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How did the Red Wings lose in 2009?

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Old
03-24-2017, 02:20 PM
  #76
Mike Farkas
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The Pens didn't get lucky in '09. The league conspired to ensure the Penguins won because they didn't want "Hockeytown"/the team the league has bent over backwards for for decades to win. Are you not following any of this...?

In '16, beating the Rangers, in part, with a sub-NHL goalie; beating the Presidents Trophy winners and the defending Wales Conference champ was an easy road...

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Old
03-25-2017, 05:43 AM
  #77
danincanada
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
The Pens didn't get lucky in '09. The league conspired to ensure the Penguins won because they didn't want "Hockeytown"/the team the league has bent over backwards for for decades to win. Are you not following any of this...?
You're going to have to provide at least something to back up this claim that the league bent over backwards for the Red Wings. They were a great team for a long time but did they get favours from the league like, say, Crosby does constantly? Spear Ryan O'Rellly in the sack? No problem. Chop part of Methot's finger off a couple days later? It's okay Sid, go try to score another goal. That guy is teflon. Same with Malkin really, who should have a list of suspensions for dirty plays. Star players have always got preferential treatment but these guys have taken it to the next level.

Meanwhile the league tried to make an example of 39 year old Lidstrom for not attending the all-star game. The guy paid his dues enough and attended enough all-star games that they didn't need to go there... but they did. For good measure they suspended Datsyuk for a game too even though he got hurt right before all-star weekend. In 2009 the league disrespected the Red Wings and had the Pens as their darlings, no question.

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03-25-2017, 08:47 AM
  #78
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Do we need to look much further than them re-arranging the format of an entire playoff series to placate the Red Wings in the 1994 WCQF...? I mean, for all the "this scheduling never happened before!" noise (fake news), you don't have to go far for that to actually be true for the other team...

I mean, you're citing routine slashes at this point...so I think you have successfully won more medals in this game of lunacy than any of us could hope to obtain...so, you're welcome to the last word if you want it and I sincerely hope you take it because it has been terrific ammunition to be used against your own fan base...

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03-25-2017, 09:33 AM
  #79
danincanada
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Do we need to look much further than them re-arranging the format of an entire playoff series to placate the Red Wings in the 1994 WCQF...? I mean, for all the "this scheduling never happened before!" noise (fake news), you don't have to go far for that to actually be true for the other team...

I mean, you're citing routine slashes at this point...so I think you have successfully won more medals in this game of lunacy than any of us could hope to obtain...so, you're welcome to the last word if you want it and I sincerely hope you take it because it has been terrific ammunition to be used against your own fan base...
That's all you have as a rebuttal? The '94 schedule where they got upset anyways? I don't remember why they changed the schedule but are you sure the Sharks didn't agree to it as well or was it done under protest? Either way, that's quite a reach and just shows how hard it is to find an example of the league favoring the Wings in the last 20+ years.

A routine slash that will have Methot sidelined for a while. Malkin is a repeat offender for hitting from behind and high hits. Has he ever even been fined?

I'll take the last word thanks, cause at least my posts have some substance. Not taliking about Mickey Redmond in a condescending way or trying to paint a whole fan base a certain way instead of taking on direct points from a single poster.

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03-26-2017, 05:04 PM
  #80
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The Pens were simply the better team & won. Wings fans like to whine about the schedule, but the truth is the Pens were simply better...
No they were not. Wings were missing the best two-way player in the world/top 3 center and their second best defenceman was still hurting.

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03-26-2017, 07:42 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
More like the NHL and media told everyone Crosby was the face of the league instead of just letting it happen. He was one of several great players in the league and still is. Don't get me wrong, he's a great player but he's never separated himself from the pack consistently.
It is quite clear to me, and should be to all of us by now, that Crosby is noticeably the best player in the NHL since 2005. No one has had a better career other than him. If this is 2009, then you have Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin who are all worthy of being called the best player in the NHL. Somewhere along the way injuries caught up with Malkin and he had a few more gaps than Crosby. Ovechkin and Crosby were pretty much side by side for the first 5 years in the NHL up until 2010. Don't act as if Ovechkin wasn't just as marketed and in as many commercials. If you knew Crosby, you knew Ovechkin as a casual fan. Malkin just has never been the type who seems comfortable in the spotlight. But since 2010 there is no doubt Crosby has stood on his own. He is now among the greatest players to ever play the game and even in his 12th season he still hasn't let go of his crown and passed it to McDavid quite yet. If that isn't impressive, then what is?

