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True North: 3% ticket increase on STH (maximum), Too much?

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Old
03-17-2017, 08:50 AM
  #51
folix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stej View Post
How long does TNSE think their ticket inflation can wildly outpace wage inflation in Winnipeg before this comes to a head? 10 years? 15 years? 20 years?

(1 + 0.03)^7 - 1 = 23%

I can confirm, as an organizer of a large season ticket group, that some people are having trouble keeping up with that level of inflation. We'll likely be dropping our tickets when our next TPA is up. Why wouldn't we? With demand dropping, selling tickets that you can't use can now only be done at a substantial loss, and tickets are available all over the place. I work at a large company and I get asked almost weekly if I want Jets tickets by people that don't know I already have season tickets.

It's disheartening to me that True North can't see this coming. Doesn't fill me with hope for the future.


This is the sad truth. Why be a season ticket holder in a group locked into games you cant make or want to go to when I can simply scroll down my facebook page and snag tickets for any game at a reduced rate sometimes even half price?

The 3% on a yearly basis is tough to swallow but the 5% compounded over say the next 5 years is going to be absolutely unsustainable for many people and heck I have a well paying job. You have to eventually find other means of revenue other then simply increasing ticket prices.

Goes with out saying that maybe you should have built a freaking 18k seat arena in the first place and you wouldnt have to gouge the 15k people already going.

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03-17-2017, 09:58 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by folix View Post
This is the sad truth. Why be a season ticket holder in a group locked into games you cant make or want to go to when I can simply scroll down my facebook page and snag tickets for any game at a reduced rate sometimes even half price?

The 3% on a yearly basis is tough to swallow but the 5% compounded over say the next 5 years is going to be absolutely unsustainable for many people and heck I have a well paying job. You have to eventually find other means of revenue other then simply increasing ticket prices.

Goes with out saying that maybe you should have built a freaking 18k seat arena in the first place and you wouldnt have to gouge the 15k people already going.
If anything, I can see a time where sports teams go to even smaller arenas and charge premium prices for the ultra wealthy or corporations who can right off the expenses.

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03-17-2017, 10:24 AM
  #53
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P3s were $4,230 for the inaugural season. They're going to be $4,961.25 next year. That's a total increase of 17.3%. An annual increase of 2.9%.

If the Canadian Dollar ever bounces back to near par or even to around $0.85 - $0.90 USD they can probably take their foot off the gas a bit in terms of annual increases.

The team's cap hit for 2011-12 was $51.9M USD when the CAD was around par. The Jets' cap hit this year is around $66.5M USD. That's 28% higher without taking into account the $0.75 dollar. It's $88.8M CAD - which is a 71% increase compared to 2011-12. I know there are some measures to mitigate the currency fluctuations but that's a big jump. No wonder the new agreements are raising the cap on annual ticket price increases...

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03-17-2017, 12:02 PM
  #54
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Same old group of vocal minority voicing their "the sky is falling" negative opinions en masse (well...30-50 users on this particular site anyway).

1. Back in 2011, I knowingly signed a contract that guaranteed my seat price would not increase more that 3% each season...and it has not. Pretty good deal if you ask me.
2. My one same ticket in the Edmonton Arena is 2.5 times more expensive (season ticket cost)! My other same ticket is 1.6 times more expensive....and one row behind me is still 1.4 times more expensive! To my knowledge they also have an 18k plus seat arena!? The tickets at Rexall (season ticket price) were also more expensive albeit to a lesser extent.
3. I have posted and SOLD (at profit) 25 games both this season and last on the Jets ticket exchange system! Very little issue selling them. The ones that do not sell are easily sold at cost on Kijiji (with the exception of pre-season).

I have cost certainty with the contract I sign...I am not being gouged comparatively speaking to our most comparable market...and this team is being built methodically correct which hopefully ensures I as a paying fan will be watching a competitive entertaining team for many many years to come.

I honestly can find nothing to complain about.

If you don't like your tickets or the spelled out business model pricing structure...give them up!!! [mod]


Last edited by YWGinYYZ: 03-17-2017 at 12:06 PM. Reason: natd
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03-17-2017, 01:03 PM
  #55
Mortimer Snerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stej View Post
How long does TNSE think their ticket inflation can wildly outpace wage inflation in Winnipeg before this comes to a head? 10 years? 15 years? 20 years?

