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Old
03-18-2017, 08:24 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrimStone64 View Post
Koivu ? He was small and a piece of glass. He missed almost as many games as he played.
Yet he always produced near a PPG and had great players like Craig ****ing Darby on his wing.

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Old
03-18-2017, 08:56 AM
  #77
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Koivu ? He was small and a piece of glass. He missed almost as many games as he played.
Right, what a wimp. Pfft... cancer?

Koivu is one of my favorite Habs of all time. Played hard, skilled and a great role model.

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03-18-2017, 09:06 AM
  #78
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Koivu was a #1 center but fragile as hell just remember when he played with Kovalev. Top-6 center are hard to find but the Habs have Galchenyuk who's young and will become a true #1 center but we need to find a #2 because Danault is not a legit #2 center except in case of injury. Shipachev could come if Radulov return this summer. Marc Bergevin this summer is gonna play his job anyway if the Habs don't pass the 2nd round.

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03-18-2017, 09:23 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by mrinsane View Post
Koivu was a #1 center but fragile as hell just remember when he played with Kovalev. Top-6 center are hard to find but the Habs have Galchenyuk who's young and will become a true #1 center but we need to find a #2 because Danault is not a legit #2 center except in case of injury. Shipachev could come if Radulov return this summer. Marc Bergevin this summer is gonna play his job anyway if the Habs don't pass the 2nd round.
It's extremely unlikely that Bergevin is fired.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:24 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Yet he always produced near a PPG and had great players like Craig ****ing Darby on his wing.
Then Gomez showed up and Gainey took five minutes to sign Cammalleri and Gionta.

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03-18-2017, 09:37 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Then Gomez showed up and Gainey took five minutes to sign Cammalleri and Gionta.
I was like these MB defenders with Gainey. I thought Gainey did a good job in the beginning rebuilding the prospect pool, wasn't getting rid of young talent.

However, he lost me at the Souray deadline. Then he just continued to make bad move after bad move. Lost so many players with value on years that we were content 'making the play-offs where anything can happen', when he should have stayed the course.

Imagine the shape we would have been in had we not let guys like Tanguay, Koivu, Kovalev, Komisarek, Souray, Streit, etc. etc. walk for literally nothing.

The Gomez trade was it for me. It was like the Subban trade for Bergevin. When the GM finally makes that astronomically dumb move, that's where all faith dissipates.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:49 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrinsane View Post
Koivu was a #1 center but fragile as hell just remember when he played with Kovalev. Top-6 center are hard to find but the Habs have Galchenyuk who's young and will become a true #1 center but we need to find a #2 because Danault is not a legit #2 center except in case of injury. Shipachev could come if Radulov return this summer. Marc Bergevin this summer is gonna play his job anyway if the Habs don't pass the 2nd round.
I would like Shipachev, but I wouldn't bank on him being a 2C. The one question mark I have on him is he has never played in North America so I don't know how his game would adapt to the NHL. There was nothing conclusive for me during the World Cup in September. He was even made a healthy scratch.

Gathering from the different reports I was reading a year ago, he's a great two-way center with offensive upside and plays a responsible defensive game, but that he's not good against physicality, which he will get a lot more of in the NHL than he does over in the KHL.

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03-18-2017, 09:58 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I was like these MB defenders with Gainey. I thought Gainey did a good job in the beginning rebuilding the prospect pool, wasn't getting rid of young talent.

However, he lost me at the Souray deadline. Then he just continued to make bad move after bad move. Lost so many players with value on years that we were content 'making the play-offs where anything can happen', when he should have stayed the course.

Imagine the shape we would have been in had we not let guys like Tanguay, Koivu, Kovalev, Komisarek, Souray, Streit, etc. etc. walk for literally nothing.

The Gomez trade was it for me. It was like the Subban trade for Bergevin. When the GM finally makes that astronomically dumb move, that's where all faith dissipates.
I'm the furthest from being a Gainey apologist? You can actually call me a Gainey basher but take a look at your list. Really?

