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True North: 3% ticket increase on STH (maximum), Too much?

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Old
03-18-2017, 01:43 PM
  #76
Mortimer Snerd
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Originally Posted by nobody important View Post
As usual, Mort I must disagree. I may complain about their on-ice progress but I'm not going to question their business model. I think they have to set increases based on what they feel is necessary for the long term viability of the franchise. I don't think anyone in here is in a position to question whether the increases we are seeing are excessive.

This may well involve exceeding a small number of fans' financial ability to continue being season ticket holders. Hockey tickets are a nice-to-have but they should never impact one's ability to spend on necessities of life. However, I have to assume most fans can pay for their tickets comfortably within their discretionary spending budget. So, the percentage of that budget needed for hockey could go up, but that just means making choices as to what things are more important. Maybe you decide to skip that Nazareth tribute band concert, or settle for a Keg steak dinner instead of splurging at 529. Maybe you decide you can get by with those 100 pairs of shoes you already own and keep walking past the factory outlet shoe sale.

Whatever, it's all about making choices based on what you can afford. I have a feeling that the vast majority who have stuck it out this long through some very trying seasons are pretty committed to hockey and will make the choice to spend a smidgen more of their overall income to maintain their seats.
I understand your points about individuals making priority decisions about their finances but you and I have very different standards about affordability. That doesn't matter though. What matters is how many people are in a position to make those choices. I don't think there are that many people in Winnipeg who are in a position to even think about Jets tickets for more than an occasional game. Then only in the cheapest seats.

I think the Jets did well selling their season tickets initially. They were already very expensive.

Let me pose a situation. Divide up the population of the Winnipeg market. Eliminate all those who simply could not afford even a quarter share of available season tickets. I say available because the distribution has to match the price points of tickets. The number of people left in our total population who could afford the tickets would be much higher if they were all available at the lowest price. Now out of what's left take all the serious hockey fans. That is those who might make the choice to spend the amounts necessary given that they can afford to. Of those, some number >13k currently have ST, either exclusive or shared. It doesn't matter what that number actually is. 8k more who want at least a share of a ticket and who are willing and able to pay are on the wait list.

If the original balance between prices and incomes was maintained we could expect all the other numbers to remain stable as well. If price increases exceed income increases some of the current STH's will inevitably drop out. Like it or not some will be pushed below the point where it is a matter of choice. The greater the difference between price increases and income increases and the longer that continues the larger the number of drop outs will be. Inevitably.

If the number of drop outs is enough people to equal 1000 ST's and if they average 4 partners/seat then 4k people will be taken off the waiting list. Now we come to the important question. Will those 4k wait list members be replaced? That list is capped at 8k so we don't know how long it would be otherwise but it was at approximately that number when they instituted the cap. So it is likely that almost everyone who wants ST's is already on that list. If people see the list start to move faster it would likely encourage a few more to get on the list.

My expectation though is that there simply are not that many more hockey fans with the disposable income available to allow that choice. It is only in relatively recent years that I have had enough money to even consider spending like that on entertainment. I'm not talking full tickets. I mean a quarter share or less. I have had a little above average income most of my life.

What I am saying is that the Jets captured a very high percentage of the potential market between their initial ST sale and the wait list. I don't think there is much more there. At 5-10-15% higher relative to incomes I don't know who they think they are going to sell the tickets to.

If they begin to price themselves above that market they will lose that viability of the franchise. When the size of the wait list begins to shrink substantially it means they have already gone too far. Once it becomes plainly visible it is too late. It is hard to then back up and recapture lost customers.

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03-18-2017, 04:31 PM
  #77
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Not sure where everyone is getting there info but I was told that the wait list is not at 8,000 anymore. Jets haven't announced that but they also in the last 2 years announced that the wait list is full

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03-19-2017, 04:56 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
And this is what should happen. As I said previously IMO a lot of people jumped on ST's in the initial frenzy that were poorly suited to be ST holders. Either the cost is unmanageable, the time commitment is too much or they only care to watch a winning team. The ideal ST holder rides out the ups and downs with a shrug of the shoulders and is comfortable with the cost and finds pleasure in going to NHL games even when the team is struggling. The #1 priority is a ticket into the building whenever they want. There are many lifetime ST holders across the world in every major sport that ride out every up and down. They have their team and they support them. As those who don't want their ST give them up they will gradually be replaced by ST holders that are a better fit for the long term commitment.
None of your overly simplistic criteria of "unsuitable season ticket holders" apply to me. I'm financially capable of paying five times what I pay for season tickets. I'm a fairly patient and staunch Chevy supporter who is happy that we're building properly through the draft. And I can afford the time commitment; I've been to about 150 games since the team came back.

