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How did the Red Wings lose in 2009?

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Old
03-21-2017, 06:31 AM
  #51
ArGarBarGar
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Originally Posted by HowsUrBreath View Post
it isn't?

people think the league went out of their way to schedule the games in a way to hurt the beat up wings

accusing the refs of intentionally ignoring penalties against the pens

giving malkin a pass for the fight at the end of game 2

sounds to me people think the NHL officials got together and decided to do all they can to help the pens win the cup and screw over the wings, which would be a conspiracy right?
People believe the NHL made a rash decision which hurt the Wings more because of their current injuries. There is a minority that thinks there was any conspiracy involved.

I don't agree with those who think the NHL did the wrong thing with the Malkin suspension.

I was annoyed with the whole "two many men" non-call in game 3 (I think) where apparently the official saw they had too many and was telling someone to get off the ice. Like, call the damn penalty. Conspiracy, though? No.

All in all, these are annoyances from a fan of the losing side. To win the cup you gotta get those breaks and capitalize on them, sometimes. The Wings didn't, and didn't capitalize. The Penguins did, and were able to get their revenge.

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The odds of this turning into a place for Mickey's minions to just blather endlessly about how the world is out to get them and only them paid less than 1:1...
Huh?

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Old
03-21-2017, 09:00 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tweed View Post
But now ask yourself this... if you could rewrite history, and serve Geno that suspension, and let the Finals unfold from there... without knowing the end result... would you be prepared to stick by that ruling knowing that at some point down the road an elite-level Red Wing is going to do the exact same thing, in the exact same scenario? (In other words, do you really think it's a good rule?). Because if not, then you really need to stop using "Geno should have been suspended!!!" as an excuse, and as an example of favouritism. Honestly.

If that was Zetterberg, he wouldn't have been suspended either... you do realize that, right?

This is one of the most bizarre arguments I have ever heard. Can you imagine Zetterberg, who is as classy as it gets, or Datsyuk, or Lidstrom do what Malkin did? The guys were class incarnate!

Chelios or Shanahan could be rough, I guess, but not exactly known for their "unsportsmanlike​ behavior."

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Old
03-21-2017, 09:42 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
This is one of the most bizarre arguments I have ever heard. Can you imagine Zetterberg, who is as classy as it gets, or Datsyuk, or Lidstrom do what Malkin did? The guys were class incarnate!

Chelios or Shanahan could be rough, I guess, but not exactly known for their "unsportsmanlike​ behavior."
I don't think about those guys at all... so no, I can't imagine them doing that. You're struggling with understanding the point of the argument, because you're getting hung up on the name, and not the role of the player and the point of the rule.

My point was, Malkin is not an enforcer that a coach sends out in the last 5 minutes of a game to crack skulls for wrong doings in lost games that are out of hand. In other words, the rule wasn't added for Malkins or Zetterbergs. And they certainly didn't foresee the possibility of actually having to enforce the rule in a most pivotal game on the biggest stage with the whole world watching. It was meant to keep things civil and reduce the presence and shenanigans of goons, in the other 99.99% of the games.

But yes, he should have been suspended, because those are the rules.

Did the Wings lose game 3 because Geno wasn't suspended for something he did in Game 2?

You could make a case for "yes maybe" if the Pens had won the first 2 games with Geno in the line-up and because Geno won those games for them.

Or if the Wings had lost the first 2 games with Geno out of the lineup, save and except for his surprise late 3rd period game-ending appearance where he ripped out of the dressing room WWF style, to beat the snot out of Zetterberg or whoever it was he went bananas on.

But I really don't think that Geno escaping the law, is the reason the Pens won the Cup Red Wings lost the Cup, and I do think people making that claim are really reaching.

Aside from that, I hate rules that are only applicable at specific times in the game. That stuff is stupid. When you have rules like that, it pretty much tips the NHL's hand as to how ill-devised their solutions to problems are... as well as, highlights the fact that it was implemented specifically to address a single emerging problem, and not as an attempt to improve the actual game/sport itself.

I wouldn't have squawked one bit, regardless of who won the Cup, if Zetterberg had lost his **** and (omg) "started a fight"... and the league didn't suspend him for it.

(Maybe a different story if he Transformered™ into Bob Probert and perma-scrambled Geno's brains. Then yeah, I'll be honest, I'm not sure how I would have felt about it. I might have been wondering if he was going to get suspended, if I had remembered that rule was in place. I doubt I'd call Jesse Ventura about it 10 years later though.)