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I don't think the NHL fixed any games but I think they wanted to give the Pens a little help because it would be quite embarrassing if "the face of the NHL" lost two finals in a row. He still only got 3 points in 6.5 games but at least they could get lots of pictures of him raising the Cup over his head. Pierre McQuire practically stalked him to get the interview right after the game as if he was the star of the series - this is why he missed most of the post game hand shake, too.
Lebron James has lost more NBA finals than he has won. True story. Peyton Manning really has never played "great" in any of the Super Bowls he has played in and falters badly when you compare him to Tom Brady's playoff record. The face of the game wins the Cup for the reason being that he is usually the best player in the NHL and eventually these guys tend to win.

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No, it hasn't been explained. You're just using the same lines the NHL used as if there was no other option for the schedule other than 3 in 4 days. You're right, the Red Wings did not look good in the first two games despite winning. Maybe that should tell you something? Did the short break and back to back games benefit the Red Wings or did they just use their experience to grind out those games? I know what I watched, and watched that team all year, and it was the latter in my opinion, and I thought it hurt the product on the ice as well.
The 2009 Cup final was still very entertaining hockey. Crosby played better than any 3 point player over a series that I have ever seen. Really, it came down to a lot of times when Guerin couldn't finish one of his set ups. Alas, Crosby only had 3 points and it would have been talked about had they lost as a reason for them losing. But have you thought the Wings were just drained and maybe just didn't have it in them to win another one? This happened to the 1984 Isles as well. The Wings were facing a young and hungry team. It should have surprised no one that the Pens won.

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You want to assume the Pens had more than just regular bumps and bruises from a playoff run even though no one reported it. The Red Wings injuries were well documented before the series even started because they were so numerous and severe. It was extremely obvious going into the series who was more on the mend because it wasn't even close. EVERYONE knew this. You're the same poster who tried to compare Gonchar's injury issues with Datsyuk's so I guess you'll keep trying to write them off as equal even if they were far from it.
Gonchar did get a vicious knee on knee hit and did miss time in the playoffs. I won't sit here and make excuses, but there are LOTS of times players don't even disclose the injuries to the trainer, or that the team in general tries to keep a lid on it. Either way, Gonchar did not have the same numbers in the playoffs once he came back. He had 5 points the final 12 games when he came back. More so, just look at his game logs and the sudden drop in ice time. He's at 27-28 minutes a game and then he comes back and is more or less at 21-22 minutes. He shoots much less too. You are trying to tell me Gonchar was 100%? No, he wasn't. Still good enough out there, but let's not try to re-write things, the Pens had played a lot of playoff hockey then too.

But if that still isn't good enough for you, then why didn't the Wings come marching back in 2010 and win? Or 2011? Or since?

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Who said anything about preferential treatment of waiting for Datsyuk to come back? All I'd ask for is a regular schedule. What's funny is they actually had planned to start the series on June 5th originally until Bettman/NBC jumped in and rushed it instead. That would definitely be too long but what happened was definitely rushed too much early on. It did slow down later but the Pens seemed to have the edge by then and probably believed they could win because they were playing a team on the mend. Maybe it still happens with a regular schedule but we'll never know.
If the Hawks had stretched the series to even 6 games the series would have started the following week. I do remember that and I remember hoping the Wings would win in 5 because that was too long of a wait. It is how the schedule went, and unfortunately sometimes TV dictates it. Both teams had this disadvantage, but here is the kicker, only one team had to travel for Game 1, and it wasn't the Wings.


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I can give credit for what did happen but the proper context just needs to be added as well. Your claim that Malkin and Crosby and their 11 points combined in 13.5 games of play was "too much" for the Red Wings doesn't sound right when you state it without also mentioning that Detroit was without a healthy version of their superstar centre for the whole series. A healthy Datsyuk changes the whole complexion of that Detroit team in a series that was won by such a slim margin. It's hard not to laugh when you claim it was simply Crosby and Malkin being too much because they caught a big break with the Datsyuk injury and weren't even the ones who scored in game 7.
If Crosby is being contained and the Pens had a run of the mill 2nd line center then I bet he doesn't score 8 points that series. Malkin was not your average center. He was an Art Ross winner that year. He played the biggest role in the wins in Game 3 and 4. Crosby too was stellar in Game 4 with two points. They put their eggs in one basket containing the center they thought was the biggest threat but there was still one elite center left. Yeah, I think it was too much for them to handle.