My concerns are two-fold:

1) The complete lack of a free market on the ticket exchange. They don't allow you to set the price you want in order to ensure your tickets get sold. And on top of that, they absolutely gauge you with "service fees" for selling tickets a second time that they've already made money on. I'm interested in supporting the Jets; what I'm not interested in is battling it out on sites like Kijiji or Facebook to sell tickets that I can't use. THAT I don't have time for.

2) Most importantly, I'm not interested in personally financially propping up a business model that relies on ticket price growth that outpaces wage inflation over the long term to be sustainable. There is only one way that ends, and it's a matter of when, not if. I'm sure many people disagree with that, as there are apparently an abundance of people who think nations can afford to let debt growth wildly outpace GDP.

I don't like to say these things. I don't want to lose the team. I simply recognize that the business model that you are so happy to agree to is not sustainable.

In some respects the Jets are a perfect microcosm for the economic world we live in. A growth model that puts growth-for-the-sake-of-growth above the desire to reach a balanced steady-state that is actually sustainable.

I truly am happy that there are people like you living in the area. It will be on your backs that the team stays for as long as possible, and I get to benefit from that. Contrary to what my post may imply, I do love the team and enjoy watching hockey.


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03-19-2017, 05:12 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by nobody important View Post
I think they have to set increases based on what they feel is necessary for the long term viability of the franchise. I don't think anyone in here is in a position to question whether the increases we are seeing are excessive.
How many years of the ticket price growth outpacing "growth of the market" (by whatever metric you choose) is sustainable? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years?

You can't possibly think that's sustainable in perpetuity or you don't understand math.

And now to hear this talk of an increase in the cap to 5%? Scary stuff, IMO.

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03-19-2017, 07:07 AM
  #80
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I have P3 tickets ......... They were $94 per seat in 2011 when the Jets game back in 2011. They will be just over $110 per seat next year. That includes 4 exhibition games that I put little to no value on . I have to pay $880 for my 2 tickets to attend the 4 exhibition games.

At less than $100 per seat in 2011/12/13 I thought it was excellent entertainment value. In 3 years with the expected 3% increase....... I will paying over $120 per seat.

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03-19-2017, 08:33 AM
  #81
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This is an interesting topic.

I've been a season ticket holder from the start that has had to move to Brandon for work since 2011. I didn't want to give up my tickets but obviously can't get to all the games. I started posting my tickets on a local classified site out here and are selling them at or near my cost. I have no trouble at all selling my extra games. In fact I have a list of buyers that demand I let them know first when I will be selling a game. My seats are terrific, lower bowl in the corner. I always chuckle a little because the people out here still work under the premise that tickets are hard to come by and they feel fortunate when they buy mine. That all being said, I'm not sure I'll renew as my company has a suite and I attend 7-8 games a year with clients. And I know you can pick up premium seats in the Bud section for just about any game. So why layout the 10K when i don't have to and still get to as many games as I want.

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03-19-2017, 09:11 AM
  #82
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I'm sure people who own a house are not complaining about increases in price out-pacing wages.

Stej, under our economic model you grow or you die. That's just the way it's set up.

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03-19-2017, 11:48 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Stej View Post
None of your overly simplistic criteria of "unsuitable season ticket holders" apply to me. I'm financially capable of paying five times what I pay for season tickets. I'm a fairly patient and staunch Chevy supporter who is happy that we're building properly through the draft. And I can afford the time commitment; I've been to about 150 games since the team came back.

My concerns are two-fold:

1) The complete lack of a free market on the ticket exchange. They don't allow you to set the price you want in order to ensure your tickets get sold. And on top of that, they absolutely gauge you with "service fees" for selling tickets a second time that they've already made money on. I'm interested in supporting the Jets; what I'm not interested in is battling it out on sites like Kijiji or Facebook to sell tickets that I can't use. THAT I don't have time for.

2) Most importantly, I'm not interested in personally financially propping up a business model that relies on ticket price growth that outpaces wage inflation over the long term to be sustainable. There is only one way that ends, and it's a matter of when, not if. I'm sure many people disagree with that, as there are apparently an abundance of people who think nations can afford to let debt growth wildly outpace GDP.

I don't like to say these things. I don't want to lose the team. I simply recognize that the business model that you are so happy to agree to is not sustainable.

