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Vladimir Krutov

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Old
03-17-2017, 09:37 PM
  #26
Big Phil
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There was a time when you had Krutov and Makarov on the same page pretty much. I was always one that felt Makarov scared me just a little bit more on those Soviet teams but Krutov was right there with him. Incredibly hard to knock off the puck. Very, very strong. Never quit on the ice and certainly didn't look lazy and fond of donuts then. The fact that he didn't adjust once he was over here shouldn't mean he wasn't great in the 1980s. There may have been other factors such as burnout, stress, etc. Who knows, but look, it isn't as if Larionov lit it up in the NHL either. Only Makarov was someone you might say was a semi star. Not even Fetisov or Kasatonov were stars. Good players, yes, all of them aside from Krutov, but they also had a lot of miles by then and if you really want to get technical then compare Fetisov to Bourque or Coffey from the time he entered the NHL. It isn't close.

But Krutov not being able to last more than a season was bad, so he is clearly the worst of the five.

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03-18-2017, 10:37 AM
  #27
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
There was a time when you had Krutov and Makarov on the same page pretty much. I was always one that felt Makarov scared me just a little bit more on those Soviet teams but Krutov was right there with him. Incredibly hard to knock off the puck. Very, very strong. Never quit on the ice and certainly didn't look lazy and fond of donuts then. The fact that he didn't adjust once he was over here shouldn't mean he wasn't great in the 1980s. There may have been other factors such as burnout, stress, etc. Who knows, but look, it isn't as if Larionov lit it up in the NHL either. Only Makarov was someone you might say was a semi star. Not even Fetisov or Kasatonov were stars. Good players, yes, all of them aside from Krutov, but they also had a lot of miles by then and if you really want to get technical then compare Fetisov to Bourque or Coffey from the time he entered the NHL. It isn't close.

But Krutov not being able to last more than a season was bad, so he is clearly the worst of the five.
You mean the worst of the five in the NHL, correct?

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:42 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I really can't believe there has been no mention of the elephant in room so far...

On topic, Krutov was probably something like the 2nd best forward in the world at some point. Not for very long, but still.
You could drop that elephant on any Soviet players.

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03-18-2017, 02:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
There was a time when you had Krutov and Makarov on the same page pretty much. I was always one that felt Makarov scared me just a little bit more on those Soviet teams but Krutov was right there with him. Incredibly hard to knock off the puck. Very, very strong. Never quit on the ice and certainly didn't look lazy and fond of donuts then. The fact that he didn't adjust once he was over here shouldn't mean he wasn't great in the 1980s. There may have been other factors such as burnout, stress, etc. Who knows, but look, it isn't as if Larionov lit it up in the NHL either. Only Makarov was someone you might say was a semi star. Not even Fetisov or Kasatonov were stars. Good players, yes, all of them aside from Krutov, but they also had a lot of miles by then and if you really want to get technical then compare Fetisov to Bourque or Coffey from the time he entered the NHL. It isn't close.

But Krutov not being able to last more than a season was bad, so he is clearly the worst of the five.
No, Larionov was the worst of the five. By a considerable margin.

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03-19-2017, 12:20 PM
  #30
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Culture shock mostly.

There are other less prolific, or perhaps less dramatic, examples. When Bryan McCabe came over to Sweden in 04–05 and played with HV71 in the SEL on big ice he apparently looked like a slug and struggled mightily on both ends of the ice. Had 1 goal and 0 assists in 10 games with the club. Next season he was back in Toronto and scored 19 goals and 68 points in 73 games.
Yes the lockout season "mercenarys" comes to my mind also when talking about Krutovs adjustment. Many examples of out of shape guys who don´t adjust in here. I think that people underestimate that. And the jump from Soviet Union was not a small one.

One of my personal "favourites" was when Geoff Sanderson visited my home town in 1994.

December 04, 1994
Hartford Courant
Quote:
``I've been going crazy, actually,'' Sanderson said in a phone interview. ``I told [agent Steve Bartlett], `Send in the rescue team. Get me out of here.'
Full article

. But to be fair Sanderson was young then and he was, maybe not great, but atleast fine.