Last edited by Tweed: 03-21-2017 at 12:21 PM.
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Old
03-22-2017, 04:16 PM
  #54
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Then the NHL makes a national commercial in the summer showing highlights of the finals and every clip shows only pro Penguin plays and goals. Weird stuff. Babcock mentioned this at one point, too.

But yeah, when the schedule was released there was a lot of talk about it because it was so strange and everyone knew the injury situation for Detroit was severe. The best defenseman and best two-way centre in the world both miss the end of the WCF and suddenly the finals is supposed to start with a 2 day break and then 3 games in 4 days? It was unheard of at the time and they haven't done it since. Looks too suspicious to not think about a conspiracy.
I do remember that. Crosby was THE face of the NHL then. He sold tickets. The NHL did plaster his face around a lot more than you may have expected. Call it marketing if you will. Over the top marketing perhaps, but still marketing. If you strapped all of the professional leagues in the world to a polygraph you would probably get some straight answers about what the leagues WANT but you would see it doesn't always come to fruition. You really think the NFL wanted to have the Ravens and 49ers in the Super Bowl a few years back? No, not preferably, but they did. Carolina and Edmonton in the Cup final in 2006? Huh? Yeah, even as a Canadian I know that was a terrible marketing match up. Pittsburgh vs. Detroit in back to back years was good for the game, so I can see the NHL exploiting that the best they can, but they can't fix the games.

Remember, the whole "they started with two days in a row thing" has been explained quite a bit by now. This was the NHL pandering to NBC not to get in the way of the debut of Conan on the Tonight Show. This is why it was Saturday and Sunday to start the series and that is the only reason. I just don't get how a Wings fan can still be upset about that though. They won the first two games and I wouldn't say they played particularly good in either of them either. But the point of the matter is the complaint is null and void once you realize the Wings actually benefitted from it by being up 2-0.

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That's not even true. Teams are reported on all summer now and there are beat reporters following teams so if you are paying attention you will hear about their injuries, win or lose. The Penguins did not have even close the amount, nor severity, of injuries that the Red Wings had so stop trying to pretend they did.
Because as fans we know everything? This isn't the NFL. You can say "upper body injury" and leave it at that. Also, let's not try and pretend players don't hide injuries during the postseason. It happens ALL of the time. You are trying to tell me that playing 4 playoff rounds where two of them go the distance that there weren't some Pens with some tender injuries that didn't make the papers? Come on.

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They were up 2-0 but they looked gassed and won by gritting it out. Being worn down like that helped turn the tide in the series. Maybe the Pens still win, who knows, but it would have been nice if the NHL could have went with a regular finals schedule when they knew Detroit finished off the last series without Datsyuk, Lidstrom, or Ericsson. Instead it seemed like the league just piled on and made it even more difficult with a one-time rush schedule.
How long do you want them to wait and just how much preferential treatment did you want your team to have? Datsyuk didn't come back until Game 5, you want them waiting that long?

By the way, let's look at this "harsh" schedule:

May 30 - Game 1
May 31 - Game 2
June 2 - Game 3
June 4 - Game 4
June 6 - Game 5
June 9 - Game 6
June 12 - Game 7

There are 6 days in between Game 5 and 7. Other than starting the series with two straight there is nothing out of the ordinary. If you can't win the Cup by playing 7 games in 14 days then you simply aren't the best team.

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Let's look at that the other way. If either Malkin or Crosby was injured like Datsyuk and the two headed monster of Datsyuk/Zetterberg got to play Pittsburgh with only one of their healthy stars, it would be too much as well, right? I doubt it even goes 7 if the roles were reversed
It probably would be, but let's give credit to the teams that actually won, not the ones who are supposedly entitled to a Cup. The Pens didn't have Malkin or Crosby in 2011 and took the Lightning to 7 games. Injuries happen, Crosby has missed time in 4 different seasons where he probably wins the Art Ross.

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Originally Posted by GMR View Post
Is it that hard to envision the league wanting a close series and not wanting to suspend a superstar player for big primetime TV games?

Nothing wild and outlandish about that.
That rule of "instigating a fight with 5 minutes left" and maybe getting a one game suspension is foolish to begin with. But it is a very grey area when it comes to suspending a player that way. I doubt they draw a line in the sand in the Cup finals with the Art Ross Trophy winner.