In some respects the Jets are a perfect microcosm for the economic world we live in. A growth model that puts growth-for-the-sake-of-growth above the desire to reach a balanced steady-state that is actually sustainable.

I truly am happy that there are people like you living in the area. It will be on your backs that the team stays for as long as possible, and I get to benefit from that. Contrary to what my post may imply, I do love the team and enjoy watching hockey.
Your first point suggests to me that what you really need is a ticket partner to take some number of those tickets off your hands up front. I suppose you may prefer to keep the flexibility of choosing which games to see and which to skip. But you are then complaining that it is hard to sell the less desirable games. It may not be your first choice but it might be a compromise that leaves you more satisfied with the overall experience. Just a suggestion.

The other bolded bits, absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stej View Post
How many years of the ticket price growth outpacing "growth of the market" (by whatever metric you choose) is sustainable? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years?

You can't possibly think that's sustainable in perpetuity or you don't understand math.

And now to hear this talk of an increase in the cap to 5%? Scary stuff, IMO.
There has to be a limit. I don't think it is wise to aggressively search for that limit. When you add the presence of the Moose into that picture it begins to appear that TNSE thinks they have an unlimited market here, which is ridiculous of course. They are fully aware that they have the smallest market in the NHL. No, that is not correct. They have the market with the smallest population. They have a much larger hockey market than Arizona has. But they know it is limited.

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03-19-2017, 11:58 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by robertocarlos View Post
I'm sure people who own a house are not complaining about increases in price out-pacing wages.

Stej, under our economic model you grow or you die. That's just the way it's set up.
I understand this concept very well. It comes down to the creation of money. It's a subject that I've sunk hundreds of hours of personal time into. It's why we'll see pension plans and entire nations go bankrupt. When there is no concept of sound money, catastrophes are inevitable. In that respect, I don't begrudge True North for playing the game.


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03-19-2017, 12:01 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
Your first point suggests to me that what you really need is a ticket partner to take some number of those tickets off your hands up front. I suppose you may prefer to keep the flexibility of choosing which games to see and which to skip. But you are then complaining that it is hard to sell the less desirable games. It may not be your first choice but it might be a compromise that leaves you more satisfied with the overall experience. Just a suggestion.

The other bolded bits, absolutely.



There has to be a limit. I don't think it is wise to aggressively search for that limit. When you add the presence of the Moose into that picture it begins to appear that TNSE thinks they have an unlimited market here, which is ridiculous of course. They are fully aware that they have the smallest market in the NHL. No, that is not correct. They have the market with the smallest population. They have a much larger hockey market than Arizona has. But they know it is limited.
I organize a ticket group of 14 people for 4 seats. The demand has dropped both within the group and outside of it, although judging by other replies in this thread, I'm having more trouble than most selling tickets. I'm obviously not trying hard enough or smart enough. I have 2 more seasons before my TPA expires so perhaps I'll have to reassess.

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03-19-2017, 12:09 PM
  #86
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Not sure if there is any truth to this rumor ... but I heard the Jets might actually be looking at some method to find share partners for STHs. This would be a good idea I would think. Something like giving people on the waiting list the option to become a share partner.

What the Jets really need to do is open up ticketmaster in Manitoba so that tickets for games can be sold like you can sell them in the states. Give the ticket seller having the ability to set the price.

If you want to see an example of how this works, just check out the Minnesota Wild tickets at the Xcel. If you set the ticket type to "standard" you will see a set of tickets that TM has for sale. Then change that type to include "verified resale tickets"... you will see a whole lot more tickets. And sure some people are trying to make money off this ( $165 vs $89 in the same row ) , but others just want to get something for the tickets they can't use. The cheaper tickets will sell, but at least they will sell, unlike the Jets seatexchange with a fixed price.

The big problem of course is the TM fees. $35 to re-buy some tickets is insane, when all TM does is send an email to the buyer.

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03-19-2017, 12:14 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Stej View Post
I organize a ticket group of 14 people for 4 seats. The demand has dropped both within the group and outside of it, although judging by other replies in this thread, I'm having more trouble than most selling tickets. I'm obviously not trying hard enough or smart enough. I have 2 more seasons before my TPA expires so perhaps I'll have to reassess.
And you herd cats for a living.

Maybe 16 people for 4 seats works better? My point is still the same. You have too many tickets to sell on the secondary market. Reducing that number solves your immediate problem. I hope that the Jets are building in a higher max increase just in case inflation rises and that they don't use that 5% unless it does.