When he let go of Koivu, Kovalev & Komisarek they were more than done & finished. That leaves you with Tanguay, Souray & Streit. The only one who amounted to anything from those players after they left was Streit. Did you really want him to tie into contracts with those other players just so he could hold on to Streit. Being right 5 out of 6 times is better than most GMs. And also it's not like he let those players walk and didn't do anything with the saved money. He went out and replaced them with other UFAs (Cammalleri, Hamrlik, Gionta was good fore awhile).

I've started to revise my take on Gainey. I think he was doing an admirable job until his daughter died and then he let that skeleton of a man take over.

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03-18-2017, 10:40 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Habs Icing View Post
I'm the furthest from being a Gainey apologist? You can actually call me a Gainey basher but take a look at your list. Really?

When he let go of Koivu, Kovalev & Komisarek they were more than done & finished. That leaves you with Tanguay, Souray & Streit. The only one who amounted to anything from those players after they left was Streit. Did you really want him to tie into contracts with those other players just so he could hold on to Streit. Being right 5 out of 6 times is better than most GMs. And also it's not like he let those players walk and didn't do anything with the saved money. He went out and replaced them with other UFAs (Cammalleri, Hamrlik, Gionta was good fore awhile).

I've started to revise my take on Gainey. I think he was doing an admirable job until his daughter died and then he let that skeleton of a man take over.
The notion that Gainey was going to sell off veterans at the 2009 deadline is pretty nonsensical and shows a complete lack of awareness of what was going on that season.

Look at 2009 in context. He wasn't selling those guys off. The idea of moving Souray is equally silly. He was a huge part of their playoff push.

There seems to be a contingent here that think you either are a legit serious Cup contender, or you are endlessly trying to swap veterans for picks and prospects and there is nothing in between. This opinion completely ignores the reality of the league.

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03-18-2017, 11:04 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
The notion that Gainey was going to sell off veterans at the 2009 deadline is pretty nonsensical and shows a complete lack of awareness of what was going on that season.

Look at 2009 in context. He wasn't selling those guys off. The idea of moving Souray is equally silly. He was a huge part of their playoff push.

There seems to be a contingent here that think you either are a legit serious Cup contender, or you are endlessly trying to swap veterans for picks and prospects and there is nothing in between. This opinion completely ignores the reality of the league.
The 2009 team was blanked in the first round. They lost in 4 straight, and drafted Leblanc at 18th overall.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:08 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Icing View Post
I'm the furthest from being a Gainey apologist? You can actually call me a Gainey basher but take a look at your list. Really?

When he let go of Koivu, Kovalev & Komisarek they were more than done & finished. That leaves you with Tanguay, Souray & Streit. The only one who amounted to anything from those players after they left was Streit. Did you really want him to tie into contracts with those other players just so he could hold on to Streit. Being right 5 out of 6 times is better than most GMs. And also it's not like he let those players walk and didn't do anything with the saved money. He went out and replaced them with other UFAs (Cammalleri, Hamrlik, Gionta was good fore awhile).

I've started to revise my take on Gainey. I think he was doing an admirable job until his daughter died and then he let that skeleton of a man take over.
Komisarek had value when he left. Don't do revisionist history on that. He was exposed as **** when he no longer had Markov making him look good, but he had value.

And yes, Gainey was doing a great job, like I said, until he went out and lost it (daughter died, Gauthier increased responsibility).

That being said, there were a large contingent of people who knew Souray was on the market. That same year (or the year before?), he made the Rivet swap. Gainey had the balls before to make that move and we all knew it was Markov OR Souray. They made the right choice on Markov but they should have gotten something for Souray. A miracle push into the 8th spot is a pipe dream, do what's best for your team.

There's a vocal part of the fan base against any move made, this board is proof of that. If you have a vision and a plan, you can take the heat. I don't want to hear anymore about how hard it is to sell fans on things and take heat since the Bergevin Foxhole press conference and the Subban trade. Moving an impending UFA for futures is a minor league trade in comparison to those acts of General Managing.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:13 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Habs Icing View Post
I'm the furthest from being a Gainey apologist? You can actually call me a Gainey basher but take a look at your list. Really?