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Originally Posted by Voight View Post
I can see why there would be a conspiracy. Get the star Canadian boy a cup young, so it sets up a potential dynasty.
I'll say the same thing I have said before. If the NHL has tried to conspire for the Pens to win the Cup, they are doing a BAD job! Unless we are led to believe that in 2010 the NHL execs wanted the Montreal Canadiens to beat probably the two most marketable teams at that time (Washington, Pittsburgh). So if the NHL is trying to give the Pens a break, they are very bad at it. Crosby was called for a little girlish penalty about 10 seconds into Game 7 vs. Montreal.

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No they were not. Wings were missing the best two-way player in the world/top 3 center and their second best defenceman was still hurting.
Mario Lemieux with a cast on his wrist after a vicious slash from Adam Graves says hi..................as he hoists the Cup after a sweep of Chicago in 1992.

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03-27-2017, 10:14 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
It is quite clear to me, and should be to all of us by now, that Crosby is noticeably the best player in the NHL since 2005. No one has had a better career other than him. If this is 2009, then you have Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin who are all worthy of being called the best player in the NHL. Somewhere along the way injuries caught up with Malkin and he had a few more gaps than Crosby. Ovechkin and Crosby were pretty much side by side for the first 5 years in the NHL up until 2010. Don't act as if Ovechkin wasn't just as marketed and in as many commercials. If you knew Crosby, you knew Ovechkin as a casual fan. Malkin just has never been the type who seems comfortable in the spotlight. But since 2010 there is no doubt Crosby has stood on his own. He is now among the greatest players to ever play the game and even in his 12th season he still hasn't let go of his crown and passed it to McDavid quite yet. If that isn't impressive, then what is?
You're simply agreeing with me, Crosby has not consistently been the best player in the world the last 12 years. He's been in the conversation but let's not pretend he's been like Gretzky and won 8 Hart's in a row. He's only won 2. There are a lot of great players in the league and some have been better than him from year to year. Overall, I can agree he's been the best player over the course of his career. Still, the league pushed too hard to make him "the face of the league" instead of just letting it happen.

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Lebron James has lost more NBA finals than he has won. True story. Peyton Manning really has never played "great" in any of the Super Bowls he has played in and falters badly when you compare him to Tom Brady's playoff record. The face of the game wins the Cup for the reason being that he is usually the best player in the NHL and eventually these guys tend to win.
That's all nice but if not for Max Talbot they probably don't win it in '09. Crosby did not lead the charge in the finals. He was outplayed again by Zetterberg and didn't produce.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
The 2009 Cup final was still very entertaining hockey. Crosby played better than any 3 point player over a series that I have ever seen. Really, it came down to a lot of times when Guerin couldn't finish one of his set ups. Alas, Crosby only had 3 points and it would have been talked about had they lost as a reason for them losing. But have you thought the Wings were just drained and maybe just didn't have it in them to win another one? This happened to the 1984 Isles as well. The Wings were facing a young and hungry team. It should have surprised no one that the Pens won.
Crosby was underwhelming in the finals. Blame it on Guerin if you want but Crosby only had 16 shots in the series himself. Again, Zetterberg outplayed him at even strength and killed penalties too (Crosby didn't). I don't think you'd make these excuses if it was Datsyuk being limited to 3 points in a 7 game series - in fact that happened against the Ducks when he was focused on and he still got 27 shots.

Yes, the Wings were drained like any team is these days while trying to repeat. They also had tons of injuries including a Hart nominee being out. They also had the league seemingly make it even tougher by starting the series with 3 games in 4 days after only 2 days off. Lots of "fortunate" things that helped the Pens and it was still decided by 1 goal in game 7. That's why I'll always believe it's back to back Cups if both teams were relatively healthy and a regular schedule would have helped as well. It's spilled milk now though.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Gonchar did get a vicious knee on knee hit and did miss time in the playoffs. I won't sit here and make excuses, but there are LOTS of times players don't even disclose the injuries to the trainer, or that the team in general tries to keep a lid on it. Either way, Gonchar did not have the same numbers in the playoffs once he came back. He had 5 points the final 12 games when he came back. More so, just look at his game logs and the sudden drop in ice time. He's at 27-28 minutes a game and then he comes back and is more or less at 21-22 minutes. He shoots much less too. You are trying to tell me Gonchar was 100%? No, he wasn't. Still good enough out there, but let's not try to re-write things, the Pens had played a lot of playoff hockey then too.
Rafalski had major issues with his back and missed 5 games around the same time Gonchar missed 2. Rafalski would retire early after two more seasons at least partially due to the back issues that started up in those playoffs. Stop trying to pretend the Pens had the injuries issues the Wings had because they simply didn't. Rafalski is one of the last names you'll about when discussing injured Red Wings because they had so many more prominent ones.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
But if that still isn't good enough for you, then why didn't the Wings come marching back in 2010 and win? Or 2011? Or since?
Are you being serious?