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03-19-2017, 12:27 PM
  #31
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No, Larionov was the worst of the five. By a considerable margin.
It seems pretty obvious that Larionov was worse than Makarov and Krutov, but was he really considerably wore than Kasatonov?

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03-19-2017, 12:29 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
No, Larionov was the worst of the five. By a considerable margin.
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
You mean the worst of the five in the NHL, correct?
Yes, just isolating it to their NHL careers. No way is Krutov the worst of the Green Unit overall. But he was by far the least successful in the NHL.

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03-19-2017, 01:50 PM
  #33
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It seems pretty obvious that Larionov was worse than Makarov and Krutov, but was he really considerably wore than Kasatonov?
Kasatonov is probably top5 of Soviet defensemen ever (Fetisov and Vasiliev were better, Ragulin and maybe Davydov on par, that's it), Larionov isn't even top20 of Soviet forwards ever.

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03-19-2017, 02:00 PM
  #34
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But to be fair Sanderson was young then and he was, maybe not great, but atleast fine.
Yeah. I've never been to Hämeenlinna but it looks kinda neat and chill on photos. Nice nature and stuff. And not that small. I don't think I would go all angsty there, but people are different.

Sanderson also grew up in the Northwest Territories in a city, Pine Point, that is now defunct and had 2,000 inhabitants at its peak in the 70s, so you would think he was used to smaller places?

But yeah, in his teens he apparently moved to the world metropolis of Edmonton, AB. That's going to spoil you!

I guess it depends on the person, and perhaps also the place. I remember when Michael Ryder played with Leksand in 04–05 he really liked it there. I think they even asked him about it, how he felt about Leksand being a smaller town, and he said he was used to it because he grew up in an even smaller town himself in Bonavista, Newfoundland.

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03-19-2017, 02:07 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Kasatonov is probably top5 of Soviet defensemen ever (Fetisov and Vasiliev were better, Ragulin and maybe Davydov on par, that's it), Larionov isn't even top20 of Soviet forwards ever.
That may be so, but it doesn't mean that Kasatonov was clearly a better player since USSR/Russia was so much better at producing forwards than it was at producing defencemen. I know that Larionov at least won a Soviet MVP award and he was certainly the better NHLer. From my limited viewings Kasatonov doesn't look significantly better on the Soviet team in the 80s.

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03-19-2017, 02:14 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
It seems pretty obvious that Larionov was worse than Makarov and Krutov, but was he really considerably wore than Kasatonov?
Offensively, yeah, but didn't Larionov have a better overall game than Krutov? In the Soviet school centers and wingers could act quite differently. I mean, Fedorov vs Bure & Mogilny were quite different players too. And Larionov outscored Krutov two years in CSKA, so it wasn't like he was always eons behind offensively.

Grandpa Larionov looked like a young stud on that Russian Five line.

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03-19-2017, 02:18 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
That may be so, but it doesn't mean that Kasatonov was clearly a better player since USSR/Russia was so much better at producing forwards than it was at producing defencemen. I know that Larionov at least won a Soviet MVP award and he was certainly the better NHLer. From my limited viewings Kasatonov doesn't look significantly better on the Soviet team in the 80s.
I don't remember, Larionov being Soviet MVP. And Kasatonov was above 0.5 PPG in his first 3 NHL seasons, being very good defensively. Of course, Larionov's career was much longer, but Kasatonov was probably a top2 defenseman in his first few seasons in the NHL.

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03-19-2017, 02:38 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Kasatonov is probably top5 of Soviet defensemen ever (Fetisov and Vasiliev were better, Ragulin and maybe Davydov on par, that's it), Larionov isn't even top20 of Soviet forwards ever.
Only if you completely disregard longevity.

Larionov was the Soviet MVP in 1988.

Makarov was more versatile, Krutov mor powerful, Larionov more cerebral and had the best career of the three.

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03-19-2017, 10:53 PM
  #39
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Larionov was quite non-physical and shifty, right? Yet he didn't rely on super-speed, because his hockey IQ was superb. Sometimes guys like that, if they watch the conditioning, can have great longevity.