When he let go of Koivu, Kovalev & Komisarek they were more than done & finished. That leaves you with Tanguay, Souray & Streit. The only one who amounted to anything from those players after they left was Streit. Did you really want him to tie into contracts with those other players just so he could hold on to Streit. Being right 5 out of 6 times is better than most GMs. And also it's not like he let those players walk and didn't do anything with the saved money. He went out and replaced them with other UFAs (Cammalleri, Hamrlik, Gionta was good fore awhile).

I've started to revise my take on Gainey. I think he was doing an admirable job until his daughter died and then he let that skeleton of a man take over.
What are you talking about? They weren't in their prime but they were far from being finished. Kovalev-Koivu-Tanguay was one of the best line in the league when they played together.

50pts in 65 games and 65pts in 78 games are not finished players especially they still managed to score 50 pts the following season.

I'm not debating if Gainey should have sell those players or not but it's not like any of them don't have any value like you seem to imply.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:18 AM
  #88
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Komisarek was widely perceived as a good player throughout the league.

I forget what it is now, but the rumoured trade package from Philadelphia was glorious.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:19 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The 2009 team was blanked in the first round. They lost in 4 straight, and drafted Leblanc at 18th overall.
I hear that hindsight is 20/20. Is it true?

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03-18-2017, 11:20 AM
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I hear that hindsight is 20/20. Is it true?
It was obvious that the team was in disarray.

By the way they finished in 8th place.

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03-18-2017, 11:24 AM
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What are you talking about? They weren't in their prime but they were far from being finished. Kovalev-Koivu-Tanguay was one of the best line in the league when they played together.

50pts in 65 games and 65pts in 78 games are not finished players especially they still managed to score 50 pts the following season.

I'm not debating if Gainey should have sell those players or not but it's not like any of them don't have any value like you seem to imply.
What did Koivu, Kovalev and Komisarek do after they left the Habs and what did Gainey replace them with? That's the question you have to ask yourself. He needed them till the end of their respective contracts. You can say he traded Koivu and Kovalev for Cammalleri and Gionta. Those two players were better for the Habs than the 2Ks were for their respective teams. So look at it as trades he made.

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03-18-2017, 11:30 AM
  #92
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What did Koivu, Kovalev and Komisarek do after they left the Habs and what did Gainey replace them with? That's the question you have to ask yourself. He needed them till the end of their respective season. You can say he traded Koivu and Kovalev for Cammalleri and Gionta. Those two players were better for the Habs than the 2Ks were for their respective teams. So look at it as trades he made.
That's not what I'm discussing about.

WTK was saying we let them go for nothing, suggesting we could have traded them or sell them if Gainey's plan was not to re-sign them and you basically said they were done and finished so had no value, something that is simply not true.

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03-18-2017, 11:35 AM
  #93
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That's not what I'm discussing about.

WTK was saying we let them go for nothing, suggesting we could have traded them or sell them if Gainey's plan was not to re-sign them and you basically said they were done and finished so had no value, something that is simply not true.
Well, not to get into a war of semantics, let's say I phrased it wrong. I should have said Gainey traded Koivu & Kovalev for Gionta & Cammalleri which in the end proved to be an upgrade.

Now if you're saying he should have literally traded them at the end of their contracts with weeks still remaining in the season, I'd like you to go to the owner and the fans and tell them hey we gave up on this season but trust me we'll be better in the future.

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03-18-2017, 11:40 AM
  #94
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At this point, Shipachev is out best hope! And Vegas claiming Pleky would be the dream.

We don't really have the asset and the prospect pool for 1C trade acquisition. Unless you are open to trade Sergachev which I wouldn't be ok with. Imagine if Philly would have traded Provorov + assets for something like Duchene, they would already be regretting it.

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03-18-2017, 11:47 AM
  #95
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I thought I read somewhere that Shipachev said he wouldn't even want to come to Montreal.