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03-19-2017, 01:09 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Not sure if there is any truth to this rumor ... but I heard the Jets might actually be looking at some method to find share partners for STHs. This would be a good idea I would think. Something like giving people on the waiting list the option to become a share partner.
I think this is a good idea.

It's difficult to go to 45+ games per season, so, having partners who share tickets seems the best way to go.

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03-19-2017, 01:12 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Stej View Post
I understand this concept very well. It comes down to the creation of money. It's a subject that I've sunk hundreds of hours of personal time into. It's why we'll see pension plans and entire nations go bankrupt. When there is no concept of sound money, catastrophes are inevitable. In that respect, I don't begrudge True North or playing the game.
Then we have something in common. I don't even get paid to be right.

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03-19-2017, 02:18 PM
  #90
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I wish TNSE would have a forum for STH's that want to change seats. I've never been happy with my P5's and maybe there's somebody who'd like to trade. I've gotten one offer from TNSE but it had a view obstruction and was way more expensive.

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03-19-2017, 02:27 PM
  #91
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The secondary market for the Jets is probably the least liquid of any team in any pro sports, mostly because of Manitoba's antiquated scalping laws. Most teams have hundreds or thousands of seats available, from the front row to the nosebleeds, and everyone wins. Buyers who value the ticket more than its current owner get in the door. Sellers who value the ticket less than what the market is willing to pay can cash in. Preseason tickets can sell for $10 while the Habs/Leafs/Oilers games can sell for triple face value. This is an efficient market.

But all that said, the hypocrisy of the Jets is amazing. Let's be honest, SeatExchange is already basically team-condoned scalping. If I can sell my P2's for 60% above what I paid for them, that's scalping. I don't care what the "face value" is. I'm making 60% on my tickets! If they would just open up the system so that sellers can name their price, I'm sure many season tickets holders who are on the fence about renewal would be happy to keep their seats.

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03-19-2017, 06:11 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
And you herd cats for a living.

Maybe 16 people for 4 seats works better? My point is still the same. You have too many tickets to sell on the secondary market. Reducing that number solves your immediate problem. I hope that the Jets are building in a higher max increase just in case inflation rises and that they don't use that 5% unless it does.
It does feel like herding cats. In some respects, I'm an unpaid ticket rep. TNSE gets to charge my credit card once a year and wash their hands of us. I'm the one organizing ticket drafts, collecting money, and fielding complaints on True North's behalf. Good times.

I actually don't ever go into a season planning to sell any tickets. Sometimes things come up and I can't attend. It's been difficult to get rid of my tickets in those circumstances so lately I've been giving them away to friends with kids so they can attend. Better than an empty seat.

We had something like 8 computers going when the drive to 13000 was on.

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03-19-2017, 07:35 PM
  #93
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The secondary market for the Jets is probably the least liquid of any team in any pro sports, mostly because of Manitoba's antiquated scalping laws. Most teams have hundreds or thousands of seats available, from the front row to the nosebleeds, and everyone wins. Buyers who value the ticket more than its current owner get in the door. Sellers who value the ticket less than what the market is willing to pay can cash in. Preseason tickets can sell for $10 while the Habs/Leafs/Oilers games can sell for triple face value. This is an efficient market.

But all that said, the hypocrisy of the Jets is amazing. Let's be honest, SeatExchange is already basically team-condoned scalping. If I can sell my P2's for 60% above what I paid for them, that's scalping. I don't care what the "face value" is. I'm making 60% on my tickets! If they would just open up the system so that sellers can name their price, I'm sure many season tickets holders who are on the fence about renewal would be happy to keep their seats.
SeatExchange is completely ineffective IMO. As you say, it's scalping. A ticket I pay $75 is sold for well over $100 depending on the category. I get the face value, but Ticketmaster and TNSE are tacking on significant fees too.

In the last 2 seasons I've posted 10-12 games on SeatExchange and one has sold, the Pittsburgh game this season. I wonder if the Jets are evaluating this kind of thing. They could still tack on fees if I sold my ticket for $75 that I paid, even if I sold it at a loss. You'd think at some point they'd prefer a body in the building to an empty seat.

If we were up for renewal my half of the group would probably drop out this year. We were single recent university grads still living in the city when the Jets came back. Now I'm married with a young family and neither one of us live in the city full time.

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03-19-2017, 08:24 PM
  #94
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I think this is a good idea.

