11
Pat Verbeek 11 3 6 9
Adam Graves 10 7 1 8
Jari Kurri 11 3 5 8
Niklas Sundstrom 11 4 3 7

96-97
Player GP G* A* PTS
Wayne Gretzky 15 10 10 20
Esa Tikkanen 15 9 3 12
Mark Messier 15 3 9 12
Luc Robitaille 15 4 7 11
Brian Leetch 15 2 8 10


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 03-14-2017 at 09:16 PM.
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03-14-2017, 03:01 PM
  #112
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Guy Lafleur's scoring among his teammates in the playoffs

Here's the year-by-year Top 5 playoff scorers on Guy Lafleur's teams throughout his career (only the years relevant to Lafleur).

71-72 (Skipped/5 pts in 6 games)

72-73 (Skipped/Out of the Top 5/ 8 pts in 17 games)

73-74 (Skipped/1 pt in 6 games)

74-75
Player GP G* A* PTS
Guy Lafleur 11 12 7 19
Pete Mahovlich 11 6 10 16
Jacques Lemaire 11 5 7 12
Yvan Cournoyer 11 5 6 11
Guy Lapointe 11 6 4 10

75-76
Player GP G* A* PTS
Guy Lafleur 13 7 10 17
Steve Shutt 13 7 8 15
Pete Mahovlich 13 4 8 12
Yvan Cournoyer 13 3 6 9
Serge Savard 13 3 6 9

76-77 (Conn Smythe)
Player GP G* A* PTS
Guy Lafleur 14 9 17 26
Jacques Lemaire 14 7 12 19
Steve Shutt 14 8 10 18
Guy Lapointe 12 3 9 12
Larry Robinson 14 2 10 12

77-78
Player GP G* A* PTS
Guy Lafleur 15 10 11 21
Larry Robinson 15 4 17 21
Steve Shutt 15 9 8 17
Jacques Lemaire 15 6 8 14
Yvan Cournoyer 15 7 4 11

78-79
Player GP G* A* PTS
Jacques Lemaire 16 11 12 23
Guy Lafleur 16 10 13 23
Bob Gainey 16 6 10 16
Larry Robinson 16 6 9 15
Yvon Lambert 16 5 6 11

79-80 (Skipped/4 pts in 3 games)

80-81 (Skipped/1 pt in 3 games)

81-82 (Skipped/3 pts in 5 games)

82-83 (Skipped/2 pts in 3 games)

83-84 (Skipped/3 pts in 12 games)

84-85 (Did not play/Retired)

85-86 (Did not play/Retired)

86-87 (Did not play/Retired)

87-88 (Did not play/Retired)

88-89 (Skipped/1 pt in 4 games)

89-90 (Did not play)

90-91 (Did not play)


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 03-14-2017 at 09:19 PM.
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03-14-2017, 03:01 PM
  #113
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Mario Lemieux' scoring among his teammates in the playoffs

Here's the year-by-year Top 5 playoff scorers on Mario Lemieux' teams throughout his career (only the years relevant to Lemieux).

84-85 (Did not play)

85-86 (Did not play)

86-87 (Did not play)

87-88 (Did not play)

88-89
Player GP G* A* PTS
Mario Lemieux 11 12 7 19
Paul Coffey 11 2 13 15
Kevin Stevens 11 3 7 10
Dan Quinn 11 6 3 9
John Cullen 11 3 6 9

89-90 (Did not play)

90-91 (Conn Smythe)
Player GP G* A* PTS
Mario Lemieux 23 16 28 44
Mark Recchi 24 10 24 34
Kevin Stevens 24 17 16 33
Larry Murphy 23 5 18 23
Joe Mullen 22 8 9 17

91-92 (Conn Smythe)
Player GP G* A* PTS
Mario Lemieux 15 16 18 34
Kevin Stevens 21 13 15 28
Ron Francis 21 8 19 27
Jaromir Jagr 21 11 13 24
Rick Tocchet 14 6 13 19

92-93
Player GP G* A* PTS
Mario Lemieux 11 8 10 18
Ron Francis 12 6 11 17
Kevin Stevens 12 5 11 16
Rick Tocchet 12 7 6 13
Larry Murphy 12 2 11 13

93-94 (Skipped/7 pts in 6 games)

94-95 (Did not play/Injured)

95-96
Player GP G* A* PTS
Mario Lemieux 18 11 16 27
Jaromir Jagr 18 11 12 23
Petr Nedved 18 10 10 20
Sergei Zubov 18 1 14 15
J.J. Daigneault 17 1 9 10

96-97 (Skipped/6 pts in 5 games)

97-98 (Retired)

98-99 (Retired)

99-00 (Retired)

00-01
Player GP G* A* PTS
Mario Lemieux 18 6 11 17
Martin Straka 18 5 8 13
Jaromir Jagr 16 2 10 12
Alex Kovalev 18 5 5 10
Andrew Ference 18 3 7 10

01-02 (Did not play)

02-03 (Did not play)

03-04 (Did not play)

04-05 (Lock-out)

05-06 (Did not play)


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 03-14-2017 at 09:21 PM.
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03-14-2017, 03:02 PM
  #114
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Gordie Howe's scoring among his teammates in the playoffs

Here's the year-by-year Top 5 playoff scorers on Gordie Howe's teams throughout his career (only the years relevant to Howe).

