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Old
03-17-2017, 09:26 PM
  #51
Habs Icing
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What should stick out more would be the centerman line of all those teams. Goalies were good. Very good. But they weren't as game changing as the C's of those teams. Except Thomas of course. But even Boston had incredible performance for both Krejci and Bergeron.
Yeap, the centers were great. But if we could get a real second line centre man we would be in good shape.

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03-17-2017, 10:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by HabsGuru View Post
MB is a big dummy for not bringing in Vanek.
And a big puzzycat for not pulling the trigger on Duchene.

Top 6 could have been

Pacioretty-Duchene-Gallagher
Vanek-Galchenyuk-Radulov

Now thats a top 6 that could generate offense.
But no, MB likes 1 line teams.

Dis is not playstation, when i call de GM e hang up in my face. Theres no good center out dere. Trust me i look hard. Dey want my Sergachev. Im not gona sacrifice da future, i radder let da window close.
I guess you weren't here to see how Vanek was not performing with Habs last time around in the playoffs? That was enough to turn Bergevin off. He is good for regular season but come playoff time, he avoids any physicality. Why would he want to bring that back?

And I don't know why you put Duchene in the same roster as Galchenyuk. If certain reports are to be believed, part of Sakic's demands from Bergevin was Galchenyuk. So if Duchene is in Montreal, Galchenyuk is in Colorado. So your fantasy top-6 doesn't exist.

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03-17-2017, 10:47 PM
  #53
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Bergevin did good by bringing a legit top end coach. Now, he needs to fire himself so that Molson (by the way, what's with Geoff getting fat?) can hire a top end GM.

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Old
03-17-2017, 10:48 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by HabsGuru View Post
MB is a big dummy for not bringing in Vanek.
And a big puzzycat for not pulling the trigger on Duchene.

Top 6 could have been

Pacioretty-Duchene-Gallagher
Vanek-Galchenyuk-Radulov

Now thats a top 6 that could generate offense.
But no, MB likes 1 line teams.

Dis is not playstation, when i call de GM e hang up in my face. Theres no good center out dere. Trust me i look hard. Dey want my Sergachev. Im not gona sacrifice da future, i radder let da window close.
How about Sergachev+Galchenyuk + ? Yes, this is not PlayStation indeed...

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Old
03-17-2017, 11:16 PM
  #55
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No way Galchenyuk was in the asking price. Sakic's not stupid, he's aware we were trying to add not go lateral.
Sakic don't give two craps if Bergevin wants to add or go lateral. He's not doing the Habs any favors.

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03-17-2017, 11:18 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by HabsGuru View Post
MB is a big dummy for not bringing in Vanek.
And a big puzzycat for not pulling the trigger on Duchene.

Top 6 could have been

Pacioretty-Duchene-Gallagher
Vanek-Galchenyuk-Radulov

Now thats a top 6 that could generate offense.
But no, MB likes 1 line teams.

Dis is not playstation, when i call de GM e hang up in my face. Theres no good center out dere. Trust me i look hard. Dey want my Sergachev. Im not gona sacrifice da future, i radder let da window close.
Why are you mocking the French language?

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Old
03-17-2017, 11:31 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by HabsGuru View Post
No Galchenyuk, that's poor information.
That's information that's out there from the likes of Friedman and Kypreos. So it's not poor information.

Quote:
Vanek would be motivated to win a cup, probably his last chance at one. Last time around his mind was on Minnisota. Vanek > any LW we have not named Max.
For how cheap we could of got Vanek it was a big mistake not to add him. Vanek is a game breaker if he decides to be, put him on a line with Radulov and i bet it lights a fire under his ass.
You still don't get it. Bergevin tried Vanek and wasn't impressed with him the last time around. He was not interested in having him in his line-up so he can crap on him a second time. Fool me once and all.

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03-17-2017, 11:41 PM
  #58
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Those of you saying you heard Galchenyuk was part of the asking price are just playing into the hype others have created to justify MB's lack of balls to themselves.

Duchene for Sergachev, McCarron, Sherback, 2017 1st.
Please don't act like you know what Sakic wanted. Your offer might make sense to you, but Sakic could have easily told you he's not interested. And don't act like you know what Bergevin was willing to give up because you're okay with giving them up.

I trust Friedman and Kypreos' info more than your fantasy trade.


Last edited by Lshap: 03-18-2017 at 08:20 AM. Reason: qep
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Old
03-17-2017, 11:42 PM
  #59
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Those of you saying you heard Galchenyuk was part of the asking price are just playing into the hype others have created to justify MB's lack of balls to themselves.

Duchene for Sergachev, McCarron, Sherback, 2017 1st.
Would you trade Galchenyuk for Olli Juolevi, Brendan Gaunce, Hunter Shinkaruk and a late first round pick?


Last edited by Lshap: 03-18-2017 at 08:20 AM. Reason: qep
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Old
03-17-2017, 11:48 PM
  #60
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If i was rebuilding and i knew i was gona lose him then yes i would consider something like that.
He's not losing anything, Duchene is signed for two more years...

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03-17-2017, 11:50 PM
  #61
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Last time around Terrien didn't use Vanek properly in the playoffs. I wasn't greatly impressed with him either though, but... considering our LW situation, it was well worth giving Vanek a second chance with a new coach and a better team. Would have been a great gamble.
I think Paul Byron is doing great as LW. But considering the brand of hockey Julien has had success with in Boston, I don't think Vanek would fit even with the new coach. I'm not taking away Vanek's abilities here. I just understand why Bergevin didn't take a run on him because of his previous experience with him.

