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Calder Race 2016/2017 #16

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Old
03-17-2017, 05:45 PM
  #101
Kelly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Babcock will use his best players suited for whatever situation. He often used his best players on the PK in Detroit. The fact that Matthews has played a grand total of 45 seconds on the PK all season speaks volumes. Most of those were probably him jumping on the ice at the end of a PK trying to take advantage of tired opponents. The narrative that Matthews is some kind of dominant defensive player didn't exist before he started to struggle to put up points.
Nah, from 10/11 - 14/15 Datsyuk played 0:49 seconds per game, and Zetterberg played 0:42 per game, good for 11th and 14th for forwards during that span. Looks like he relied on Glendening, Miller, Cleary, Helm, Andersson, Eaves etc to PK as he's doing with Komarov, Hyman, Brown, Boyle, Soshnikov etc.

Plus Matthews is a rookie, he may see some time on the PK in a couple years, if not it really doesn't bother me, he can still be a great defensive player w/o playin the PK (kinda ridiculous to suggest otherwise).

Matthews has been great defensively for a rookie, I wouldn't call him dominant and that's some extreme hyperbole on your part. But he's been very good, definitely has came as advertised.

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Old
03-17-2017, 06:09 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by LeafFever View Post
That's the same as Gary Lawless opinion as to why Laine will be better.
In Gary's case he has said on several occassions during the season that his vote would be for Matthews. This would have been during the time where Matthews closed the gap and eventually briefly passed Laine in scoring and points. Gary also went along with the theory that Laine needed to outscore Matthews by a certain # of goals to make up for the positional deficit. His opinion has changed a few times this season. Currently he'll lean towards Laine with the points lead and fewer games played stat.

I apologize if I'm wrong but I don't think O'Neil at any point of the season has ever said he would vote for Laine (even when he had his largest lead in the stats)

Lawless catches a lot of flak from a lot of people but I would say one of them has been more "loyal" than the other.

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Old
03-17-2017, 06:10 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Laineux View Post
Far far more impressive? Basically Laine would have to be in the Art and Hart conversation to match Werenski?

Why isn't he up there with Burns and Karlsson in the Norris race?
Your boy Laine has 60 points, Werenski has 44 points. Werenski is 9 months older I think but again, playing top D role on a top team is better than riding shotgun with a ppg Center more than half the time on a bottom feeder.

Matthews is a better overall player at a more important/ impactful position than Laine. Laine might be a step ahead offensively, I'll give Laine fans that. To me the list of impressive feats go in order; Top D > Top C > Top W/ Top G. Unless a player is flat out carrying his team. If Laine was carrying his team, I'd give him full credit but as of right now, there isn't a single rookie who is carrying their team.

It's extremely hard to put up 40 points for a rookie dman at 19. Let alone handle big minutes and play a two way game. Werenski isn't a PP specialist, he's a top pairing D-man and will be one of the top D men of this next generation.

Even the Jets golden drama child Trouba hasn't put up more than 29 points thus far and many tout him to be a top pairing guy.

A 15-20 points difference is nothing if you're comparing a D-man to a forward.

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Old
03-17-2017, 06:49 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Center Ice Scrum View Post
Your boy Laine has 60 points, Werenski has 44 points. Werenski is 9 months older I think but again, playing top D role on a top team is better than riding shotgun with a ppg Center more than half the time on a bottom feeder.

Matthews is a better overall player at a more important/ impactful position than Laine. Laine might be a step ahead offensively, I'll give Laine fans that. To me the list of impressive feats go in order; Top D > Top C > Top W/ Top G. Unless a player is flat out carrying his team. If Laine was carrying his team, I'd give him full credit but as of right now, there isn't a single rookie who is carrying their team.

It's extremely hard to put up 40 points for a rookie dman at 19. Let alone handle big minutes and play a two way game. Werenski isn't a PP specialist, he's a top pairing D-man and will be one of the top D men of this next generation.

Even the Jets golden drama child Trouba hasn't put up more than 29 points thus far and many tout him to be a top pairing guy.

A 15-20 points difference is nothing if you're comparing a D-man to a forward.
Going back to the linemates argument. Good for you.

I usually go talent first but factor in the position. That way I don't ignore talent and just go by position. That could mean missing out on some serious talent.

And Trouba is awesome.

A 20 point difference definitely is something, no question about it. Werenski is not that far behind though, that much is for sure.

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Old
03-17-2017, 06:53 PM
  #105
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Today's rankings by 10Ducky10
Laine
Marner
Werenski
Matthews
Murray

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Old
03-17-2017, 06:59 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by 10Ducky10 View Post
Today's rankings by 10Ducky10
Laine
Marner
Werenski
Matthews
Murray
This seems about correct to me. Definitely have Laine at #1. Marner, Werenski, and Matthews are debateable in their order.

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Old
03-17-2017, 07:02 PM
  #107
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I think Marner is closer to Laine than Werenski and that is no slight towards Werenski whatsoever.
Matthews has fallen and Werenski has climbed...Matthews hasn't gotten an assist since the 3 against the Jets 11 games ago. Marner is a points machine and I would love to see him on the opposite side of Laine.