What did the Pens do the next two years? They were younger and hungrier, right (?), why couldn't they march back to more Cups? Why did it take until 2016?

Detroit went deep 3 years in a row, which teams rarely do anymore, and Lidstrom was getting up there in age so taking a step back was inevitable. They also lost Hossa that summer. After that they lost a lot of brain power in management, lost their coach, the core aged, and a rebuild is on the way. That still doesn't take anything away from that '09 team that pushed the Pens to the limit despite limping into the finals to a rushed schedule.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
If the Hawks had stretched the series to even 6 games the series would have started the following week. I do remember that and I remember hoping the Wings would win in 5 because that was too long of a wait. It is how the schedule went, and unfortunately sometimes TV dictates it. Both teams had this disadvantage, but here is the kicker, only one team had to travel for Game 1, and it wasn't the Wings.
Bettman had control over his league and had the ability to schedule something reasonable within the TV network schedules and arena availability. He didn't have to wait until June 5th and he didn't have to go 3 in 4 right away. Stop pretending it had to be this way.

Uh, did the Pens have to play out west and go 7 games with a team from California in the 2nd round? Travelling between Detroit and Pittsburgh is nothing in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
If Crosby is being contained and the Pens had a run of the mill 2nd line center then I bet he doesn't score 8 points that series. Malkin was not your average center. He was an Art Ross winner that year. He played the biggest role in the wins in Game 3 and 4. Crosby too was stellar in Game 4 with two points. They put their eggs in one basket containing the center they thought was the biggest threat but there was still one elite center left. Yeah, I think it was too much for them to handle.
Datsyuk wasn't a run of the mill centre either so it sure would have been nice to have him go head to head with Malkin.

Even with Malkin and Crosby it was actually Talbot and Staal who came through for them. If they just relied on Malkin and Crosby they would have lost.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Mario Lemieux with a cast on his wrist after a vicious slash from Adam Graves says hi..................as he hoists the Cup after a sweep of Chicago in 1992.
There are far more examples of great teams that didn't win with the major factor being injuries. It happens all the time and the Pens still winning in '92 doesn't disprove it.

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03-27-2017, 10:35 AM
  #83
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So the Red Wings lost because Crosby isn't Gretzky?

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03-27-2017, 10:39 AM
  #84
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I'll say the same thing I have said before. If the NHL has tried to conspire for the Pens to win the Cup, they are doing a BAD job! Unless we are led to believe that in 2010 the NHL execs wanted the Montreal Canadiens to beat probably the two most marketable teams at that time (Washington, Pittsburgh). So if the NHL is trying to give the Pens a break, they are very bad at it. Crosby was called for a little girlish penalty about 10 seconds into Game 7 vs. Montreal.
.
Of course, it was all part of the plan to grow the game in the 514 and in the 450!

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03-27-2017, 03:21 PM
  #85
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I think it was a combination of Lidstrom/Datsyuk being injured, Malkin playing on God-mode (Specially in games 3 and 4), and a bit of the usual playoff luck.

As a Wings fan, that loss really sucked because it was by one goal in game 7 on home ice, it also robbed Zetterberg from a second Conn Smythe, oh well, winning it the year before makes it a little less haunting. The one guy that must have felt the worst was Hossa, talk about crappy luck, same exact situation yet both times he was on the losing end, I'm glad he found good fortunes with the Hawks.

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03-27-2017, 03:43 PM
  #86
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Of course, it was all part of the plan to grow the game in the 514 and in the 450!
I thought it was a sadistic plan to split the fanbase in Halaks vs Prices people.

Hockey is a sport with a ton of non-calls and close call that could have been either way with referee that are influenced by the crowd, if you want to project bias toward a side or the others you brain will pretty much always succeed.