I'm also thinking maybe Larionov spoke English better (by end of 1980s) than guys like Krutov and Makarov, which would make his transition a lot easier and probably motivate him more to stay. Joins a really, really good team in his mid-30s -- a team with a lot of Europeans and a system that he recognized from mother Russia -- and then it gets yet easier to stay on longer.

Maybe things just didn't go Krutov's way. But I think he wasn't really that enthused about living in North America anyway. If you don't really want to do it, it's hard to live in a foreign country (I speak from experience).

Fun Larionov-longevity facts:
- Played against 16-year-old Gretzky 1978
- Played against 38-year-old Gretzky in February 1999

- Played against Tony Esposito in 1981
- Played against Marc Andre-Fleury in Nov. 2003

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03-19-2017, 11:36 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
Larionov was quite non-physical and shifty, right? Yet he didn't rely on super-speed, because his hockey IQ was superb. Sometimes guys like that, if they watch the conditioning, can have great longevity.

I'm also thinking maybe Larionov spoke English better (by end of 1980s) than guys like Krutov and Makarov, which would make his transition a lot easier and probably motivate him more to stay. Joins a really, really good team in his mid-30s -- a team with a lot of Europeans and a system that he recognized from mother Russia -- and then it gets yet easier to stay on longer.

Maybe things just didn't go Krutov's way. But I think he wasn't really that enthused about living in North America anyway. If you don't really want to do it, it's hard to live in a foreign country (I speak from experience).

Fun Larionov-longevity facts:
- Played against 16-year-old Gretzky 1978
- Played against 38-year-old Gretzky in February 1999

- Played against Tony Esposito in 1981
- Played against Marc Andre-Fleury in Nov. 2003
Career highlight must be this.



Still remember it today. Gosh that game seemed like it would never end.

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Old
03-19-2017, 11:39 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
Larionov was quite non-physical and shifty, right? Yet he didn't rely on super-speed, because his hockey IQ was superb. Sometimes guys like that, if they watch the conditioning, can have great longevity.

I'm also thinking maybe Larionov spoke English better (by end of 1980s) than guys like Krutov and Makarov, which would make his transition a lot easier and probably motivate him more to stay. Joins a really, really good team in his mid-30s -- a team with a lot of Europeans and a system that he recognized from mother Russia -- and then it gets yet easier to stay on longer.

Maybe things just didn't go Krutov's way. But I think he wasn't really that enthused about living in North America anyway. If you don't really want to do it, it's hard to live in a foreign country (I speak from experience).

Fun Larionov-longevity facts:
- Played against 16-year-old Gretzky 1978
- Played against 38-year-old Gretzky in February 1999

- Played against Tony Esposito in 1981
- Played against Marc Andre-Fleury in Nov. 2003
Larionov was very bright I thought, even then. He definitely spoke very good English and had an accent that made you think he was Swedish or Finnish rather than the expected more pronounced accent from Russia. I always got the feeling Larionov would have been a doctor if he wasn't a hockey player.

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03-20-2017, 06:00 AM
  #42
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He would probably have had an easier adjustment for a number of reasons if he came at age 20. Not the least he must have gotten quite the portion of accompishment winning all those gold medals(Even if it was against real amateurs, this was the soviet philosophy).

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:24 AM
  #43
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Offensively, yeah, but didn't Larionov have a better overall game than Krutov? In the Soviet school centers and wingers could act quite differently. I mean, Fedorov vs Bure & Mogilny were quite different players too. And Larionov outscored Krutov two years in CSKA, so it wasn't like he was always eons behind offensively.
Let's forget about their offensive numbers and compare their (other) USSR/international accolades:

Award/accoladeVladimir KrutovIgor Larionov
Soviet MVP Voting, Top 101st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th, 10th (9)1st, 4th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 9th (7)
Soviet All-Star1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988 (7)1983, 1986, 1987, 1988 (4)
World Championship Best Forward1986, 1987 (2)-
World Championship All-Star1983, 1985, 1986, 1987 (4)1983, 1986 (2)
Canada Cup All-Star1987 (1)-

Quite a difference, eh? Both the Russian and international experts/voters clearly considered Krutov a better player. I watched them throughout the 1980s, and I think Krutov was clearly better too.