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03-18-2017, 11:51 AM
  #96
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I thought I read somewhere that Shipachev said he wouldn't even want to come to Montreal.
Still our best hope

I suspect we will simply have to live with what he have now at C position for next season, hopefully Galchenyuk continue progressing.

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03-18-2017, 11:54 AM
  #97
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Well, not to get into a war of semantics, let's say I phrased it wrong. I should have said Gainey traded Koivu & Kovalev for Gionta & Cammalleri which in the end proved to be an upgrade.

Now if you're saying he should have literally traded them at the end of their contracts with weeks still remaining in the season, I'd like you to go to the owner and the fans and tell them hey we gave up on this season but trust me we'll be better in the future.
That was the point, that as the team was freefalling one could have looked at the roster and decided that selling was better than limping into the playoffs to get curbstomped in the first round. And that is not hindsight or revisionist history, as injuries started to mount and the team cratered it was clear they weren't going anywhere. Team was .500 from January 1 on, Carbo got fired, 'darkest day', Kovalev sent home, it was a mess.

If Gainey had traded Koivu, Kovalev, and Komi for Gomez, Gionta, Cammy, and Gill plus whatever picks and prospects the team would have been better off.

But that was the Centennial season, there was no way they would have sold and missed the POs. Gainey even had to make a bit of a panic trade for Schnieider to help the PP just to try and get in.

Had the team done this spiral in its 101st season the team would have come out of it much better off.

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03-18-2017, 12:53 PM
  #98
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Given that Duchene is already an NHLer, and a good one at that, MB needs to try to work a trade for him off season. I would not include Sergachev, and that may kill any chance of getting Duchene. I get that.

RNH may be another option.

MB needs to be in overdrive in evaluating overseas players , such as the already identified Shipachev, and any other possible centers ( and players generally ) that may be able to help us.

This team has been woeful in even using 1st and 2nd rounders to even draft centers. I mean, it has been awful. Besides Galchenyuk and JDLR, the last top 2 rounder we used on a center was Leblanc in 2009. With all due respect to the BPA philosophy,for such a critical position you need to ensure you have guys in the system and we simply did not. It is laughable , in a psychotic laugh kind of way, that there has even been a debate about Chucky as a center.

I would also target guys like a Ryan Strome/ Nick Bjugstad as reclamation projects that would add depth to the center position. My preference is Strome.

Finally, draft some damn centers. I am not someone who closely follows possible draftees so I may be out to lunch, but Nicholas Suzuki, if he is there when we pick, seems like a guy to select. He may or may not be BPA but unless somebody else at another position is really that much the BPA, I think you grab him.

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03-18-2017, 01:41 PM
  #99
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The 2009 team was blanked in the first round. They lost in 4 straight, and drafted Leblanc at 18th overall.
Why are you telling me this?

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03-18-2017, 01:44 PM
  #100
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Given that Duchene is already an NHLer, and a good one at that, MB needs to try to work a trade for him off season. I would not include Sergachev, and that may kill any chance of getting Duchene. I get that.

RNH may be another option.

MB needs to be in overdrive in evaluating overseas players , such as the already identified Shipachev, and any other possible centers ( and players generally ) that may be able to help us.

This team has been woeful in even using 1st and 2nd rounders to even draft centers. I mean, it has been awful. Besides Galchenyuk and JDLR, the last top 2 rounder we used on a center was Leblanc in 2009. With all due respect to the BPA philosophy,for such a critical position you need to ensure you have guys in the system and we simply did not. It is laughable , in a psychotic laugh kind of way, that there has even been a debate about Chucky as a center.

I would also target guys like a Ryan Strome/ Nick Bjugstad as reclamation projects that would add depth to the center position. My preference is Strome.

Finally, draft some damn centers. I am not someone who closely follows possible draftees so I may be out to lunch, but Nicholas Suzuki, if he is there when we pick, seems like a guy to select. He may or may not be BPA but unless somebody else at another position is really that much the BPA, I think you grab him.
Use every draft pick in 2017 to select a center. Perhaps one of them might turn out to be a diamond rather than a lump of coal (after all, they both consist of carbon atoms).

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