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03-28-2017, 10:17 AM
  #87
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I lived in Windsor until 2006. Used to listen to WDFN quite a bit. Every playoffs, there was always a number of guys who would call in and talk about the Wings were in tough tonight, because (insert ref's name here) was reffing, and "everybody knows (insert ref's name here) hates the wings.)" Which ref's name should be inserted? It didn't matter. All of them were against the Red Wings.

Reading this thread, I now know who those guys are.

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03-28-2017, 10:29 AM
  #88
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I lived in Windsor until 2006. Used to listen to WDFN quite a bit. Every playoffs, there was always a number of guys who would call in and talk about the Wings were in tough tonight, because (insert ref's name here) was reffing, and "everybody knows (insert ref's name here) hates the wings.)" Which ref's name should be inserted? It didn't matter. All of them were against the Red Wings.

Reading this thread, I now know who those guys are.
No you don't. I don't live in Detroit, have never phoned into a radio show, and I never complained about the refs or anything else prior to 2006 because there was nothing to complain about. Were there bad calls? Sure, but it typically went both ways and there was nothing glaring. The battles with the Avs were really fun and I never thought something funny was going on with the officiating or league. Never even occurred to me.

I saw lots of things to complain about after 2006 though as a Red Wings fan. The 2007 series against the Ducks was a complete gong show in officiating and the scheduling of the 2009 finals was a failure by the league, whether they knew what they were doing or not. Those are my beefs so don't paint all Red Wings fans with some broad brush. Every team has fans who complain. Trust me, I live in Toronto.

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03-28-2017, 02:11 PM
  #89
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does that really seem unrealistic?

the 2016 Pens were far better than the 08 and 09 Pens
Doesn't mean they are better than the 08 or 09 DRW

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03-28-2017, 07:50 PM
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As a Wings fan, that loss really sucked because it was by one goal in game 7 on home ice, it also robbed Zetterberg from a second Conn Smythe,...
I just wanted to say that your wording here is off. To be "robbed" implies something unfair or illegal happened. Zetterberg was not robbed. His team lost fair and square to another team that performed better in the best-of-seven series. Zetterberg simply did not win. He was not robbed.

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03-28-2017, 10:02 PM
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Doesn't mean they are better than the 08 or 09 DRW
i think it's a good indication they are when they are clearly better than a team that came within an inch of possibly taking the wings to game 7 in 2008, and a team that beat the wings in 7 in 2009

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03-29-2017, 12:56 AM
  #92
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You're simply agreeing with me, Crosby has not consistently been the best player in the world the last 12 years. He's been in the conversation but let's not pretend he's been like Gretzky and won 8 Hart's in a row. He's only won 2. There are a lot of great players in the league and some have been better than him from year to year. Overall, I can agree he's been the best player over the course of his career. Still, the league pushed too hard to make him "the face of the league" instead of just letting it happen.
Let's take a season by season approach dating back to his rookie season. Maybe he's a top 5 player that season, at best. But he took off after that. There isn't a single season since his rookie year that you can say someone was better than Crosby. I am talking about from a per game standpoint. Obviously with Crosby you have to use that for his injury riddled years. For example, was anyone better than him in 2011, 2012 or 2013? He missed enough time where he didn't get the hardware he would have but if you were to ask everyone who the best player in the NHL is they would have said Crosby. Perhaps in 2011 and 2012 he didn't have the best production due to missed time, but on a per game basis with the exception of Ovechkin riding alongside of him for a few years and the odd time Malkin was toe to toe with him there hasn't been a better player in the NHL year after year since 2005 than Crosby. That should really be no argument anymore.

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That's all nice but if not for Max Talbot they probably don't win it in '09. Crosby did not lead the charge in the finals. He was outplayed again by Zetterberg and didn't produce.
Come on, give me a break. Malkin and Crosby both score more points in a playoff year than anyone since 1993 (Malkin) and 1996 (Crosby) and the reason the Pens won the Cup is because of Max Talbot? Look, I like Talbot, they should have never let him go, but it is a bit like saying Mike Rupp is the reason New Jersey won in 2003 just because of him Game 7 performance.

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Crosby was underwhelming in the finals. Blame it on Guerin if you want but Crosby only had 16 shots in the series himself. Again, Zetterberg outplayed him at even strength and killed penalties too (Crosby didn't). I don't think you'd make these excuses if it was Datsyuk being limited to 3 points in a 7 game series - in fact that happened against the Ducks when he was focused on and he still got 27 shots.
He didn't produce like he should have but he still did play fairly well.