I don't mind someone saying that Larionov had a better overall career and thus deserves to be ranked higher (on some list). But for the question which one was a better player in their primes, there's only one answer.

Kasatonov or Larionov? I prefer Kasatonov somewhat (their international/domestic careers), but I don't think there's a big difference.

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03-20-2017, 09:54 AM
  #44
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It's an interesting article, thanks.

He talks about Hämeenlinna and Finnish television being a bit boring, but he also talks about the different kind of games in Europe and North America. About all the passing in the Euro game and not going as much to the net and shooting as in North America.

This is exactly why a player like Kristian Huselius could dominate the SEL offensively in 04–05 in front of players like Zetterberg, Forsberg, Sedin twins, Gaborik, Jokinen and Hossa, because that open passing game fits him to a tee. The closest player PPG wise to Huselius in the SEL that year was Hossa, 1.33 to Huselius 1.44.

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03-20-2017, 10:01 AM
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^ Huselius had some good seasons in the NHL but he never really translated his game fully and was never an upper echelon player there. Even in his best season, 34+43=77 in 81 games on a line with Iginla, he was never close to the elite players.

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03-20-2017, 01:49 PM
  #46
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Just to acknowledge:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg THE THREE PROFESSORS.jpg‎ (71.7 KB, 77 views)

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03-20-2017, 03:12 PM
  #47
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No, Larionov was the worst of the five. By a considerable margin.
The Soviets were very chintzy in handing out assists. Larionov was a passer. IMO if the Soviets handed out 2nd assists in the manner the NHL does, Larionovs numbers would look a lot more flattering than they do. In the NHL there is about 1.5 assists awarded per goal. In the old Soviet league it was about 1.


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03-20-2017, 10:39 PM
  #48
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Tim Horton's wouldn't be what it is today without Krutov's monumental expenditure...


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Unfortunately, he was fond of donuts -- an indulgence easily given into in Canada.


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03-21-2017, 09:31 AM
  #49
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Regarding the discussion about the ranking of the members of the Green Unit their Soviet player of the year voting records suggest that Krutov was considered to be much closer to Makarov and Fetisov in quality during their primes than Larionov and Kasatonov was to him.

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I decided to take a closer look at the Soviet player of the year voting records of the five players on the Green Unit by looking at their voting shares. Here is an example of what I did if its not totally clear. In the 86/87 Soviet player of the year voting there was a total of 89 voters who each voted for 3 players. A first place vote gave 3 points,a second place vote 2 points and a third place vote 1 point. Which means that the maximum amount of points available to each player was 267 (89 times 3). During that season 85 of the 89 voters had Vladimir Krutov in first place and the remaining 4 voters had him in second place which means that Krutov got 263 pts out the 267 pts available to him. This gave him a voting share of 0.985 which is the highest single season voting share of any player in the Soviet player of the year voting history.

Using this method I looked at the average of each players best 7, 5 and 3 years.

7 year average:
1. Sergei Makarov 0.551
2. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.456
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.388
4. Igor Larionov 0.144
5. Alexei Kasatonov 0.060

5 year average
1. Sergei Makarov 0.660
2. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.520
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.516
4. Igor Larionov 0.186
5. Alexei Kasatonov 0.073

3 year average
1. Sergei Makarov 0.747
2. Vladimir Krutov 0.630
3. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.558
4. Igor Larionov 0.260
5. Alexei Kasatonov 0.089

And here is the players voting share for each season they recieved votes.