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Old
03-22-2017, 05:12 PM
  #55
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Didn't feel like they won that year. I still remember watching game 7 thinking that was one of the most underwhelming Cup wins ever, they were lucky to win that series I think. If Datsyuk was playing and Lidstrom was fully healthy Pittsburgh would have been done before game 7 IMO.

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03-22-2017, 06:47 PM
  #56
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Didn't feel like they won that year. I still remember watching game 7 thinking that was one of the most underwhelming Cup wins ever, they were lucky to win that series I think. If Datsyuk was playing and Lidstrom was fully healthy Pittsburgh would have been done before game 7 IMO.
Good thing these same Pens returned to outdo themselves in this respect. Their 16 Cup was even more unimpressive.

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03-22-2017, 06:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Good thing these same Pens returned to outdo themselves in this respect. Their 16 Cup was even more unimpressive.
They had a 16-8 W/L record, 3.04 GF/GP vs 2.29 GA/GP ratio
34.9 shots for vs 28 shot again

A dominant run imo, so much that the odd maker made them the favorite to beat the Sharks in the final, nothing lucky in that cup win.

And they had a good opposition too, with Washington & San Jose being 2 elites teams.

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03-22-2017, 09:41 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Good thing these same Pens returned to outdo themselves in this respect. Their 16 Cup was even more unimpressive.
I don't know about unimpressive. They obliterated their competition and were definitely the best team. It just wasn't very entertaining.

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03-23-2017, 04:24 AM
  #59
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Didn't feel like they won that year. I still remember watching game 7 thinking that was one of the most underwhelming Cup wins ever, they were lucky to win that series I think. If Datsyuk was playing and Lidstrom was fully healthy Pittsburgh would have been done before game 7 IMO.
crosby missed most of game 7 and the wings still couldn't win

i think a cup final that goes 7 games and the underdog wins after being down 2 - 0 in the series is anything but underwhelming

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03-23-2017, 04:27 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Good thing these same Pens returned to outdo themselves in this respect. Their 16 Cup was even more unimpressive.
what was so unimpressive about it? they looked just as good as any team of the last 10 years if you ask me, hot goaltending is the only thing that kept tampa and san jose in those series

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Old
03-23-2017, 01:51 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I do remember that. Crosby was THE face of the NHL then. He sold tickets. The NHL did plaster his face around a lot more than you may have expected. Call it marketing if you will. Over the top marketing perhaps, but still marketing. If you strapped all of the professional leagues in the world to a polygraph you would probably get some straight answers about what the leagues WANT but you would see it doesn't always come to fruition. You really think the NFL wanted to have the Ravens and 49ers in the Super Bowl a few years back? No, not preferably, but they did. Carolina and Edmonton in the Cup final in 2006? Huh? Yeah, even as a Canadian I know that was a terrible marketing match up. Pittsburgh vs. Detroit in back to back years was good for the game, so I can see the NHL exploiting that the best they can, but they can't fix the games.
More like the NHL and media told everyone Crosby was the face of the league instead of just letting it happen. He was one of several great players in the league and still is. Don't get me wrong, he's a great player but he's never separated himself from the pack consistently.

I don't think the NHL fixed any games but I think they wanted to give the Pens a little help because it would be quite embarrassing if "the face of the NHL" lost two finals in a row. He still only got 3 points in 6.5 games but at least they could get lots of pictures of him raising the Cup over his head. Pierre McQuire practically stalked him to get the interview right after the game as if he was the star of the series - this is why he missed most of the post game hand shake, too.

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Remember, the whole "they started with two days in a row thing" has been explained quite a bit by now. This was the NHL pandering to NBC not to get in the way of the debut of Conan on the Tonight Show. This is why it was Saturday and Sunday to start the series and that is the only reason. I just don't get how a Wings fan can still be upset about that though. They won the first two games and I wouldn't say they played particularly good in either of them either. But the point of the matter is the complaint is null and void once you realize the Wings actually benefitted from it by being up 2-0.
No, it hasn't been explained. You're just using the same lines the NHL used as if there was no other option for the schedule other than 3 in 4 days. You're right, the Red Wings did not look good in the first two games despite winning. Maybe that should tell you something? Did the short break and back to back games benefit the Red Wings or did they just use their experience to grind out those games? I know what I watched, and watched that team all year, and it was the latter in my opinion, and I thought it hurt the product on the ice as well.