46-47 (Skipped/0 pt in 5 games)

47-48 (Skipped/Out of Top 5/ 2 pts in 10 games)

48-49
Player GP G* A* PTS
Gordie Howe 11 8 3 11
Ted Lindsay 11 2 6 8
Sid Abel 11 3 3 6
George Gee 10 1 3 4
Gerry Couture 10 2 0 2

49-50 (Skipped/Injured/0 pt in 1 game)

50-51
Player GP G* A* PTS
Sid Abel 6 4 3 7
Gordie Howe 6 4 3 7
Leo Reise 6 2 3 5
Gerry Couture 6 1 1 2
Gaye Stewart 6 0 2 2

51-52
Player GP G* A* PTS
Ted Lindsay 8 5 2 7
Gordie Howe 8 2 5 7
Metro Prystai 8 2 5 7
Johnny Wilson 8 4 1 5
Glen Skov 8 1 4 5

52-53
Player GP G* A* PTS
Ted Lindsay 6 4 4 8
Metro Prystai 6 4 4 8
Gordie Howe 6 2 5 7
Johnny Wilson 6 2 5 7
Alex Delvecchio 6 2 4 6

53-54
Player GP G* A* PTS
Gordie Howe 12 4 5 9
Alex Delvecchio 12 2 7 9
Ted Lindsay 12 4 4 8
Red Kelly 12 5 1 6
Marcel Pronovost 12 2 3 5

54-55 (Retro-Conn Smythe)
Player GP G* A* PTS
Gordie Howe 11 9 11 20
Ted Lindsay 11 7 12 19
Alex Delvecchio 11 7 8 15
Dutch Reibel 11 5 7 12
Vic Stasiuk 11 5 3 8


55-56
Player GP G* A* PTS
Gordie Howe 10 3 9 12
Alex Delvecchio 10 7 3 10
Ted Lindsay 10 6 3 9
Red Kelly 10 2 4 6
Norm Ullman 10 1 3 4


56-57
Player GP G* A* PTS
Gordie Howe 5 2 5 7
Ted Lindsay 5 2 4 6
Alex Delvecchio 5 3 2 5
Billy Dea 5 2 0 2
Metro Prystai 5 2 0 2

57-58 (Skipped/2 pts in 4 games)

58-59 (Did not play)

59-60
Player GP G* A* PTS
Alex Delvecchio 6 2 6 8
Gordie Howe 6 1 5 6
Norm Ullman 6 2 2 4
Len Haley 6 1 3 4
Val Fonteyne 6 0 4 4


60-61
Player GP G* A* PTS
Gordie Howe 11 4 11 15
Alex Delvecchio 11 4 5 9
Vic Stasiuk 11 2 5 7
Leo Labine 11 3 2 5
Val Fonteyne 11 2 3 5

61-62 (Did not play)

62-63
Player GP G* A* PTS
Gordie Howe 11 7 9 16
Norm Ullman 11 4 12 16
Alex Delvecchio 11 3 6 9
Larry Jeffrey 9 3 3 6
Alex Faulkner 8 5 0 5

63-64
Player GP G* A* PTS
Gordie Howe 14 9 10 19
Norm Ullman 14 7 10 17
Alex Delvecchio 14 3 8 11
Bruce MacGregor 14 5 2 7
Andre Pronovost 14 4 3 7

64-65 (Skipped/6 pts in 7 games)


65-66
Player GP G* A* PTS
Norm Ullman 12 6 9 15
Alex Delvecchio 12 0 11 11
Dean Prentice 12 5 5 10
Gordie Howe 12 4 6 10
Andy Bathgate 12 6 3 9

66-67 (Did not play)

67-68 (Did not play)

68-69 (Did not play)

69-70 (Skipped/2 pts in 2 games)


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 03-14-2017 at 09:51 PM.
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03-14-2017, 03:02 PM
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Joe Sakic's scoring among his teammates in the playoffs

Here's the year-by-year Top 5 playoff scorers on Mark Messier's teams throughout his career (only the years relevant to Messier).