It's difficult to go to 45+ games per season, so, having partners who share tickets seems the best way to go.
I think it is a really good idea as well. Finding the right balance of cost and time commitment is key to a happy ST group.

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03-19-2017, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Stej View Post
I organize a ticket group of 14 people for 4 seats. The demand has dropped both within the group and outside of it, although judging by other replies in this thread, I'm having more trouble than most selling tickets. I'm obviously not trying hard enough or smart enough. I have 2 more seasons before my TPA expires so perhaps I'll have to reassess.
So why are you having to sell so many tickets on after market? That only averages 11.7 tickets per person in the ST group. Assuming you split 2 and 2 that is only a 6 game commitment. If 6 games is too much why even be part of a group?

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03-19-2017, 10:35 PM
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Regardless of ticket price increases, the demand would be massive if the Jets were in playoff contention.

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03-19-2017, 11:40 PM
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Regardless of ticket price increases, the demand would be massive if the Jets were in playoff contention.
This is true. I had no trouble moving my P6's for full face value down the stretch in 14-15.

There was also a ton of consternation amongst Winnipeggers who couldn't get a sniff at playoff tickets. Those days will be among us again eventually.

I'd hate to be shut out of the best thing our little city has to offer. Sorry, Goldeyes games don't cut it.

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03-20-2017, 12:08 AM
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Im surprised this story hasn't made its way into the thread:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...bots-1.4016171

Essentially TNSE wants the province to change scalping legislation to allow them to control the secondary ticket market. Don't kid yourselves, they are not lobbying the government to help them sell your tickets on seat exchange easier, they can already do that by pricing them lower. No, they want the ability to buy and re-sell tickets to big concerts (or Jets playoff games) for more than face value.

As for Jets season ticket price increases, it's pretty clear what they are doing. They believe or at least they are betting that the demand for their product is inelastic - that it's not sensitive to price changes or performance. This exists in several major pro sports markets - Leafs, Habs, Rangers, Nicks, Celtics, Lakers, Yankees, etc. And why wouldn't they? 97% renewal rate for multi-year contracts with agreements that allow them to raise prices up by 3% per year. They will continue to raise prices as aggressively as possible until they hit the point on the curve where demand softens. The risk in this strategy is 1) once the bottom falls out of demand, it doesn't recover (**** off your base, and they don't come back) and 2) that ticket price increases will not effect concession and Merch buying - higher ticket prices often reduce concession spending. TNSE is probably seeing that it hasn't thus far.

Sure, the secondary resale market is impacted as it responds immediately to performance, which effects price up or down. But TNSE has shown that they don't care much about the secondary market - as Scott Brown said last year - "it doesn't effect them, those tickets are already sold."

So, im not expecting things to change unless there is a major shakeup with renewals. Which is very possible given how small our market is, how ****** the product has been and that our ticket prices are already some of the highest in the league.


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03-20-2017, 12:43 AM
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Im surprised this story hasn't made its way into the thread:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...bots-1.4016171

Kevin Donnelly, the senior vice-president of venues and entertainment for True North Sports and Entertainment and a longtime Winnipeg concert promoter, has seen too many fans arrive at the arena painted in their favourite team colours, or parents with a child in tow expecting to see Justin Bieber, only to find out the tickets they bought from a secondary website or Kijiji aren't valid.

"It is immensely frustrating and disheartening. Somebody has bought a ticket thinking they are going to come in and take in an event, whether it's a sporting event or concert, and when you are buying from any of these sites, any place other than Ticketmaster, we can't give any statement that the ticket is valid," Donnelly said.

"Especially if it is on a Kijiji site or something, that ticket may be duplicated numerous times over and you never know, as the purchaser, if it's valid or not. So we see countless people coming to the door and not able to get in because their ticket is fraudulent."


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I've been picking up NHL tickets in Edmonton and Calgary for years through kijiji. In the 20 games or so where I ahve done so, I have never had any issues. Has this really been happening in Winnipeg? It certainly has not in Alberta, or not to my knowledge.

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03-20-2017, 01:22 AM
  #100
angrymnky
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Winnipeg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Shakehead View Post
Essentially TNSE wants the province to change scalping legislation to allow them to control the secondary ticket market.
I'm sure True North is pissed that ticket brokers are making money off of ticket sales in a way that the laws prohibit True North doing. And when they keep mentioning people and children being scammed but nothing about inflated ticket prices through resellers and then pitch the idea that they should be allowed access into this free for all...

Yah - I think they are very concerned about my ability to see a game or concert and pay whatever they decide I should pay.

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