(1 + 0.03)^7 - 1 = 23%

I can confirm, as an organizer of a large season ticket group, that some people are having trouble keeping up with that level of inflation. We'll likely be dropping our tickets when our next TPA is up. Why wouldn't we? With demand dropping, selling tickets that you can't use can now only be done at a substantial loss, and tickets are available all over the place. I work at a large company and I get asked almost weekly if I want Jets tickets by people that don't know I already have season tickets.

It's disheartening to me that True North can't see this coming. Doesn't fill me with hope for the future.
Some of the doom and gloom in this thread is way over the top. I don't think this is though. Regardless of the issues about the quality of the on-ice product they can't exceed the growth rate of their fans' incomes for more than a very short period.

2 pro teams in the smallest market in the NHL, very high prices relative to most of the rest of the league, the end of the honeymoon effect and continued disappointment in the team's performance could add up to a perfect storm situation. It will be invisible at first because of built in lag times but the drop off in support could be sudden when a large block of TPA's expire in 2-3 years time.

Annual small price increases are better than going several years with none and then hitting STH's with one big increase. But those annual increases should not exceed the income growth of the fans.

Question: When the Jets set a max increase in the TPA are they then actually implementing those max increases? Or are the actual increases something less?


Last edited by Mortimer Snerd: 03-17-2017 at 01:12 PM.
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03-17-2017, 01:15 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
Some of the doom and gloom in this thread is way over the top. I don't think this is though. Regardless of the issues about the quality of the on-ice product they can't exceed the growth rate of their fans' incomes for more than a very short period.

2 pro teams in the smallest market in the NHL, very high prices relative to most of the rest of the league, the end of the honeymoon effect and continued disappointment in the team's performance could add up to a perfect storm situation. It will be invisible at first because of built in lag times but the drop off in support could be sudden when a large block of TPA's expire in 2-3 years time.

Annual small price increases are better than going several years with none and then hitting STH's with one big increase. But those annual increases should not exceed the income growth of the fans.

Question: When the Jets set a max increase in the TPA are they then actually implementing those max increases? Or are the actual increases something less?
They've never not used the full escalator IIRC.

EDIT: I am mistaken, see below.


Last edited by Tom ServoMST3K: 03-17-2017 at 01:42 PM.
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Old
03-17-2017, 01:24 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
They've never not used the full escalator IIRC.
Well I hope they don't go to 5%. It may not sound like that much in any 1 year but compounded over 5 years, exceeding wage growth by ~3% would be more than I think the market could bear.

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03-17-2017, 01:29 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
They've never not used the full escalator IIRC.
After the lock out year, wasn't it less? 2%?

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03-17-2017, 01:30 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
They've never not used the full escalator IIRC.
Incorrect.

It has never been more than 3%....BUT it has been (insignificantly) less than 3% on some categories in some years (ie: one year my increase was 1.9%, one year 2.7%, one year 2.6%, one year 2.9%, etc...)

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03-17-2017, 01:32 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Tom ServoMST3K View Post
They've never not used the full escalator IIRC.
Not correct. Two times they increased by 2%. The remaining 4 times it was by the maximum 3%. That's a compound of 17.1% over the period.

Due to rounding, some levels are slightly more than that. I have a copy of the pricing levels from year 1, so these numbers are accurate.

P1: avg: 2.72% overall: 17.4%
P2: avg: 2.71% overall: 17.4%
P3: avg: 2.69% overall: 17.3%
P4: avg: 2.69% overall: 17.3%
P5: avg: 2.69% overall: 17.3%
P6: avg: 2.67% overall: 17.1%
P7: avg: 2.66% overall: 17.1%

Inflation from 2011 to 2017 per BoC:
avg: 1.59% overall: 9.93%

Individual ticket prices have increased by a slightly higher margin.
A games ranging from 3.27% for P1 to 3.22% for P7 average price increase (assuming a 3% increase for next season).


Last edited by cheswick: 03-17-2017 at 01:59 PM.
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03-17-2017, 01:52 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
Well I hope they don't go to 5%. It may not sound like that much in any 1 year but compounded over 5 years, exceeding wage growth by ~3% would be more than I think the market could bear.
Starting this year, all TPAs will have a 5% maximum escalator in place regardless of ticket level. I'm considering myself lucky that I'm in P2 so my max increase is only 3% until 2021.