92-93 (Skipped/6 pts in 6 games)

93-94 (Did not play)

94-95 (Skipped/5 pts in 6 games)

95-96 (Conn Smythe)
Player GP G* A* PTS
Joe Sakic 22 18 16 34
Valeri Kamensky 22 10 12 22
Peter Forsberg 22 10 11 21
Sandis Ozolinsh 22 5 14 19
Mike Ricci 22 6 11 17

96-97
Player GP G* A* PTS
Joe Sakic 17 8 17 25
Claude Lemieux 17 13 10 23
Valeri Kamensky 17 8 14 22
Peter Forsberg 14 5 12 17
Sandis Ozolinsh 17 4 13 17

97-98 (Skipped/5 pts in 6 games)

98-99
Player GP G* A* PTS
Peter Forsberg 19 8 16 24
Joe Sakic 19 6 13 19
Theoren Fleury 18 5 12 17
Claude Lemieux 19 3 11 14
Adam Deadmarsh 19 8 4 12

99-00
Player GP G* A* PTS
Peter Forsberg 16 7 8 15
Adam Deadmarsh 17 4 11 15
Chris Drury 17 4 10 14
Sandis Ozolinsh 17 5 5 10
Milan Hejduk 17 5 4 9
Joe Sakic 17 2 7 9
Ray Bourque 13 1 8 9

00-01
Player GP G* A* PTS
Joe Sakic 21 13 13 26
Milan Hejduk 23 7 16 23
Alex Tanguay 23 6 15 21
Rob Blake 23 6 13 19
Chris Drury 23 11 5 16

01-02
Player GP G* A* PTS
Peter Forsberg 20 9 18 27
Joe Sakic 21 9 10 19
Alex Tanguay 19 5 8 13
Greg de Vries 21 4 9 13
Steve Reinprecht 21 7 5 12

02-03
Player GP G* A* PTS
Joe Sakic 7 6 3 9
Peter Forsberg 7 2 6 8
Milan Hejduk 7 2 2 4
Rob Blake 7 1 2 3
Dan Hinote 7 1 2 3

03-04
Player GP G* A* PTS
Joe Sakic 11 7 5 12
Peter Forsberg 11 4 7 11
Milan Hejduk 11 5 2 7
Marek Svatos 11 1 5 6
Rob Blake 9 0 5 5

04-05 (LOCKOUT)

05-06
Player GP G* A* PTS
Joe Sakic 9 4 5 9
Andrew Brunette 9 3 6 9
Milan Hejduk 9 2 6 8
Alex Tanguay 9 2 4 6
Jim Dowd 9 2 3 5

06-07 (Did not play)

07-08
Player GP G* A* PTS
Joe Sakic 10 2 8 10
Andrew Brunette 10 5 3 8
Milan Hejduk 10 3 3 6
Tyler Arnason 10 2 3 5
John-Michael Liles 10 2 3 5


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03-14-2017, 04:12 PM
  #116
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Guy Lafleur

Here's a post from TheDevilMadeMe about Lafleur in the playoffs in his prime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
Playoffs

Lafleur was an amazing playoff producer during his 6 year prime, scoring 110 points in 72 playoff games - a ridiculous 1.53 points per playoff game over 6 seasons. Nobody else on his team or any other team came close during this time.

Top Playoff scorers 1975-1980:

playerGPGAP
Guy Lafleur725159110
Bobby Clarke82255479
Denis Potvin80284977
Steve Shutt72354277
Jacques Lemaire69324274
Bill Barber82343670
Reggie Leach82472269
Rick MacLeish65313465
Brad Park64194362
Jean Ratelle58243862
Larry Robinson79154762


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03-14-2017, 04:18 PM
  #117
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Playoff VsX Scores (1918-2016)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
A recent conversation on this board got me thinking about a simple way to get a summary of a player's peak offensive contributions in the playoffs. We already have something like that for the regular season, of course - VsX - so I thought it might be helpful to whip up something similar for the NHL playoffs.

The methodology was the same - I just took the 2nd leading playoff scorer every season and used them as the benchmark, comparing the point totals of every player to that benchmark and expressing it as a percentage. In roughly a dozen of the past 99 seasons, I used the 3rd place scorer as he was still a significant degree behind 2nd (who deserved credit for distancing himself from the pack).

The downfalls to this system are obvious - first, in the pre-merger seasons of 1918-1926 it uses some extremely small samples (though this didn't affect much as very few players from this time made the cutoff). Also, I'm sure you can guess that, unlike regular season VsX (which is on an even GP playing field), it is hugely advantageous to be in the playoffs more often and to advance more often. But that's why they all play the game, isn't it?

