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How did the Red Wings lose in 2009?

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Old
03-17-2017, 01:35 AM
  #1
ChrisK97
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How did the Red Wings lose in 2009?

Piggybacking off the 'How did the Canucks lose in 2011' thread, I want to dive into the only other time in recent times a team blew a 2-0 SCF lead.

For what it's also worth, until Pittsburgh last year and Carolina back in the day, those bookend Stanley Cups were the only other East triumphs since the 2004-05 lockout besides these blown 2-0 leads.

Those 2009 Red Wings might not have been as dominant as the 2011 Canucks in the RS (Also #1 in goals scored, but nowhere close in goals against) despite at times looking so absurdly good.

It was the last of their 8 straight Central Division titles (They have only had a first place finish once since then)

But unlike Vancouver, they didn't have postseason baggage- not only were they defending Stanley Cup champions (which to me made their SCF loss more surprising since they clearly knew how to win), but they had Marian freaking Hossa.

They breezed through playoff neophyte Columbus in round 1 (who really drew the short straw compared to VAN/SJ), had an absolute seven-game war in round two with Anaheim, and the five game West Finals was a lot closer than 4-1 (Three overtimes, only game 4 was a real example of the Red Wings taking the young Hawks to school).

Like the 2011 Canucks, the Wings won games 1-2-5 at home, but lost on the road and then game 7 at home.

At the time, this was the first time ANY team in the major sports had lost a home game 7 in the championship finals since the 1979 World Series. And the first SCF Game 7 home loss (and blown 2-0 series lead) since 1971.

Now, compared with 2011, there were obvious differences in this blown SCF:

This didn't have a blatantly obvious turning point ala the Rome/Horton hit.

It didn't have an utterly standout negative moment ala Marchand/Sedin.

To steal a line from Big Phil, the Red Wings from what I can recall didn't seem to be playing scared in those losses ala Vancouver.

It wasn't as nasty a series as that one was. No biting here.

And the Red Wings weren't exactly unpopular with the hockey media as those Canucks were.

And in a role reversal of 2011, while VAN squeaked out wins and lost ugly, Detroit's wins looked VERY impressive while the losses in Pittsburgh were certainly not 8-1 type Boston thrashings (4-2, 4-2, 2-1).

And this Game 7 was tighter than the one a few years later.

But at the end of the day, Detroit- like Vancouver- blew the series despite having 2-0 and 3-2 series leads.

And looking back recently, this was the first blow to the Red Wings after a run of close to immortality in hockey for like 15 years.

I feel Detroit has never been the same since. It was the beginning of the end IMHO for one of the greatest runs by a team since the Oilers/Islanders.

Part of me also wonders how things might have changed if DET won that series.

For instance:

1. I don't think it's a guarantee Hossa goes to Chicago if he won here. And that could have been HUGE considering Hossa's royal on the Hawks teams of this decade. Maybe Hossa reverts/slows down Detroit's decline in the years that followed.

2. How differently might we have looked at Crosby if he had lost consecutive SCF? And what if 2016 instead of Cup #2 for Sid was not only his first, but the Pens' first Cup since 1992 and that Conn Smythe Trophy (regardless of how you feel about it) was his first real crowning achievment instead of adding another layer to his legacy that he began with that first Cup?

That first Cup in 2009 did a lot for Sid, but what if he didn't win that Cup and he was potentially Cupless prior to last year?


Last edited by ChrisK97: 03-17-2017 at 01:46 AM.
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03-17-2017, 03:01 AM
  #2
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I didn't follow this series closely but weren't Lidström & Datsyuk both injured at some point?

Pittsburgh also had a decently balanced forward line up with both M. Cooke & J. Staal playing good defensive roles. I remember Staal scoring a turn around SH goal in one of those middle ground games.

Hossa? I don't know. Perhaps he wasn't trusted enough by Babs to play to his strengths? Or not?

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03-17-2017, 03:05 AM
  #3
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for Sid, who knows? timelines changed so maybe he wouldn't have been blighted by injury? Maybe we'd look on him better with those full seasons. For the Pens, maybe they wouldn't have kept Byslma for so long and allowed the bottom six to degrade with the false promise that Malkin and Crosby could carry the team in the playoffs each year like that miracle run.