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Yes, the Wings were drained like any team is these days while trying to repeat. They also had tons of injuries including a Hart nominee being out. They also had the league seemingly make it even tougher by starting the series with 3 games in 4 days after only 2 days off. Lots of "fortunate" things that helped the Pens and it was still decided by 1 goal in game 7. That's why I'll always believe it's back to back Cups if both teams were relatively healthy and a regular schedule would have helped as well. It's spilled milk now though.
You are forgetting one thing. Pittsburgh as well played just as many playoff games in 2008 as Detroit and just as many in 2009. Both teams were drained and had very long springs back to back. You need to forget the schedule as well. The Wings won the first two games, the complaint for that became null and void once that happened. Let me ask you this, if after Game 2 I came to you and said we had to re-start the series and make Game 1 and 2 a couple days apart would you have taken that deal? No, you wouldn't have, you'd have taken the 2-0 series lead and ran with it. All the Wings had to do was NOT lose 4 out of the next 5 and they did.

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Rafalski had major issues with his back and missed 5 games around the same time Gonchar missed 2. Rafalski would retire early after two more seasons at least partially due to the back issues that started up in those playoffs. Stop trying to pretend the Pens had the injuries issues the Wings had because they simply didn't. Rafalski is one of the last names you'll about when discussing injured Red Wings because they had so many more prominent ones.
Oh boy not the injury thing again. Rafalski was not the game changer Gonchar was at this point. You can clearly see the numbers drop like a stone with Gonchar after he came back from that vicious knee check. The Pens have a hobbled #1 defenseman and as good as Letang played he still was not "the guy" on defense. Yet they still won. The Wings had injuries, more than normal, big whoop! Great teams overcome this.

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What did the Pens do the next two years? They were younger and hungrier, right (?), why couldn't they march back to more Cups? Why did it take until 2016?

Detroit went deep 3 years in a row, which teams rarely do anymore, and Lidstrom was getting up there in age so taking a step back was inevitable. They also lost Hossa that summer. After that they lost a lot of brain power in management, lost their coach, the core aged, and a rebuild is on the way. That still doesn't take anything away from that '09 team that pushed the Pens to the limit despite limping into the finals to a rushed schedule.
Let's face it, despite both being excellent teams neither of them had it in them to be a dynasty. It just didn't happen. The Pens had some strange moves after 2009 as well. It wasn't Sam Pollock running these teams let's just say.

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Bettman had control over his league and had the ability to schedule something reasonable within the TV network schedules and arena availability. He didn't have to wait until June 5th and he didn't have to go 3 in 4 right away. Stop pretending it had to be this way.
They bowed into the American network. I didn't care for it as a Canadian, but that is how they did it. Complain about how the NHL panders to Americans who often don't even tune into the games, not about how they fixed the series.

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There are far more examples of great teams that didn't win with the major factor being injuries. It happens all the time and the Pens still winning in '92 doesn't disprove it.
When did a team have a major injury that is the probable reason why they didn't win the Cup? Jean Ratelle in 1972 would have helped the Rangers against the Bruins for sure and you can put him on the same level as Datsyuk from 2009 if you want. I don't think a healthy Ratelle changes the result against the Orr/Espo Bruins though.

Can you personally name a team that would have won the Cup final if they were healthy? Possibly the Rocket changes things in 1955 if he isn't suspended.

Detroit lost Howe in 1950 but won, Boston lost Horton in 2011, Colorado lost Forsberg in 2001, Detroit was without Vladdy all year and still won again in 1998, Chicago had some bad luck with injuries on defense and won in 2015, Pittsburgh did the same in 2016. Both had their elite defender take charge. Pronger got suspended twice in 2007 and the Ducks never lost without him.

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03-29-2017, 06:09 AM
  #93
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i think it's a good indication they are when they are clearly better than a team that came within an inch of possibly taking the wings to game 7 in 2008, and a team that beat the wings in 7 in 2009
The 2008 Pens looked like the 2016 Sharks; lucky that it went six games. Being better than that team hardly moves them to the top. I think the 2008 Wings are up there as the best post-lockout SC winner, the 2016 Pens also have a case.

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03-29-2017, 06:15 AM
  #94
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If the injury card wants to be played, maybe we need to downgrade the 2008 Wings win as Malkin was playing injured in those finals.