One advantage to using "best 5 seasons" is that it stops a player from just "compiling" their way to a good score. You have to have at least one great playoff run to be able to make this cutoff and a handful of good ones.

So, here are the most prolific playoff scorers of all-time, based on their five best playoff runs from a point scoring perspective:


FORWARDS

# Name VsX5P
1 Wayne Gretzky 685
2 Gordie Howe 583
3 Maurice Richard 575
4 Jean Beliveau 559
5 Bernie Geoffrion 550
6 Phil Esposito 549
7 Joe Sakic 543
8 Guy Lafleur 528
9 Mario Lemieux 518
10 Ted Kennedy 517
11 Frank Boucher 501
12 Dickie Moore 498
13 Bobby Hull 497
14 Ted Lindsay 496
15 Mike Bossy 492
16 Mark Messier 490
17 Jacques Lemaire 485
18 Frank Mahovlich 484
19 Peter Forsberg 481
20 Sergei Fedorov 481
21 Stan Mikita 476
22 Bryan Trottier 475
23 Doug Gilmour 471
24 Toe Blake 466
25 Jari Kurri 461
26 Elmer Lach 456
27 Yvan Cournoyer 456
28 Howie Morenz 455
29 Sidney Crosby 453
30 Steve Yzerman 449
I stopped the list at 30th for space purposes.The full list and thread is available here.


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03-14-2017, 04:28 PM
  #118
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Doug Harvey

Here's a post from Dark Shadows who saw Doug Harvey play (bolded are mine).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Bourque, while one of my favorite players, just is not at Harvey's level.Harvey's peak was ridiculous. He was THE best defensive defenseman and Penalty killer ever to lace up the skates and was also the second best offensively at the same time(Red Kelly taking a slight lead there).

You want to compare their competition for the Norris trophy? Bourque's field was larger, while Harvey's had Red Kelly(Who was better than any of Bourque's top competition), followed by Gadsby, a guy who rightfully ranks ahead of many of Bourque's top competition. Gadsby is ahead of Macinnis, Leetch, Stevens, Langway, Howe, etc, while Kelly at his best was equal to or better than Potvin, Robinson, Chelios or Coffey. Had the Norris existed in 52-53, Harvey would have an 8th to add to his collection.

Harvey's competition was very stiff. Trying to imply he had easy competition is wrong.

Harvey was, in my opinion, the most important player on that Habs dynasty while he was there. He was certainly their best playoff performer.

Hockey Outsider did a graph regarding how much the Habs scoring went up or down during their cup winning years, and I was no surprise that Harvey's numbers jumped through the roof in those years.
Offensive Production: regular season PPG vs playoffs PPG on the 11 Stanley Cup winning teams
Minimum 250 RS games and 40 PO games

PlayerRegSeasonPlayoffs%Change
Doug Harvey 0.56 0.82 46.4
J.C. Tremblay 0.52 0.75 44.2
Bernie Geoffrion 1.11 1.39 25.2
Dickie Moore 1.03 1.16 12.6
Maurice Richard 0.94 1.05 11.7
Yvan Cournoyer 0.88 0.94 6.8
Jacques Lemaire 0.86 0.91 5.8
Jacques Laperriere 0.41 0.43 4.9
Jean Beliveau 1.16 1.19 2.6
Terry Harper 0.19 0.18 -5.3
Ralph Backstrom 0.6 0.54 -10
Henri Richard 0.83 0.74 -10.8
Ted Harris 0.28 0.24 -14.3
Claude Provost 0.62 0.51 -17.7
John Ferguson 0.56 0.46 -17.9
Bobby Rousseau 0.91 0.64 -29.7
Tom Johnson 0.35 0.24 -31.4
Don Marshall 0.4 0.27 -32.5
Jean-Guy Talbot 0.27 0.18 -33.3
Claude Larose 0.44 0.25 -43.2
Bob Turner 0.18 0.09 -50
Here's some quotes about Doug Harvey.They might not strictly relate to his playoff play, but are still great general quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Pavelich
And of course Harvey, we always thought that without Harvey on that team we could beat Montreal because he really was controlling the puck back on that blueline. He'd pick it up and take his time, get it out, move it out, get the guy in the open and throw it to him and away they'd go. To me, he was one of the greatest defenceman to ever play.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Duff
''Harvey did what was expected of him. He was nobody’s fool. He was a smart player, someone tough who didn’t mind mixing it up. We all knew we had to bring our best to have a chance of beating him.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howie Meeker
All I know is that the son of a gun came out of nowhere to become the biggest thorn in the side of the Leafs in our glory days. He was an early Bobby Orr, except he did it at semi-slow motion. You always knew what was coming - you could see it happening - but you couldn't do anything about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Fisher
It was impossible not to like Harvey, the player, who was the NHL's best defenceman of his time and ranks behind only Bobby Orr. He was an integral part of six Stanley Cup-winning Canadiens teams, blessed as he was with the uncanny talent of either speeding up a game or putting the brakes on it. He controlled its pace more than any of the great stars who were part of the record five consecutive Cups the Canadiens won in the late '50s. He was the quarterback on the team's feared power play