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Because as fans we know everything? This isn't the NFL. You can say "upper body injury" and leave it at that. Also, let's not try and pretend players don't hide injuries during the postseason. It happens ALL of the time. You are trying to tell me that playing 4 playoff rounds where two of them go the distance that there weren't some Pens with some tender injuries that didn't make the papers? Come on.
You want to assume the Pens had more than just regular bumps and bruises from a playoff run even though no one reported it. The Red Wings injuries were well documented before the series even started because they were so numerous and severe. It was extremely obvious going into the series who was more on the mend because it wasn't even close. EVERYONE knew this. You're the same poster who tried to compare Gonchar's injury issues with Datsyuk's so I guess you'll keep trying to write them off as equal even if they were far from it.

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How long do you want them to wait and just how much preferential treatment did you want your team to have? Datsyuk didn't come back until Game 5, you want them waiting that long?

By the way, let's look at this "harsh" schedule:

May 30 - Game 1
May 31 - Game 2
June 2 - Game 3
June 4 - Game 4
June 6 - Game 5
June 9 - Game 6
June 12 - Game 7

There are 6 days in between Game 5 and 7. Other than starting the series with two straight there is nothing out of the ordinary. If you can't win the Cup by playing 7 games in 14 days then you simply aren't the best team.
Who said anything about preferential treatment of waiting for Datsyuk to come back? All I'd ask for is a regular schedule. What's funny is they actually had planned to start the series on June 5th originally until Bettman/NBC jumped in and rushed it instead. That would definitely be too long but what happened was definitely rushed too much early on. It did slow down later but the Pens seemed to have the edge by then and probably believed they could win because they were playing a team on the mend. Maybe it still happens with a regular schedule but we'll never know.

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It probably would be, but let's give credit to the teams that actually won, not the ones who are supposedly entitled to a Cup. The Pens didn't have Malkin or Crosby in 2011 and took the Lightning to 7 games. Injuries happen, Crosby has missed time in 4 different seasons where he probably wins the Art Ross.
I can give credit for what did happen but the proper context just needs to be added as well. Your claim that Malkin and Crosby and their 11 points combined in 13.5 games of play was "too much" for the Red Wings doesn't sound right when you state it without also mentioning that Detroit was without a healthy version of their superstar centre for the whole series. A healthy Datsyuk changes the whole complexion of that Detroit team in a series that was won by such a slim margin. It's hard not to laugh when you claim it was simply Crosby and Malkin being too much because they caught a big break with the Datsyuk injury and weren't even the ones who scored in game 7.

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03-23-2017, 02:13 PM
  #62
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Even though the Pens were down 2-0, they looked a lot better than the year before and it could have easily been 1-1 or even them up 2-0.

It was close enough between the two of them that a Pens win is not a surprise.

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03-23-2017, 02:29 PM
  #63
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The Pens were simply the better team & won. Wings fans like to whine about the schedule, but the truth is the Pens were simply better...

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03-23-2017, 02:32 PM
  #64
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The schedule wasn't what doomed the Wings IMO as they still won the first 2 games. I think the thing that still irks me is that 1) the refs didn't suspend Malkin for Game 3 after his blatantly suspend-able instigator in Game 2, and 2) the "two many men" non-call in Game 3. I don't believe there was a conspiracy, but I don't believe in refs selectively ignoring the rules in 'big game' circumstances, and who knows if the Wings would be won Game 3 if the refs had done what they were paid to do in these two situations.

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03-23-2017, 05:08 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by HowsUrBreath View Post
crosby missed most of game 7 and the wings still couldn't win

i think a cup final that goes 7 games and the underdog wins after being down 2 - 0 in the series is anything but underwhelming
Like I said Datsyuk was out the first 4 games, that's a huge loss. Lidstrom was playing hurt. The Wings played like complete crap in game 7 until the final 5 minutes, then it looked like they suddenly started trying. Probably fatigue and what not. For the record I'm far more of a Pens fan than I am a Wings fan and was rooting for them that year, but I remember them winning and it just didn't feel like the better team won. I stand by what I said, they were lucky to win that series.

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03-23-2017, 05:54 PM
  #66
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Absolutely.

Talk of a dynasty was in the air.
I said at the time it was all farce. Just did not see them as a team who could win multiple, they didn't play as well together as Chicago has, they didn't have the right GM or coach either. Its similar how people thought the Pens would own the early/mid 90s and only won two cups (against weak teams mind you).

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The "conspiracy talk" actually went all the way back to Game 6 in the '08 finals. Watch the last 2 minutes of that game again.