Interestingly the new 5% rate applies to all TPA's signed this year. The fellow who acquired P1 or P2 tickets starting with the 2012-13 season will be paying 5% more annually on P1/P2 prices effective immediately.



m.

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03-17-2017, 01:57 PM
  #62
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Starting this year, all TPAs will have a 5% maximum escalator in place regardless of ticket level. I'm considering myself lucky that I'm in P2 so my max increase is only 3% until 2021.

Interestingly the new 5% rate applies to all TPA's signed this year. The fellow who acquired P1 or P2 tickets starting with the 2012-13 season will be paying 5% more annually on P1/P2 prices effective immediately.



m.
The 5% is the maximum in their contract, they won't be paying it immediately. They're still only increasing prices 3% next year. For all we know they could just be getting everyone onto 5% contracts but wait until everyone has migrated over to the new rate before instituting a 5% increase to avoid having different seats at different prices.


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03-17-2017, 02:05 PM
  #63
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What P-levels are renewing their agreements this year, btw? Is it some P6/P7s? (The ones that didn't opt for long terms that year it was an option).

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03-17-2017, 02:18 PM
  #64
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What P-levels are renewing their agreements this year, btw? Is it some P6/P7s? (The ones that didn't opt for long terms that year it was an option).
Any P6/P7 that had straight 3 year terms. Or potentially any other levels that joined in after 1 or 2 years. My assumption is they offered the additional year contracts to stagger the renewals a bit. Was that option to renew upto twice the term?

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03-17-2017, 03:00 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ober View Post
Same old group of vocal minority voicing their "the sky is falling" negative opinions en masse (well...30-50 users on this particular site anyway).

1. Back in 2011, I knowingly signed a contract that guaranteed my seat price would not increase more that 3% each season...and it has not. Pretty good deal if you ask me.
2. My one same ticket in the Edmonton Arena is 2.5 times more expensive (season ticket cost)! My other same ticket is 1.6 times more expensive....and one row behind me is still 1.4 times more expensive! To my knowledge they also have an 18k plus seat arena!? The tickets at Rexall (season ticket price) were also more expensive albeit to a lesser extent.
3. I have posted and SOLD (at profit) 25 games both this season and last on the Jets ticket exchange system! Very little issue selling them. The ones that do not sell are easily sold at cost on Kijiji (with the exception of pre-season).

I have cost certainty with the contract I sign...I am not being gouged comparatively speaking to our most comparable market...and this team is being built methodically correct which hopefully ensures I as a paying fan will be watching a competitive entertaining team for many many years to come.

I honestly can find nothing to complain about.

If you don't like your tickets or the spelled out business model pricing structure...give them up!!! [mod]
Excellent, well thought out post.

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03-17-2017, 03:22 PM
  #66
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The 5% is the maximum in their contract, they won't be paying it immediately. They're still only increasing prices 3% next year. For all we know they could just be getting everyone onto 5% contracts but wait until everyone has migrated over to the new rate before instituting a 5% increase to avoid having different seats at different prices.
Yeah doubt they would ever use the 5% before everyone is switched over.... So 3 more years of 3% max for all.

I think the Canadian dollar falling flat on its face since 2011 has a bunch to do with the increase .... Hasn't it lost almost 30% compared to the USD since then?


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Old
03-17-2017, 03:24 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Ober View Post
Same old group of vocal minority voicing their "the sky is falling" negative opinions en masse (well...30-50 users on this particular site anyway).

1. Back in 2011, I knowingly signed a contract that guaranteed my seat price would not increase more that 3% each season...and it has not. Pretty good deal if you ask me.
2. My one same ticket in the Edmonton Arena is 2.5 times more expensive (season ticket cost)! My other same ticket is 1.6 times more expensive....and one row behind me is still 1.4 times more expensive! To my knowledge they also have an 18k plus seat arena!? The tickets at Rexall (season ticket price) were also more expensive albeit to a lesser extent.
3. I have posted and SOLD (at profit) 25 games both this season and last on the Jets ticket exchange system! Very little issue selling them. The ones that do not sell are easily sold at cost on Kijiji (with the exception of pre-season).

I have cost certainty with the contract I sign...I am not being gouged comparatively speaking to our most comparable market...and this team is being built methodically correct which hopefully ensures I as a paying fan will be watching a competitive entertaining team for many many years to come.

I honestly can find nothing to complain about.