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03-14-2017, 04:54 PM
  #119
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Are you saying that Lafleur was somehow a product of Lemaire in the playoffs? Seems like a stretch.
I wouldn't go that far, but clearly it was Lemaire who was the defensive conscience of the line, allowing Lafleur to go full-out offensively and be successful during the dynasty. Lafleur's approach suddenly stopped being effective as soon as Lemaire was gone.

Gretzky losing Kurri is similar to an extent. He was suddenly a minus player at even strength upon going to the Kings, and the playoff results were disappointing from 1990-1992.

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03-14-2017, 05:00 PM
  #120
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I previously presented data for the top 50 players in career goals scored breaking down their goals scored into different types based on the state of the game - e.g. in a blowout, when tied, etc. Here's a link to the thread. The same numbers for each forward's top 7 playoff goal scoring years are below.

I only have data for the playoffs from 1953 through 2016, so the numbers for Maurice Richard and Gordie Howe do not reflect their full career. I have presented the numbers for goals only mostly because it's a lot quicker for me to calculate them. Assists are also important but I have chosen not to include them because it takes longer to run the numbers.

Definitions:

Blowout Loss Goal: The goal was scored while the player's team was losing by 4 or more goals.
Rally Goal: The goal was scored while the player's team was losing by 2 or 3 goals.
Tying Goal: The goal was scored while the player's team was down by 1, tying the score of the game.
Go-Ahead Goal: The goal was scored while the game was tied, putting the player's team ahead by 1.
Insurance Goal: The goal was scored while the player's team was leading by 1 or 2 goals.
Blowout Win Goal: The goal was scored while the player's team was leading by 3 or more, putting them in the lead by at least 4 goals.

I've also presented the numbers for goals scored while trailing, tied (which is the same as the go-ahead goal numbers), and leading.

There are, of course, other factors that can be included in clutch goal scoring. I encourage anyone who wants to take a deeper look to look up the game summaries themselves.

Maurice Richard
Maurice Richard 1953 1954 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 Total Percentage
Blowout L Goal 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0%
Rally Goal 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 2 6%
Tying Goal 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 3 9%
Go-ahead Goal 0 0 0 4 4 0 0 8 23%
Insurance Goal 4 1 2 0 4 0 0 11 31%
Blowout W Goal 2 2 3 2 1 0 1 11 31%
Total 7 3 5 8 11 0 1 35 100%
Scored when Trailing 1 0 0 2 2 0 0 5 14%
Scored when Tied 0 0 0 4 4 0 0 8 23%
Scored when Leading 6 3 5 2 5 0 1 22 63%
Tying+Go-Ahead 0 0 0 6 5 0 0 11 31%

Many of Richard's top playoff goal scoring runs are not included here, so it is not fair to evaluate his goal scoring based solely on these numbers. For the seasons we do have, he scored a very high percentage of goals while his team was already in the lead and very few goals while his team trailed. He scored 8 go-ahead goals in the 1957 and 1958 playoffs combined, and no go-ahead goals in the other 5 playoff runs included here.

Gordie Howe
Gordie Howe 1954 1955 1961 1963 1964 1965 1966 Total Percentage
Blowout L Goal 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 2%
Rally Goal 0 0 0 3 0 0 1 4 10%
Tying Goal 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 4 10%
Go-ahead Goal 1 1 1 1 6 0 0 10 24%
Insurance Goal 1 6 2 1 2 3 2 17 41%
Blowout W Goal 2 1 1 0 0 0 1 5 12%
Total 4 9 4 7 9 4 4 41 100%
Scored when Trailing 0 1 0 5 1 1 1 9 22%
Scored when Tied 1 1 1 1 6 0 0 10 24%
Scored when Leading 3 7 3 1 2 3 3 22 54%
Tying+Go-Ahead 1 2 1 2 7 1 0 14 34%

Howe's 1949 playoff run when he scored 8 goals was not in my dataset and is not included here. Howe scored most of his playoff goals when his team was already leading. In his 1955 playoff run, 7 of 9 goals came when his team already had the lead. In 1964, on the other hand, 6 of his 9 goals gave his team the lead.