Detroit is up 3-1 and they call Hudler for a light hook of the hands on Staal. It really had no affect on the play because Staal's drop pass back to Malkin happened anyways, but okay, they're going to call it by the book for the rest of the game, right?

Nope. On the PP Malone chops Lilja's stick out of his hands, which probably should have been a penalty, but not only that, Sykora then pushes the stick further away making it more difficult for Lilja to get it back (definite penalty). Then Gonchar scores and it's 3-2. Then Datsyuk has a golden opportunity to seal the game with the empty net and he's tripped. No call, play on, and Hossa almost ties it in the dying seconds. Luckily the mockery in officiating didn't work and the Cup is awarded anyways.

Then the NHL makes a national commercial in the summer showing highlights of the finals and every clip shows only pro Penguin plays and goals. Weird stuff. Babcock mentioned this at one point, too.

But yeah, when the schedule was released there was a lot of talk about it because it was so strange and everyone knew the injury situation for Detroit was severe. The best defenseman and best two-way centre in the world both miss the end of the WCF and suddenly the finals is supposed to start with a 2 day break and then 3 games in 4 days? It was unheard of at the time and they haven't done it since. Looks too suspicious to not think about a conspiracy.
I can see why there would be a conspiracy. Get the star Canadian boy a cup young, so it sets up a potential dynasty.

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03-23-2017, 06:52 PM
  #67
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I mean, its not like the Wings didn't get their fair share of calls going their way over the years... I find it difficult to have much sympathy because three things didn't go exactly their way one time.

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03-23-2017, 07:49 PM
  #68
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The Pens were simply the better team & won. Wings fans like to whine about the schedule, but the truth is the Pens were simply better...
More like "healthier."

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03-23-2017, 07:55 PM
  #69
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what was so unimpressive about it? they looked just as good as any team of the last 10 years if you ask me, hot goaltending is the only thing that kept tampa and san jose in those series
Not at all. It was truly the triumph of mediocrity. They looked like a team of three second lines, and nobody even remotely gave a star performance. I don't mind Crosby's Conn Smythe but that's simply because he was as mediocre as the rest of them. This was weaker than 06 Hurricanes.

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03-23-2017, 08:57 PM
  #70
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Good grief, people. Still? We are still trying to have a pity-party for the 2009 Red Wings??

Sorry, no pity from me as an Oilers' fan. Remember when the Wings signed Hasek, Robitaille, and Hull in one off-season and then won the Stanley Cup? Now, why didn't the Oilers think of that...? Oh yeah, because from 1988 to 2004, the Oilers couldn't keep any of their good players or sign any good free-agents because their team was located in Edmonton and there wasn't revenue-sharing.

So, no. I'm not going to feel sorry for a veteran team of stars with home-ice advantage that had a 2 - 0 lead in the Finals and blew it (something only a Sedin-led team has managed since World War II).

The reason the Red Wings lost is that the Penguins were the better team.

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03-23-2017, 09:12 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Not at all. It was truly the triumph of mediocrity. They looked like a team of three second lines, and nobody even remotely gave a star performance. I don't mind Crosby's Conn Smythe but that's simply because he was as mediocre as the rest of them. This was weaker than 06 Hurricanes.
I'm not sure how relevant it is if someone gave a star performance or not, why even bring that up.

If the Pens were mediocre, how did they achieve to dominate their opposition so much ?

Why did the odds maker chose them as the favorite in the finals ? Because the Sharks were below mediocrity ?

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03-24-2017, 03:37 AM
  #72
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Not at all. It was truly the triumph of mediocrity. They looked like a team of three second lines, and nobody even remotely gave a star performance. I don't mind Crosby's Conn Smythe but that's simply because he was as mediocre as the rest of them. This was weaker than 06 Hurricanes.
it's called a team win

they would sweep your 2009 red wings, and beat your 2008 red wings in 6

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03-24-2017, 08:42 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by HowsUrBreath View Post
it's called a team win

they would sweep your 2009 red wings, and beat your 2008 red wings in 6
LOL. Sure thing.

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03-24-2017, 02:12 PM
  #74
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pens 2009 cup win - too much of a 2 man show, not enough of a team

pens 2016 cup win - too much of a team win, nobody stood out

the pens just get "lucky" no matter what, is that right?

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03-24-2017, 02:16 PM
  #75
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Join Date: Jun 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMR View Post
LOL. Sure thing.
does that really seem unrealistic?

the 2016 Pens were far better than the 08 and 09 Pens

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