If you don't like your tickets or the spelled out business model pricing structure...give them up!!! [mod]
I've posted a few times on ticket exchange and never had any luck. I figured it's due to the crazy fees they charge and the fact that they don't allow you to adjust the ticket price down from face value to season ticket holder cost.

My only other gripe is the lack of weekend games on the schedule. One of the main reasons I became a season ticket holder was to take my boys to the games. Hard to keep them up till 10:30pm during the week when they have to get up for school the next morning.

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03-17-2017, 08:37 PM
  #68
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Ya, a 5% increase for 5 years seems like a bit much. But we are talking about P1 and P2 seats right now (the former Moose season ticket holders who have money to burn.)


I don't know what to say. TN is doing this because they can. Just like the added dealer fees to buying a new car. You want the car? Well it's going to cost you $799 extra for the rim and tire warranty.


This will blow up in their faces. But I don't think they give 2 sheets. They already have a franchise that has at least doubled in value.


Once they realize this market is tapped out, then plan B.

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03-17-2017, 10:28 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ober View Post
Same old group of vocal minority voicing their "the sky is falling" negative opinions en masse (well...30-50 users on this particular site anyway).

1. Back in 2011, I knowingly signed a contract that guaranteed my seat price would not increase more that 3% each season...and it has not. Pretty good deal if you ask me.
2. My one same ticket in the Edmonton Arena is 2.5 times more expensive (season ticket cost)! My other same ticket is 1.6 times more expensive....and one row behind me is still 1.4 times more expensive! To my knowledge they also have an 18k plus seat arena!? The tickets at Rexall (season ticket price) were also more expensive albeit to a lesser extent.
3. I have posted and SOLD (at profit) 25 games both this season and last on the Jets ticket exchange system! Very little issue selling them. The ones that do not sell are easily sold at cost on Kijiji (with the exception of pre-season).

I have cost certainty with the contract I sign...I am not being gouged comparatively speaking to our most comparable market...and this team is being built methodically correct which hopefully ensures I as a paying fan will be watching a competitive entertaining team for many many years to come.

I honestly can find nothing to complain about.

If you don't like your tickets or the spelled out business model pricing structure...give them up!!! [mod]
Good for you! And I will be giving them up. You and I have different experiences. I have trouble selling tickets for half of what I pay for them in some cases, and I've never once had my tickets purchased off the exchange out of about 10 tries. Maybe P5s are less desirable?

I was at the game a couple Saturdays ago and there were only 8 people in my row of 20.

I'm happy to give up my tickets and take my chance on the secondary market. And I'm happy for you that you think things are fine. I hope you are correct.

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03-18-2017, 06:57 AM
  #70
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It's not doom and gloom.
Simple supply and demand issues and economic priorities,
Bad product = less demand.
It's not there yet and probably won't be noticed much for another 5 years or so.
If you are satisfied then you have no issues with prices and escalating costs fine.
Those who have opposing views are just as justified in expressing them.
This board welcomes that.
Any city eventually tires of mediocre teams it's inevitable.

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03-18-2017, 09:23 AM
  #71
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Good for you! And I will be giving them up. You and I have different experiences. I have trouble selling tickets for half of what I pay for them in some cases, and I've never once had my tickets purchased off the exchange out of about 10 tries. Maybe P5s are less desirable?

I was at the game a couple Saturdays ago and there were only 8 people in my row of 20.

I'm happy to give up my tickets and take my chance on the secondary market. And I'm happy for you that you think things are fine. I hope you are correct.
And this is what should happen. As I said previously IMO a lot of people jumped on ST's in the initial frenzy that were poorly suited to be ST holders. Either the cost is unmanageable, the time commitment is too much or they only care to watch a winning team. The ideal ST holder rides out the ups and downs with a shrug of the shoulders and is comfortable with the cost and finds pleasure in going to NHL games even when the team is struggling. The #1 priority is a ticket into the building whenever they want. There are many lifetime ST holders across the world in every major sport that ride out every up and down. They have their team and they support them. As those who don't want their ST give them up they will gradually be replaced by ST holders that are a better fit for the long term commitment.