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03-17-2017, 03:51 AM
  #4
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I didn't follow this series closely but weren't Lidström & Datsyuk both injured at some point?

Pittsburgh also had a decently balanced forward line up with both M. Cooke & J. Staal playing good defensive roles. I remember Staal scoring a turn around SH goal in one of those middle ground games.

Hossa? I don't know. Perhaps he wasn't trusted enough by Babs to play to his strengths? Or not?
Yes. Lidstrom was speared in the testicles in the WCF that year and was playing hurt, and Datsyuk missed the first four games with a foot injury.

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03-17-2017, 04:49 AM
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You mention turning point, Jordan Staal's shorthanded goal mkdway through game 4 with the Pens trailing was the turning point...

This had a very "here we go again" feel to it...down 2-0 in the series, now 2-1 but trailing at home in game 4...Staal abuses Brian Rafalski and uses his reach to beat the limited-push Osgood to tie the game. That turned doubt into belief.

The 2008 Wings were just untouchable...the 09 team wasn't quite as dominant, but Osgood was better in the 09 playoffs than he was in 08. In 08, he was the only hope the Pens had because he was by far the weakest link. In fact, I firmly believe with a modern blocking style goalie they would have won 16 straight or thereabouts...in 09 Osgood was tougher to beat, but like the 83-84 switchover, the Pens were a year more ready and the Wings were a year older on the wrong side of the sand timer...

The Pens loosened the reigns offensively a bit with the coaching change from Michel Therien to Dan Bylsma in February...however, unlike Bylsma teams after that point, the Pens were still allowed to cycle in the offensive zone...the Cooke-Staal-Kennedy contigent had a strong series and made the Pens a three-line threat despite some sub-top-6 talent playing in their top six (Game 7 hero Maxime Talbot playing with Evgeni Malkin for instance)...

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03-17-2017, 08:46 AM
  #6
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I remember Red Wings management talking about that Staal goal being the turning point in the series, too. I also agree that Detroit was less of a well oiled machine that year but had even more offense with the addition of Hossa, and Osgood played even better than in '08. The problem was that they limped into the finals and then the NHL changed things up on top of that with a "unique" start to the series:

'06 - Finals started 3 days after Conference Finals ended with 1 day off after game 1 of Finals
'07 - Finals started 3 days after Conference Finals ended with 2 days off after game 1 of Finals
'08 - Finals started 4 days after Conference Finals ended with 1 day off after game 1 of Finals
'09 - Finals started 2 days after Conference Finals ended with back to back games and 3 in 4 days
'10 - Finals started 4 days after Conference Finals ended with 1 day off after game 1 of Finals
'11 - Finals started 4 days after Conference Finals ended with 2 days off after game 1 of Finals
'12 - Finals started 4 days after Conference Finals ended with 1 day off after game 1 of Finals
'13 - Finals started 3 days after Conference Finals ended with 2 days off after game 1 of Finals

The Penguins ended up winning a war of attrition but most of the damage was done before the series even started in my opinion.

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03-17-2017, 09:16 AM
  #7
Mike Farkas
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This is one of those tired old "you can't please everyone" deals...the NHL had a shot to get its biggest stars and biggest games on Saturday and Sunday night in primetime and it took it...

So people say "ah, you never grow the game, you don't market it right!" right up until it's inconvenient for them and then it's "I can't believe they accelerated the clock because Datsyuk was hurt!"

I blame Mickey Redmond...

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03-17-2017, 09:50 AM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
This is one of those tired old "you can't please everyone" deals...the NHL had a shot to get its biggest stars and biggest games on Saturday and Sunday night in primetime and it took it...

So people say "ah, you never grow the game, you don't market it right!" right up until it's inconvenient for them and then it's "I can't believe they accelerated the clock because Datsyuk was hurt!"