Jean Beliveau
Jean Beliveau 1955 1956 1957 1965 1967 1968 1971 Total Percentage
Blowout L Goal 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0%
Rally Goal 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 3 7%
Tying Goal 0 3 0 1 0 2 1 7 16%
Go-ahead Goal 2 4 2 5 1 2 2 16 36%
Insurance Goal 3 3 4 1 5 2 0 15 33%
Blowout W Goal 1 2 0 1 0 1 0 4 9%
Total 6 12 6 8 6 7 6 45 100%
Scored when Trailing 0 3 0 1 0 2 4 10 22%
Scored when Tied 2 4 2 5 1 2 2 16 36%
Scored when Leading 4 5 4 2 5 3 0 19 42%
Tying+Go-Ahead 2 7 2 6 1 4 3 23 51%

Over half of Jean Beliveau's playoff goals included here either tied the game or gave his team the lead, which is one of the best records here. Beliveau's top years for clutch playoff goal scoring were 1956 and 1965. Oddly enough, most of his goals in his final playoff year of 1971 were scored while his team was trailing.

Guy Lafleur
Guy Lafleur 1973 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 Total Percentage
Blowout L Goal 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0%
Rally Goal 1 2 2 0 0 1 0 6 11%
Tying Goal 0 0 0 1 2 4 1 8 15%
Go-ahead Goal 1 3 2 3 2 2 0 13 24%
Insurance Goal 1 4 3 4 4 3 0 19 35%
Blowout W Goal 0 3 0 1 2 0 2 8 15%
Total 3 12 7 9 10 10 3 54 100%
Scored when Trailing 1 2 2 1 2 5 1 14 26%
Scored when Tied 1 3 2 3 2 2 0 13 24%
Scored when Leading 1 7 3 5 6 3 2 27 50%
Tying+Go-Ahead 1 3 2 4 4 6 1 21 39%

Lafleur really only had 5 years worth including here but I included 7 for to be consistent with the other players. Nothing really stands out in the overall numbers. 4 tying goals in 1979 is pretty impressive.

Wayne Gretzky
Wayne Gretzky 1983 1984 1985 1986 1988 1993 1997 Total Percentage
Blowout L Goal 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0%
Rally Goal 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 3 4%
Tying Goal 1 2 1 2 1 3 2 12 14%
Go-ahead Goal 1 3 8 0 3 3 5 23 27%
Insurance Goal 4 7 5 4 3 6 3 32 38%
Blowout W Goal 6 1 3 2 2 1 0 15 18%
Total 12 13 17 8 10 15 10 85 100%
Scored when Trailing 1 2 1 2 2 5 2 15 18%
Scored when Tied 1 3 8 0 3 3 5 23 27%
Scored when Leading 10 8 8 6 5 7 3 47 55%
Tying+Go-Ahead 2 5 9 2 4 6 7 35 41%

Gretzky and Messier had fairly similar breakdowns for their playoff goal scoring. They both scored a high percentage of goals in blowouts, probably because the Oilers had a lot of blowout wins in the playoffs. I found in the regular season numbers that Gretzky scored a much higher percentage of his goals with the lead compared to Messier, who tended to score his goals when the game was closer. This difference does not appear in the playoff numbers, and I surmise that Gretzky was chasing stats in regular season games with the lead but did not do so in the playoffs.

Gretzky's top "clutch" playoff goal scoring seasons are his 1985 playoff run (his best season in yet another way) and his 1997 playoff run near the end of his career.

Mark Messier
Mark Messier 1983 1984 1985 1987 1988 1990 1994 Total Percentage
Blowout L Goal 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0%
Rally Goal 1 1 2 0 2 0 0 6 8%
Tying Goal 2 2 3 2 3 0 2 14 18%
Go-ahead Goal 3 0 1 5 4 3 3 19 24%
Insurance Goal 3 4 3 3 1 5 7 26 33%
Blowout W Goal 6 1 3 2 1 1 0 14 18%
Total 15 8 12 12 11 9 12 79 100%
Scored when Trailing 3 3 5 2 5 0 2 20 25%
Scored when Tied 3 0 1 5 4 3 3 19 24%
Scored when Leading 9 5 6 5 2 6 7 40 51%
Tying+Go-Ahead 5 2 4 7 7 3 5 33 42%

As noted above, Messier's numbers are very close to Gretzky's. The main difference is that Messier was a bit more likely to score while his team was trailing. Messier's top playoff runs in terms of clutch goal scoring were 1987, 1988, and 1994.