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03-29-2017, 11:35 AM
  #95
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Let's take a season by season approach dating back to his rookie season. Maybe he's a top 5 player that season, at best. But he took off after that. There isn't a single season since his rookie year that you can say someone was better than Crosby. I am talking about from a per game standpoint. Obviously with Crosby you have to use that for his injury riddled years. For example, was anyone better than him in 2011, 2012 or 2013? He missed enough time where he didn't get the hardware he would have but if you were to ask everyone who the best player in the NHL is they would have said Crosby. Perhaps in 2011 and 2012 he didn't have the best production due to missed time, but on a per game basis with the exception of Ovechkin riding alongside of him for a few years and the odd time Malkin was toe to toe with him there hasn't been a better player in the NHL year after year since 2005 than Crosby. That should really be no argument anymore.
There were a few years after his rookie season where he was healthy and wasn't the best player over the course of the season. '08-09, '09-10, '14-15 at least. Give him full credit for partial seasons if you want but that's being rather generous. He's only got 2 Hart Trophies so you're simply being very generous overall with this view. Anyways, that's getting off topic.

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Come on, give me a break. Malkin and Crosby both score more points in a playoff year than anyone since 1993 (Malkin) and 1996 (Crosby) and the reason the Pens won the Cup is because of Max Talbot? Look, I like Talbot, they should have never let him go, but it is a bit like saying Mike Rupp is the reason New Jersey won in 2003 just because of him Game 7 performance.
That was in response to your claim that Malkin and Crosby were "too much" for the Red Wings. They combined for 1 assist in the last 3 games of the series and it was Talbot and the Staal line who actually supplied all of the offense in the last two games. Get it?

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Oh boy not the injury thing again. Rafalski was not the game changer Gonchar was at this point. You can clearly see the numbers drop like a stone with Gonchar after he came back from that vicious knee check. The Pens have a hobbled #1 defenseman and as good as Letang played he still was not "the guy" on defense. Yet they still won. The Wings had injuries, more than normal, big whoop! Great teams overcome this.
Rafalski had 59 points that season and was on the top pairing with Lidstrom. He was just as valuable as Gonchar was and missed 5 games instead of 2 in the second round. Those guys and their injury issues cancelled each other out.

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When did a team have a major injury that is the probable reason why they didn't win the Cup? Jean Ratelle in 1972 would have helped the Rangers against the Bruins for sure and you can put him on the same level as Datsyuk from 2009 if you want. I don't think a healthy Ratelle changes the result against the Orr/Espo Bruins though.

Can you personally name a team that would have won the Cup final if they were healthy? Possibly the Rocket changes things in 1955 if he isn't suspended.

Detroit lost Howe in 1950 but won, Boston lost Horton in 2011, Colorado lost Forsberg in 2001, Detroit was without Vladdy all year and still won again in 1998, Chicago had some bad luck with injuries on defense and won in 2015, Pittsburgh did the same in 2016. Both had their elite defender take charge. Pronger got suspended twice in 2007 and the Ducks never lost without him.
Now we circle back around to comparing Datsyuk with other single star players who missed big games or series. If it was just Datsyuk then that would have actually been so much better. But no, it was Lidstrom (testicle surgery), Ericsson (appendectomy), Hossa (torn rotator cuff and bad knee), Rafalski (back problems), Cleary (ligament issues in both legs), and Draper (groin) all either just recovering from surgury or dealing with pretty serious injury problems. Those issues weren't going to completely go away with more time between series, I get that, but the scheduling thing was just piling on to an already bad situation. It was ridiculous and there's no way around it. Playing 3 games in 4 days to start was only going to benefit the healthier team.

I've made my point multiple times now and you continue to try to downplay it with false equivalents. That's about all I have to say on that.

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03-29-2017, 01:00 PM
  #96
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I think part of the reason we hear it so much from Red Wings fans is with how consistent the team's regular season success was throughout 1994-2009. If something went wrong, the Detroit media tended to focus not on what the other team did right or what the Red Wings did wrong, but instead on who was hurt or which calls could have been made differently or which individual lost it for the whole team (Coffey, Joseph, Lilja, Lewis, Legace).

I think it was especially bad after the 1997 and 1998 championships. Winning became the norm, so any deviation from that was the result of something not normal. Nevermind that the Red Wings beat President's Trophy winners with injured star players in 1997 and 1998 - Chris Osgood is hurt, so 1999 has an asterisk. Classic Mitch Albom.

4 straight losses in 1999. 4 out-of 5 in 2000. 4 straight in 2001 and 2003. 4 out-of 5 in 2006, 2007, and 2009. It was a team that had trouble stopping the bleeding as soon as it started.