I blame Mickey Redmond...
Us Wings fans had a right to be upset about it and it wasn't only Datsyuk. Lidstrom and Ericsson needed surgery right before the series and the walking wounded were too numerous to list. They just finished off a 5 game series with Chicago that included 3 OT games, including the series clincher, and the NHL thinks "this is a good time to speed up the schedule like never before with back to backs and 3 games in 4 nights." By the way, it got out that the NHL GMs had actually agreed it would be best try to "build up the finals" a la the Superbowl by being in the host city for the start of the finals for a few days before it started. This all went out the window and the excuses about Conan and wanting to showcase the games on a weekend came out... as if there couldn't possibly be another way.

It honestly hurt the product on the ice, too. It should have been a fun and skilled series but it was more of a grind it out type of style. A regular schedule would have helped this and not looked so fishy. My team looked like they were skating in mud even though they won the first two games.

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03-17-2017, 09:52 AM
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Yeah, I've seen these claims before from Red Wings fans...it's an unfortunate one. I still blame Mickey Redmond...

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03-17-2017, 10:00 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Yeah, I've seen these claims before from Red Wings fans...it's an unfortunate one. I still blame Mickey Redmond...
I don't recall what Mickey had to say. I do remember Babcock sitting down for the first press conference before the finals started and asked what the rush was for. I guess they didn't get good ratings for the back to back games on a weekend because they haven't done it since.

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03-17-2017, 10:31 AM
  #11
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2. How differently might we have looked at Crosby if he had lost consecutive SCF? And what if 2016 instead of Cup #2 for Sid was not only his first, but the Pens' first Cup since 1992 and that Conn Smythe Trophy (regardless of how you feel about it) was his first real crowning achievment instead of adding another layer to his legacy that he began with that first Cup?

That first Cup in 2009 did a lot for Sid, but what if he didn't win that Cup and he was potentially Cupless prior to last year?
To answer the question at large. Penguins had the best player in that matchup. They also had the 2nd best player. As good as the Detroit "team" was, great players can tip the scale in another team's favor. That's why Detroit lost

Regarding the quoted above on Crosby. I'm sure Crosby would be getting a lot of flack career-wise if he hadn't won any cup in 2009 and none until 2016. Though i don't think the "flack" he would get would necessarily be huge (like Ovy for example). Couple of reasons why:

- Crosby did make it to the finals in 2008. Had a heroic performance in those playoffs, against a LOADED detroit team
- Had just as strong a performance the next year again

I'm sure there would be some dialogue of him not being able to "win the big one" - but it probably wouldn't be as big as it is for someone like Ovy right now who hasn't even made it past round 2.

As a big Crosby fan - I can say that I personally absolutely would give Crosby "flack" for not winning the big one if he hadn't won in 2009. It would bother me a lot. So I think the 2009 win does a LOT for his legacy. But it still wouldn't be a terrible thing for him if he hadn't won.

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03-17-2017, 10:32 AM
  #12
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Yes. Lidstrom was speared in the testicles in the WCF that year and was playing hurt, and Datsyuk missed the first four games with a foot injury.
This....it's what cost us the most in the finals that year, lousy injuries. In a close 2nd, that 7 game series with Anaheim took a lot out of us, I believe.

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03-17-2017, 10:58 AM
  #13
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I don't recall what Mickey had to say. I do remember Babcock sitting down for the first press conference before the finals started and asked what the rush was for. I guess they didn't get good ratings for the back to back games on a weekend because they haven't done it since.
Oh, I have no idea either...I just know what he has produced in his time on FS-Detroit.

Either way, I believe it was the best games 1 and 2 in a decade...

Has the opportunity presented itself again since...?

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03-17-2017, 11:25 AM
  #14
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The injuries to Lidstrom and Datsyuk were the primary reasons that Detroit didn't replicate the previous year's result. Malkin also played much better in 2009, though part of that was because Detroit went all out focusing on Crosby because Malkin had been so bad in 2008. I have basically no doubt that with even health, either Detroit has Lidstrom and Datsyuk at or near regular playoff capacity or Pittsburgh has a hobbled Gonchar and no Malkin/Crosby for four games and then hobbled for the rest of the series, Detroit wins in six or better again.