Sergei Makarov
84/85: 230/264 = 0.871
79/80: 156/207 = 0.754
88/89: 146/237 = 0.616
85/86: 169/282 = 0.599
81/82: 102/222 = 0.459
83/84: 78/261 = 0.299
86/87: 69/267 = 0.258
82/83: 50/243 = 0.206
87/88: 41/258 = 0.159
80/81: 35/222 = 0.158
77/78: 5/219 = 0.023
3-Year: 0.747
5-Year: 0.660
7-Year: 0.551

Vyacheslav Fetisov
85/86: 184/282 = 0.652
81/82: 116/222 = 0.523
87/88: 129/258 = 0.500
88/89: 110/237 = 0.464
84/85: 122/264 = 0.462
83/84: 82/261 = 0.314
77/78: 61/219 = 0.279
82/83: 44/243 = 0.181
86/87: 27/267 = 0.101
3-Year: 0.558
5-Year: 0.520
7-Year: 0.456

Vladimir Krutov
86/87: 263/267 = 0.985
82/83: 111/243 = 0.457
85/86: 126/282 = 0.447
87/88: 94/258 = 0.364
79/80: 68/207 = 0.329
83/84: 18/261 = 0.069
84/85: 18/264 = 0.068
88/89: 11/237 = 0.046
81/82: 7/222 = 0.032
80/81: 2/222 = 0.009
3-Year: 0.630
5-Year: 0.516
7-Year: 0.388

Igor Larionov
87/88: 142/258 = 0.550
85/86: 35/282 = 0.124
86/87: 28/267 = 0.105
81/82: 20/222 = 0.090
82/83: 15/243 = 0.062
88/89: 9/237 = 0.038
84/85: 10/264 = 0.038
83/84: 7/261 = 0.027
3-Year: 0.260
5-Year: 0.186
7-Year: 0.144

Alexei Kasatonov
82/83: 29/243 = 0.119
83/84: 20/261 = 0.077
84/85: 19/264 = 0.072
86/87: 16/267 = 0.060
81/82: 8/222 = 0.036
80/81: 7/222 = 0.032
87/88: 7/258 = 0.027
88/89: 5/237 = 0.021
85/86: 3/282 = 0.011
79/80: 2/207= 0.010
3-Year: 0.089
5-Year: 0.073
7-Year: 0.060

Some comments about each players voting record.

Sergei Makarov: On paper clearly the strongest voting record of the players on the Green Unit. He was the clear leader both when looking at 3, 5 and 7 year averages. He recieved votes during 11 seasons and considering that he was a Soviet first team all-star in 78/79 it seems likely that he would have gotten some serious voting support during that season to if the poll had been conducted.

Vyacheslav Fetisov: Even if his voting record on paper not is quite as strong as Makarovs he actually stands out more among Soviet defencemen than Makarov does among Soviet forwards. The only weakness I can see with his voting record is that he "only" recieved votes during 9 seasons which actually is one season less than Kasatonov. It also seems far from certain that Fetisov would have recieved any votes during the 78/79 season when we consider both his missed time and him not being a Soviet all-star that year. Still his voting record is very impressive and when we consider how much he stood out among defencemen when it comes to top results he may actually rival Makarov as the player on the Green Unit with the strongest voting record.

Vladimir Krutov: A very strong voting record. As mentioned earlier Krutovs 86/87 season is the strongest Soviet season ever when it comes to voting shares. It is worth noting that he was a lot closer to Makarov and Fetisov than Larionov was to him. His 3 year average was actually stronger than Fetisovs and his 5 year average was basically equal to Fetisovs. Krutov recieved votes during 10 straight seasons starting at age 19.

Igor Larionov: Outside of his strong 87/88 season his voting record is pretty average. "Only" recieved votes during 8 seasons. Still Larionov winning the award in 87/88 makes his voting record at least quite good.

Alexei Kasatonov: Of the players on the Green Unit Kasatonov clearly got the least support in Soviet player of the year voting. This can partially be explained by him being a defenceman and maybe also partially by him standing in the shadow of Fetisov. The strongest part about Kasatonovs voting record probably is that he recieved votes during 10 seasons which not was a easy task, especially as a defenceman. He never had any truly outstanding year though even if he finished top 5 in 82/83.

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03-21-2017, 04:13 PM
  #50
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Legitimately, he had some of the best hands in Russian hockey history.

He would direct slap shots or passes pretty much exactly where he wanted to.

First goal vs USA in that 1980 game looks much better in slow motion then in real time.

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