Mario Lemieux
Mario Lemieux 1989 1991 1992 1993 1994 1996 2001 Total Percentage
Blowout L Goal 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1%
Rally Goal 1 1 1 0 2 1 0 6 8%
Tying Goal 2 2 0 2 1 0 2 9 12%
Go-ahead Goal 4 6 5 3 1 5 3 27 37%
Insurance Goal 4 7 8 3 0 4 1 27 37%
Blowout W Goal 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 3 4%
Total 12 16 16 8 4 11 6 73 100%
Scored when Trailing 3 3 2 2 3 1 2 16 22%
Scored when Tied 4 6 5 3 1 5 3 27 37%
Scored when Leading 5 7 9 3 0 5 1 30 41%
Tying+Go-Ahead 6 8 5 5 2 5 5 36 49%

Lemieux's clutch playoff goal numbers are pretty good and are actually very similar to Jean Beliveau's numbers.

Joe Sakic
Joe Sakic 1996 1997 1999 2001 2002 2003 2004 Total Percentage
Blowout L Goal 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1%
Rally Goal 2 1 0 0 0 2 0 5 7%
Tying Goal 2 3 0 2 1 0 2 10 15%
Go-ahead Goal 12 2 2 5 5 2 2 30 45%
Insurance Goal 2 1 2 6 2 2 2 17 25%
Blowout W Goal 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 4 6%
Total 18 8 6 13 9 6 7 67 100%
Scored when Trailing 4 4 1 2 1 2 2 16 24%
Scored when Tied 12 2 2 5 5 2 2 30 45%
Scored when Leading 2 2 3 6 3 2 3 21 31%
Tying+Go-Ahead 14 5 2 7 6 2 4 40 60%

Sakic's clutch goal scoring in the playoffs was just outstanding. 45% of his playoff goals gave his team the lead, and 60% of his playoff goals either tied the game or put his team ahead. Lower scoring levels help his percentages, but even in absolute terms he has more go-ahead playoff goals in his top 7 seasons than anyone else on the list. 12 go-ahead goals in the 1996 playoffs is an amazing total.

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03-14-2017, 05:00 PM
  #121
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Leadership

Among the eligible players, some of them were considered great captains and leaders:

Jean Béliveau
Often considered the greatest captain in hockey history.Became captain in 61-62 and won 5 Stanley Cups after that.Probably the most respected hockey player ever, both as a player and human being.

Mark Messier
Many people pretend that Messier was the real soul of the Edmonton dynasty.In any case, he got the C when Gretzky left for LA, and won the cup with Edmonton in 89-90.He then left to New York where he became captain and won another cup, his sixth, in 93-94.Consistently considered among the greatest captains of all-time.

Wayne Gretzky
Captained the Oilers in their first 4 Stanley Cups.Captained the Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals against Montreal, ultimately losing.He was also Team Canada's captain in the legendary Canada Cup 87, where he ''taught Mario Lemieux how to win''.

Denis Potvin
The prototypical ''franchise player'' and ''franchise leader''.He was the straw that stirred the drink for the New York Islanders.He captained the team throughout the dynasty.Easily one of the greatest captain of all-time.

Joe Sakic
Captain of the Colorado Avalanche for 16 years straight, Sakic won 2 Stanley Cups during his reign.A great playoff performer, Sakic always led by example.He is/was a very uncontroversial player and person, and the soul of those Colorado powerhouses.

Maurice Richard
Became the captain throughout the mega dynasty of the late-50s when Butch Bouchard retired.Probably because he was a veteran by then.Apparently helped the younger guys.I'm not sure how great a captain he really was but the job got done.

Patrick Roy
Roy was notorious as a fierce competitor.Almost the definition of someone who ''hates to lose'' even more than he ''loves to win''.Sakic about Roy: "I played with him as a teammate, he is a tremendous leader.''.

In Montreal:
Quote:
Carbonneau for his part spoke about the hour drives he and Roy took from their Ile - Bizard homes to the Forum - talking hockey all the while as students of the game. They would analize the evenings oposition, go over strategies, exchange ideas and perspectives, all the way to their dressing room stalls, seated next to each other. Carbonneau made reference to Roy's leadership and noted that as captain he passed many of the goalies thoughts and observations along to team mates. Roy felt that not being able to be captain himself would hinder his ability to get things across.
Mario Lemieux
Captained the Pittsburgh Penguins to 2 championships.His reputation as a leader is not the greatest, but he got the job done.I think he is easily the worst long-time captain among this group (which doesn't mean he wasn't a great captain).

The rest weren't captain for any serious lenght of time.


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03-14-2017, 05:03 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
...(long post)...
Amazing job overpass, thanks for that.