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03-17-2017, 11:40 AM
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Many reasons they lost.

They scheduling didn't help, neither did the officials allowing Pittsburgh to play with too many men on the ice for almost a minute in game 3. I believe the Wings were leading by one goal when it happened. Who knows what happens if the NHL's refs call the penalty there like they're supposed to. Malkin not getting suspended despite getting an instigator at the end of game 2 was a joke. The league clearly favored the Pens on that one. The injuries didn't help either. Datsyuk, Lidstrom, even supposedly Hossa were hurt.

At the same time, the Wings didn't do themselves any favors. Rafalski screwing up that play against Staal when the Wings were ahead by one. Wasn't that a 5 on 3? Cleary missing a breakaway in the dying moments of game 6. Brad Stuart crapping himself in game 7 on both of Talbot's goals. Too many mistakes. The team just ran out of steam by games 6 and 7.

To their credit, the Pens defended well in games 6 and 7 and blocked tons of shots. They really stepped it up shutting down the Wings in those two games. Fleury was very strong from what I remember. Crosby and Malkin were invisible the last three games of the series, so it had to be won defensively for Pittsburgh.


This loss hurt, but Vancouver's loss was worse. The Canucks never won the Cup before and can't say injuries or officiating was the reason they lost. The Canucks got decimated in the four games they lost to the Bruins and got pushed around badly.


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03-17-2017, 12:00 PM
  #16
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So in others words, the Wings lost because of others (and they won because of themselves).

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Many reasons they lost.

They scheduling didn't help, neither did the officials allowing Pittsburgh to play with too many men on the ice for almost a minute in game 3. I believe the Wings were leading by one goal when it happend. Who knows what happens if the NHL's refs call the penalty there like they're supposed to. Malkin not getting suspended despite getting an instigator at the end of game 2 was a joke. The league clearly favored the Pens on that one. The injuries didn't help either. Datsyuk, Lidstrom, even supposedly Hossa were hurt.

At the same time, the Wings didn't do themselves any favors. Rafalski screwing up that play against Staal when the Wings were ahead by one. Wasn't that a 5 on 3? Cleary missing a breakaway in the dying moments of game 6. Brad Stuart crapping himself in game 7 on both of Talbot's goals. Too many mistakes. The team just ran out of steam by games 6 and 7.

To their credit, the Pens defended well in games 6 and 7 and blocked tons of shots. They really stepped it up shutting down the Wings in those two games. Fleury was very strong from what I remember. Crosby and Malkin were invisible the last three games of the series, so it had to be won defensively for Pittsburgh.


This loss hurt, but it has to be worse than Vancouver's loss. The Canucks never won the Cup before and can't say injuries or officiating was the reason they lost. The Canucks got decimated in the four games they lost to the Bruins and got pushed around badly.

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03-17-2017, 12:29 PM
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I was outraged when I've heard about a two day break between the series. Anybody with a pair of eyes could see that the Wings were absolutely gassed and had nothing left in the tank. They managed to win three games on sheer experience and willpower, but it was truly painful to watch. Not since Yzerman propping himself up with a stick in 02 I saw the Wings play with injuries like that.

Hossa grossly underperformed in those playoffs.


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03-17-2017, 12:50 PM
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So in others words, the Wings lost because of others (and they won because of themselves).
Not sure what you mean, but my post listed many factors, as there usually are, in a close series. Combination of many things.

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03-17-2017, 12:54 PM
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Not sure what you mean, but my post listed many factors, as there usually are, in a close series. Combination of many things.
...And most of them being a conspiracy against the Wings. LOL.

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03-17-2017, 01:26 PM
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...And most of them being a conspiracy against the Wings. LOL.
I gave the Pens credit and blamed the Wings for making some major mistakes. Maybe you didn't read the entire post.

However, it definitely stunk when Malkin didn't get suspended despite clearly violating the league's policy about taking an instigator in the last few minutes. The league didn't want a star player to miss the next game when his team was down 2-0 in the series. You don't believe that's what happened? Then tell me why he wasn't suspended for game 3 based on the rule?