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03-29-2017, 04:56 PM
  #97
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If the injury card wants to be played, maybe we need to downgrade the 2008 Wings win as Malkin was playing injured in those finals.
Malkin didn't have a point until Game 5 in 2008. Crosby was the one carrying the weight, he did fine. I don't remember what Malkin had in the final, but he didn't play well. Yeah Pens fans can complain about that if they want I guess, or they can do what I prefer and just say they got beat in a 7 game series as a team by a better team.

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There were a few years after his rookie season where he was healthy and wasn't the best player over the course of the season. '08-09, '09-10, '14-15 at least. Give him full credit for partial seasons if you want but that's being rather generous. He's only got 2 Hart Trophies so you're simply being very generous overall with this view. Anyways, that's getting off topic.
He was right shoulder to shoulder with the best, every year, if he wasn't the best himself. Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin were the best players in 2009. Sedin, Crosby and Ovechkin in 2010. Really, what is there to choose from? Three points? Granted Gretzky would never be outpointed by Sedin in his prime but no one is saying Crosby is Gretzky, I am just saying there wouldn't be a GM in the NHL that would have taken Henrik Sedin in 2010 over Crosby. Just like no one takes Jamie Benn over Crosby in 2015. Winning the Art Ross over Crosby by three points is hardly something I would say makes you the best player in the game. Crosby was there every year.

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That was in response to your claim that Malkin and Crosby were "too much" for the Red Wings. They combined for 1 assist in the last 3 games of the series and it was Talbot and the Staal line who actually supplied all of the offense in the last two games. Get it?
Yeah, I get it. Fleury was truly the best player on either team in Game 6 or 7 so if anyone gets the credit for those games he should. Staal himself had three points in the final. Not bad, and the short handed goal in Game 4 was huge, but he himself had a single point in the final three games. Anyway you want to slice it, even if Malkn and Crosby weren't the heroes in Game 6 and 7 the point is the Pens are nowhere near the final without their heroics. 13 points in a series against Washington ring a bell? That was Sid. Then Malkin destroying Carolina singlehandedly.

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Rafalski had 59 points that season and was on the top pairing with Lidstrom. He was just as valuable as Gonchar was and missed 5 games instead of 2 in the second round. Those guys and their injury issues cancelled each other out.
Say what you want, it is still coming off as sour grapes. What is it you want, do you want an asterisk next to the 2009 Cup win because in your mind Detroit should have won and it was unfair?

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Now we circle back around to comparing Datsyuk with other single star players who missed big games or series. If it was just Datsyuk then that would have actually been so much better. But no, it was Lidstrom (testicle surgery), Ericsson (appendectomy), Hossa (torn rotator cuff and bad knee), Rafalski (back problems), Cleary (ligament issues in both legs), and Draper (groin) all either just recovering from surgury or dealing with pretty serious injury problems. Those issues weren't going to completely go away with more time between series, I get that, but the scheduling thing was just piling on to an already bad situation. It was ridiculous and there's no way around it. Playing 3 games in 4 days to start was only going to benefit the healthier team.
And yet it was the older and perhaps less hungry team that won the first two games and went up 2-0 in the series. No Wings fan in their right mind would have wanted a recount after those games. I am 100% sure you were happy with how things were playing out after Game 2. It is simply just revisionist history.

Take my word for it, sometimes 2009 Wings fans can sound like spoiled brats. I know, I have to listen to my own fan base practically claim victory in 1993 all based on a missed high stick.

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03-29-2017, 08:25 PM
  #98
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Injuries(especially after the Anaheim series) and Pittsburgh itself.

Any other team from the East makes the finals, Detroit repeats. I'm convinced of that despite it all.

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03-29-2017, 08:55 PM
  #99
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does that really seem unrealistic?

the 2016 Pens were far better than the 08 and 09 Pens
Now that's just looney. 08 and 09 Crosby, Malkin, and Letang are far better than the 16 versions. Fleury >> Murray. Sure, they had Kessel and Bonino, but that doesn't make up for the other deficiencies.

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03-29-2017, 09:57 PM
  #100
Mike Farkas
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There is absolutely zero case that 09 Letang was better than 16 Letang. And I mean zero. Let the record show, I have seen absolutely every single one of Kristopher Letang's shifts in the NHL - every one of them. '16 Letang is one of the league's best defensemen, '09 Letang not so much...

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