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Old
03-17-2017, 07:23 PM
  #108
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How does Matt Murray not get any votes? 2.37 and .924 (and a stanley cup)

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Old
03-17-2017, 07:50 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheRocketFlash View Post
How does Matt Murray not get any votes? 2.37 and .924 (and a stanley cup)
Already a cup? Wow, has the chance to get 2 in a year. Give him the calder already. And the Hart.

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Old
03-17-2017, 08:35 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRocketFlash View Post
How does Matt Murray not get any votes? 2.37 and .924 (and a stanley cup)
He will get votes.

I think Laine is the frontrunner right now, but I will admit I haven't watched as much Werenski as I have Matthews/Laine.

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Old
03-17-2017, 08:41 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by grieves View Post
Amazing how much love Werenski is getting all of a sudden. Such a quick appreciation for d-men. Of course he has been beating Laine all season and Laine is definitely not ahead of Matthews.
I have always thought that Werenski and Murray would be in the conversation if they kept up their performance levels and if Laine and/or Matthews trailed off.

I thought it was likely that Werenski would trail off a bit, but he hasn't. It is not just impressive offensive numbers. His GA60 for the season is 1.87 (better than Burns or Karlsson). His GA60 for March (so far) is below 1, which is amazing.

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Old
03-18-2017, 12:43 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
Nah, from 10/11 - 14/15 Datsyuk played 0:49 seconds per game, and Zetterberg played 0:42 per game, good for 11th and 14th for forwards during that span. Looks like he relied on Glendening, Miller, Cleary, Helm, Andersson, Eaves etc to PK as he's doing with Komarov, Hyman, Brown, Boyle, Soshnikov etc.

Plus Matthews is a rookie, he may see some time on the PK in a couple years, if not it really doesn't bother me, he can still be a great defensive player w/o playin the PK (kinda ridiculous to suggest otherwise).

Matthews has been great defensively for a rookie, I wouldn't call him dominant and that's some extreme hyperbole on your part. But he's been very good, definitely has came as advertised.
You don't think that those guys playing as much PK on average in one game as Matthews has in an entire season is a massive difference?

I was just repeating the extreme hyperbole of his fans who think he's elite when in reality he's good for a rookie, and maybe above average in general.

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Old
03-18-2017, 03:18 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by leafsfuture View Post
Leafs fan saying Laine .... unless Matthews goes like 10 goals, 17-18 points in the final 13 games.

Laine's stats are amazing of for a rookie. Only Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin and McDavid can top those.
As real as it gets. Respect for admitting the facts.

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Old
03-18-2017, 05:02 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by TheRocketFlash View Post
How does Matt Murray not get any votes? 2.37 and .924 (and a stanley cup)
He doesn't have the narrative going for him. He plays goalie for the defending cup champs and his coming out party was last season. He also ranks #25 for goalies in terms of games played.

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Old
03-18-2017, 05:57 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by biotk View Post
I have always thought that Werenski and Murray would be in the conversation if they kept up their performance levels and if Laine and/or Matthews trailed off.

I thought it was likely that Werenski would trail off a bit, but he hasn't. It is not just impressive offensive numbers. His GA60 for the season is 1.87 (better than Burns or Karlssoin). His GA60 for March (so far) is below 1, which is amazing.
Its just about position when you talk Matthews. G and D is not important if the name is not right.

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Old
03-18-2017, 06:30 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Center Ice Scrum View Post
Your boy Laine has 60 points, Werenski has 44 points. Werenski is 9 months older I think but again, playing top D role on a top team is better than riding shotgun with a ppg Center more than half the time on a bottom feeder.

Matthews is a better overall player at a more important/ impactful position than Laine. Laine might be a step ahead offensively, I'll give Laine fans that. To me the list of impressive feats go in order; Top D > Top C > Top W/ Top G. Unless a player is flat out carrying his team. If Laine was carrying his team, I'd give him full credit but as of right now, there isn't a single rookie who is carrying their team.

It's extremely hard to put up 40 points for a rookie dman at 19. Let alone handle big minutes and play a two way game. Werenski isn't a PP specialist, he's a top pairing D-man and will be one of the top D men of this next generation.

Even the Jets golden drama child Trouba hasn't put up more than 29 points thus far and many tout him to be a top pairing guy.

A 15-20 points difference is nothing if you're comparing a D-man to a forward.
Sorry but if you don't think goalie is by far the most important position in hockey than I question if you understand the sport correctly. And as for your comment about Trouba, this season has reconfirmed why Trouba is far superior to Reilly. Anyway whomever the calder goes to, that rookie will deserve it as there has been many great seasons, personally I think it should go to Laine (and yes my homer bias is supporting that, just like everyone that touts their own guy).