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03-14-2017, 05:25 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
It evidenced no such thing. To use the Gretzky example, the Oilers were eliminated by Gretzky's team the first year he left them. Only the next year, after an entire line was created to replace Gretzky (Graves, Gelinas, Murphy -- all obtained via the Gretzky 'trade') did the Oilers win again, and immediately thereafter became only a .500 team before falling out of contention. And the leading scorer in the whole 1990 playoffs was Craig Simpson -- the guy they got for Coffey.

Now, if an injured Gretzky had been sitting on the sidelines in 1984 or 1988 or whatever, and the Oilers had won the Cup without him playing at all and no replacement / changes to the team (i.e., with a minor-league player called up to replace him), then you might almost have a valid point.

Again, you're trying to punish teams for having good players, which is bogus. The first time Mario Lemieux missed most of the season, the Pens improved by 16 points. The season after Guy Lafleur retired, the Canadiens won the Cup for the first time in 7 years. Were those teams capable of winning Cups without those guys, in their heyday? Were they my a**.

The fact that Edmonton -- after trades, and two years of line-up shuffling -- won a Stanley Cup in 1990 in no way suggests that they could have won even one Stanley Cup without Gretzky six years earlier.

Yes, I guess it's fair to give some extra oomph to players' careers if you can show that they got things done in the playoffs even with the team superstar out.

Hmm... no.

Roy was clearly integral to the 1986 Cup win and the 1993 Cup win. I believe that if almost any other goalie (at the time) was in net then, those teams do not advance as far they did. (Though, actually, both those Habs' winners faced tired, mediocre teams in the Finals... the one time they faced a really strong team in the Finals -- 1989 -- they lost.)

In 1996? We're talking about a powerhouse Colorado team with Sakic and Forsberg in bloom. The team was already 1st overall in the NHL before Roy even got there. And in 2001, despite his Conn Smythe, it's one of the stronger line-ups in modern NHL history (I wouldn't have given him the Smythe in 2001, certainly).

Let's pause to remember that Gretzky joined the NHL on an expansion team with 3 other protected players from the WHA. That was the team he came in on -- 4 pro hockey players, and four years later they're in the Cup Finals.
Why not?

The match up was Brodeur vs. Roy in the finals. The Devils outplay the Avs but Roy badly outplays Brodeur. Avs in 7. How does Roy not get the Smythe?

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03-14-2017, 05:34 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Amazing job overpass, thanks for that.
Agreed, that was an amazing post. Kind of surprise at how "poor" Richard looks in that analysis, and very surprised to see how good Beliveau is as I didn't necessarily expect that.

Sakic definitely looks amazing at 60% - I wonder if we *do* have to give some consideration to lower scoring era and closer games as was mentioned, not sure.



Btw - I'm loving your own posts above so far, and your breakdown of top 5 scorers in each player's best playoffs. Very eager to see how Howe looks once you get around to it.

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03-14-2017, 05:37 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Leadership

Among the eligible players, some of them were considered great captains and leaders:

Jean Béliveau
Often considered the greatest captain in hockey history.Became captain in 61-62 and won 5 Stanley Cups after that.Probably the most respected hockey player ever, both as a player and human being.

Mark Messier
Many people pretend that Messier was the real soul of the Edmonton dynasty.In any case, he got the C when Gretzky left for LA, and won the cup with Edmonton in 89-90.He then left to New York where he became captain and won another cup, his sixth, in 93-94.Consistantly considered among the greatest captain of all-time.

Wayne Gretzky
Captained the Oilers in their first 4 Stanley Cups.Captained the Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals against Montreal, ultimately losing.He was also Team Canada's captain in the legendary Canada Cup 87, where he ''taught Mario Lemieux how to win''.

Denis Potvin
The prototypical ''franchise player'' and ''franchise leader''.He was the straw that stirred the drink for the New York Islanders.He captained the team throughout the dynasty.Easily one of the greatest captain of all-time.

Joe Sakic
Captain of the Colorado Avalanche for 16 years straight, Sakic won 2 Stanley Cups during his reign.A great playoff performer, Sakic always led by example.He is/was a very uncontroversial player and person, and the soul of those Colorado powerhouses.

Maurice Richard
Became the captain throughout the mega dynasty of the late-50s when Butch Bouchard retired.Probably because he was a veteran by then.Apparently helped the younger guys.I'm not sure how great a captain he really was but the job got done.

Mario Lemieux
Captained the Pittsburgh Penguins to 2 championships.His reputation as a leader is not the greatest, but he got the job done.I think he is easily the worst long-time captain among this group.

The rest weren't captain for any serious lenght of time.
Good breakdown.

Should Roy be on the list? I know he wasn't a captain, but in terms of a "leader" or a competitor who has an ability to rally his teams to victory by leading by example - I'd not only have him on this list but i'd have him very, very high on the list.

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