The too many men likely wasn't part of a conspiracy, but I can't remember ever seeing a team playing with a man advantage for that long, without a powerplay, and not have the refs notice it. It looked like something out of pro wrestling when the ref has his back turned while another wrestler uses a foreign object to hit his opponent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3WmdGZZWDQ


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03-17-2017, 01:39 PM
  #21
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Us Wings fans had a right to be upset about it and it wasn't only Datsyuk. Lidstrom and Ericsson needed surgery right before the series and the walking wounded were too numerous to list. They just finished off a 5 game series with Chicago that included 3 OT games, including the series clincher, and the NHL thinks "this is a good time to speed up the schedule like never before with back to backs and 3 games in 4 nights." By the way, it got out that the NHL GMs had actually agreed it would be best try to "build up the finals" a la the Superbowl by being in the host city for the start of the finals for a few days before it started. This all went out the window and the excuses about Conan and wanting to showcase the games on a weekend came out... as if there couldn't possibly be another way.

It honestly hurt the product on the ice, too. It should have been a fun and skilled series but it was more of a grind it out type of style. A regular schedule would have helped this and not looked so fishy. My team looked like they were skating in mud even though they won the first two games.
Wings had a lot more injuries than the Pens as well. I think it was Letang as well who noticed the Wings were ripped up and told his teammates they had a chance that year.

Then you had the special officiating. Have you seen a playoffs since then that was so strict about "obstruction" and face-offs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobholly39 View Post
To answer the question at large. Penguins had the best player in that matchup. They also had the 2nd best player. As good as the Detroit "team" was, great players can tip the scale in another team's favor. That's why Detroit lost
Yes, Lidstrom was just chopped liver, and Datsyuk wasn't someone who really did much either.

Quote:
Regarding the quoted above on Crosby. I'm sure Crosby would be getting a lot of flack career-wise if he hadn't won any cup in 2009 and none until 2016. Though i don't think the "flack" he would get would necessarily be huge (like Ovy for example). Couple of reasons why:

- Crosby did make it to the finals in 2008. Had a heroic performance in those playoffs, against a LOADED detroit team
- Had just as strong a performance the next year again

I'm sure there would be some dialogue of him not being able to "win the big one" - but it probably wouldn't be as big as it is for someone like Ovy right now who hasn't even made it past round 2.

As a big Crosby fan - I can say that I personally absolutely would give Crosby "flack" for not winning the big one if he hadn't won in 2009. It would bother me a lot. So I think the 2009 win does a LOT for his legacy. But it still wouldn't be a terrible thing for him if he hadn't won.
One player has never been able to win the Cups.

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03-17-2017, 01:42 PM
  #22
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I was outraged when I've heard about a two day break between the series. Anybody with a pair of eyes could see that the Wings were absolutely gassed and had nothing left in the tank. They managed to win three games on sheer experience and willpower, but it was truly painful to watch. Not since Yzerman propping himself up with a stick in 02 I saw the Wings play with injuries like that.

Hossa grossly underperformed in those playoffs.
Hossa had a ripped up shoulder, iirc.

But yes, the NHL's management of that series was horrific.

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...And most of them being a conspiracy against the Wings. LOL.
What in the world, MXD? That Wings team had Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Rafalski, playoff Osgood, Stuart, Filppula, Kronwall, etc. It wasn't exactly powder puffs, plus they were the defending champion.

Pittsburgh has yet to achieve a roster with as notable an assembly as the Wings had that year.

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03-17-2017, 03:16 PM
  #23
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A crossbar and miracle save.

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03-17-2017, 03:21 PM
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A crossbar and miracle save.
That's pretty much the way of it! A few inches and it was back-to-back cups.

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03-17-2017, 04:39 PM
  #25
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That's pretty much the way of it! A few inches and it was back-to-back cups.
Even if one of those goals is scored, that would have tied the game, not given them the lead. And OT would have been a crapshoot. Because we have seen a lot of instances where a team gives up a late crushing goal and still wins in OT (See Flames/Canucks 2004)

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