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03-18-2017, 07:03 AM
  #117
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Aaron ekblad won the calder as a defender with 39 points (13 on the pp) 11 goals (6 on the pp) over mark Stone (26 goals 64p) and Gaudreau (24 goals 64p)

They had played
Eklblad 81 games
Gaudreau & stone 80 games each

So i guess Laine needs 40 goals or something atleast ^^

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Old
03-18-2017, 07:14 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narow View Post
Aaron ekblad won the calder as a defender with 39 points (13 on the pp) 11 goals (6 on the pp) over mark Stone (26 goals 64p) and Gaudreau (24 goals 64p)

They had played
Eklblad 81 games
Gaudreau & stone 80 games each

So i guess Laine needs 40 goals or something atleast ^^
Unfortunately I believe the fact Ekblad was in his draft year, was a first overall pick (more hype) and also Canadian (more exposure) trumps anything Werenski is doing this season in the eyes of voters.

My top 3 right now is

1a. Laine
1b. Werenski
2. Marner
3. Matthews

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Old
03-18-2017, 07:31 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Unfortunately I believe the fact Ekblad was in his draft year, was a first overall pick (more hype) and also Canadian (more exposure) trumps anything Werenski is doing this season in the eyes of voters.

My top 3 right now is

1a. Laine
1b. Werenski
2. Marner
3. Matthews
None of which has anything to do wirh being the most profficient rookie.... If voters are so inconsistent /biased perhaps they should get rid of the award or the voters...or change them ^^ have coaches and players vote instead.. would make it more interestinh probably.


Anyways my top 3

Forwards
Laine
Matthews
Marner

Defenders
Werenski
Skjei
Zairsev

Top 3
Laine
Werenski
Matthews (alot more goals than Marner)

Murray could easily be on that aswell.

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Old
03-18-2017, 08:50 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narow View Post
None of which has anything to do wirh being the most profficient rookie.... If voters are so inconsistent /biased perhaps they should get rid of the award or the voters...or change them ^^ have coaches and players vote instead.. would make it more interestinh probably.


Anyways my top 3

Forwards
Laine
Matthews
Marner

Defenders
Werenski
Skjei
Zairsev

Top 3
Laine
Werenski
Matthews (alot more goals than Marner)

Murray could easily be on that aswell.
It is entirely relevant and exactly what my point is.

It's the reason why Doughty won the Norris last year, it was given to him because he had a good year and "he was overdue". Good ol' Canadian boy gets his due.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:19 AM
  #121
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Yeah, that one cold streak kind of tanked Matthew's chances. I feel like Werenski won't get enough buzz as he's been more under the radar. Laine's to lose.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:24 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
Nah, from 10/11 - 14/15 Datsyuk played 0:49 seconds per game, and Zetterberg played 0:42 per game, good for 11th and 14th for forwards during that span. Looks like he relied on Glendening, Miller, Cleary, Helm, Andersson, Eaves etc to PK as he's doing with Komarov, Hyman, Brown, Boyle, Soshnikov etc.

Plus Matthews is a rookie, he may see some time on the PK in a couple years, if not it really doesn't bother me, he can still be a great defensive player w/o playin the PK (kinda ridiculous to suggest otherwise).

Matthews has been great defensively for a rookie, I wouldn't call him dominant and that's some extreme hyperbole on your part. But he's been very good, definitely has came as advertised.
Closer to over a min per game when you look at their careers under Babcock. I think you have under represented Babcock's usage of his best players in PK situations.



As for Matthews defensive game, I agree with the poster. His defensive ability is probably a tad overstated since his offensive 6 game slump. When he starts scoring again, which I expect maybe as soon as tonight. We may get back to the points race focus that Laine and Matthews which both have been pretty much been neck to neck this year until recently.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:27 AM
  #123
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Matthews may have gone a little dry on points, but he absolutely shut down the hottest player in the league Thursday night (Kucherov).

His contributions to the the team go well beyond scoring. It's what may still see him take the Calder.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:48 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Matthews may have gone a little dry on points, but he absolutely shut down the hottest player in the league Thursday night (Kucherov).

His contributions to the the team go well beyond scoring. It's what may still see him take the Calder.
No, shutting down Kucherov won't get Matthews the Calder.

Being the best rookie this season will get Laine the Calder.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:50 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narow View Post
Aaron ekblad won the calder as a defender with 39 points (13 on the pp) 11 goals (6 on the pp) over mark Stone (26 goals 64p) and Gaudreau (24 goals 64p)

They had played
Eklblad 81 games
Gaudreau & stone 80 games each

So i guess Laine needs 40 goals or something atleast ^^
Ekbald was not even the highest scoring rookie defenseman the year he won it. That was Klingberg 11G, 40Pts in only 65 games and finished a distant 5th for the Calder (with no first-place votes, 2 second place, and 1 third place vote).

For forwards, not only did Stone and Gaudreau have 64 points, but Forsberg had 63.

Each voter is going to weigh the factors they deem important differently. That year they 5 strong rookies, and Ekbald won. I think that a factor for some voters (and in this case enough of them) was that Ekbald was D+1, Stone was D+5, Gaudreau was D+4, Forsberg D+3 and Klingberg D+5. In my opinion, that should factor in on tight race, although I personally don't think that players should be eligible after their D+3.

That shouldn't be a factor this year. And Laine is more exciting to watch than Stone, Gaudreau or Forsberg. That will certainly be a factor for some voters. Last year Panarin (D+6) won because he stood out, but I would not have voted for him due to age.

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