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03-18-2017, 09:47 AM
  #72
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And this is what should happen. As I said previously IMO a lot of people jumped on ST's in the initial frenzy that were poorly suited to be ST holders. Either the cost is unmanageable, the time commitment is too much or they only care to watch a winning team. The ideal ST holder rides out the ups and downs with a shrug of the shoulders and is comfortable with the cost and finds pleasure in going to NHL games even when the team is struggling. The #1 priority is a ticket into the building whenever they want. There are many lifetime ST holders across the world in every major sport that ride out every up and down. They have their team and they support them. As those who don't want their ST give them up they will gradually be replaced by ST holders that are a better fit for the long term commitment.
Agree 100% ..... If you can't make it to 90% of your games weather you have a full share or even a quarter share give up your tickets! You are relying too much on the secondary sale market .... If I have half a share and go to 90% of the games that leaves me 3 games to deal with...even if I have to sell those super cheap or give away it's not a huge deal....if I am trying to sell 5 or 6 of my 20 games that becomes a bigger issue. You may not be the right person for a share of season tickets if you don't use a vast majority of your ST! Look in the mirror first folks!

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03-18-2017, 10:31 AM
  #73
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Agree 100% ..... If you can't make it to 90% of your games weather you have a full share or even a quarter share give up your tickets! You are relying too much on the secondary sale market .... If I have half a share and go to 90% of the games that leaves me 3 games to deal with...even if I have to sell those super cheap or give away it's not a huge deal....if I am trying to sell 5 or 6 of my 20 games that becomes a bigger issue. You may not be the right person for a share of season tickets if you don't use a vast majority of your ST! Look in the mirror first folks!
I'm in a 4 person group for 2 tickets and have never used the official secondary market. If someone can't make a game we just re-juggle. We all also have kids ranging from preteens to early 20's that clamor for tickets. We actually have an internal demand that exceeds our ticket supply. One of the people in the group is actually on the wait list hoping to get more tickets. And another one regularly taps into the secondary market for more tickets. The key is we bought in at a price point that was comfortable and have more then enough internal group demand wanting to get into the arena.

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03-18-2017, 11:41 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
Annual small price increases are better than going several years with none and then hitting STH's with one big increase. But those annual increases should not exceed the income growth of the fans.
As usual, Mort I must disagree. I may complain about their on-ice progress but I'm not going to question their business model. I think they have to set increases based on what they feel is necessary for the long term viability of the franchise. I don't think anyone in here is in a position to question whether the increases we are seeing are excessive.

This may well involve exceeding a small number of fans' financial ability to continue being season ticket holders. Hockey tickets are a nice-to-have but they should never impact one's ability to spend on necessities of life. However, I have to assume most fans can pay for their tickets comfortably within their discretionary spending budget. So, the percentage of that budget needed for hockey could go up, but that just means making choices as to what things are more important. Maybe you decide to skip that Nazareth tribute band concert, or settle for a Keg steak dinner instead of splurging at 529. Maybe you decide you can get by with those 100 pairs of shoes you already own and keep walking past the factory outlet shoe sale.

Whatever, it's all about making choices based on what you can afford. I have a feeling that the vast majority who have stuck it out this long through some very trying seasons are pretty committed to hockey and will make the choice to spend a smidgen more of their overall income to maintain their seats.

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03-18-2017, 01:06 PM
  #75
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Agree 100% ..... If you can't make it to 90% of your games weather you have a full share or even a quarter share give up your tickets! You are relying too much on the secondary sale market .... If I have half a share and go to 90% of the games that leaves me 3 games to deal with...even if I have to sell those super cheap or give away it's not a huge deal....if I am trying to sell 5 or 6 of my 20 games that becomes a bigger issue. You may not be the right person for a share of season tickets if you don't use a vast majority of your ST! Look in the mirror first folks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
I'm in a 4 person group for 2 tickets and have never used the official secondary market. If someone can't make a game we just re-juggle. We all also have kids ranging from preteens to early 20's that clamor for tickets. We actually have an internal demand that exceeds our ticket supply. One of the people in the group is actually on the wait list hoping to get more tickets. And another one regularly taps into the secondary market for more tickets. The key is we bought in at a price point that was comfortable and have more then enough internal group demand wanting to get into the arena.
I think you have good points about STH's relying too much on the secondary market. I know of people with as many as 8 people/seat sharing tickets. AFAIK all of the STH's I know expect to use all of their tickets with the likely exception of pre-season games. It is the exception when they can't use their allotted tickets.

Reading between the lines it sounds like some of those complaining here are not sharing their tickets or maybe own half shares. Perhaps all they need to do is find more people to share with. Those 8k people on the wait list don't all want full tickets. Surely more ticket partners could be found.

Mortimer Snerd is offline   Reply With Quote
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