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Friedman and Kypreos are out to lunch.
I can also say you are as well with your fantasy trade for Duchene.

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Old
03-18-2017, 12:00 AM
  #62
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Ya and then he will lose him for nothing just like Stasny.
Well, that's his problems. But I'm sure he's asking for a good young established player in return + a top prospect and not just unproven prospects and draft picks.

He will look like a fool if BigMac becomes a 4th liner, Scherbak doesn't even make it and Sergachev doesn't reach his potential.

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Old
03-18-2017, 12:02 AM
  #63
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Ya and then he will lose him for nothing just like Stasny.
or not...like O'Reilly

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Old
03-18-2017, 12:11 AM
  #64
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Fantasy or not, there WAS a trade to be made for Duchene but MB is too scared to lose the future, in the mean time the window will be long closed before that future might pan out.
Well, I'd rather take my chance and make sure that if a current window closes, I'll have pieces in place to open one not long after. Though I will say I don't buy into this window business.

Look at the Rangers. They made the Cup Finals one year and then made the Eastern Finals the following year. They then lost in the 1st round last year. Everyone was talking about their closed window because they gave up a lot for Yandle and Eric Staal and St. Louis (prospects and high draft picks). And even though their "window was closed," they are one of the best teams in the league this year.

Quote:
Yes Byron is doing great, sure, but how will Byron play in the playoffs? We don't know... Our LW minus Max is small and unproven.
I think Byron's game will be fine for the playoffs. Like Gallagher, he's not afraid to get his nose dirty and isn't afraid of physicality. I think Byron will be better in the playoffs than Vanek would, personally. But we won't know until he plays in the playoffs. What I do know is that Vanek is not the playoff-type.

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03-18-2017, 12:15 AM
  #65
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Ok so Brainfart Beaulieu, Sergachev, Big Mac, Sherback, Hudon, 2017 1st. Is this better?
No it's not. Keep going, soon your offer will be:

Price, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Sergachev, Juulsen, McCarron, Scherbak, 2017 1st, 2018 1st, and 2019 2nd.

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03-18-2017, 01:11 AM
  #66
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I don't agree on this. We shouldn't just give up on this core. Price in his prime we can't just pack up and go. We have to take an honest run and go for it.

If it doesn't work, then we can deal away assets for picks and go the rebuild route down the road. It's not a waste to try to win with this core.
I think you need to look at it deeper though.

Price, yes, he's amazing. But as we know, that alone is not enough for us to win. So ya, just because he's in his prime doesn't mean anything in of itself.
So, what else do we have. Well, as of today, Patches, Weber, Radulov are also great additions to Price and you certainly have an argument to say if we can support those guys well, there's no reason we couldn't be contenders.
Yet, we aren't one really.

So what gives? Well, Galchenyuk has been circle jerked for years and we just don't know if he can cut it as a first line center. We have a whole in our 2nd spot as Plekanec is now unfit and Danault should be the 3rd line guy.
Gallagher seemed to have suffered wear and tear of his injuries, will he bounce back or not? I guess we will find out in the POs or next season.
On the defensive side, Markov, although still good, is turning 39 next year, so his effectiveness in a top role won't last much longer.

So, while the support cast isn't horrible, there are big issues there especially moving forward into following years.

Our prospects? Outside Sergachev, there's nothing really special there. Can't even point to a single top 6 potential prospect. It's sad. Maybe that will change as early as next season but as it stands, there isn't much of anything.

UFA, well, Radulov is a key piece. If he leaves like I assume he will, then we are left with some serious holes on the top 6. We would now be back to needing two top 6 players, and one top 2 center. That's just horrible. Not to mention, we might need a top 2-3 Dman again.
What about the upcoming open market? Could we get anybody there? Well, there's very very little interesting players there this year, Radulov is the best one and I think he'll be trying to hit the jackpot.

We're left with the option of trading, and going that route for established and signed (or restricted) players means you will give up more. We haven't really done any of these trades except for Weber, and that cost us Subban, which personally I view as a step down.


So ya, Price in his prime years with Patches and Weber, you definitely have something to work with, but can we get there while two of those guys are cheap? Or will our support cast keep crumbling down therefore making a push rather pointless?
Patches and Price will get big pay raises soon, will they be worth it? Will our support cast be good enough that it's even worth giving those guys extensions??
Or will we constantly be circling players around every few years, missing the boat by a bit everytime, like we've done ever so often?

To me, if we don't re-sign Radulov next year and can't replace him, we need to seriously consider moving Patches-Price-Weber while they are worth a ton.
Moving those guys doesn't mean getting 7 first round picks, you could get great roster players and near ready prospects for them. So it wouldn't necessarily be a tanking type rebuild. I mean, Weber got Nashville Subban.
So it's definitely something to consider.

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Old
03-18-2017, 01:47 AM
  #67
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I think you need to look at it deeper though.

Price, yes, he's amazing. But as we know, that alone is not enough for us to win. So ya, just because he's in his prime doesn't mean anything in of itself.
So, what else do we have. Well, as of today, Patches, Weber, Radulov are also great additions to Price and you certainly have an argument to say if we can support those guys well, there's no reason we couldn't be contenders.
Yet, we aren't one really.

So what gives? Well, Galchenyuk has been circle jerked for years and we just don't know if he can cut it as a first line center. We have a whole in our 2nd spot as Plekanec is now unfit and Danault should be the 3rd line guy.
Gallagher seemed to have suffered wear and tear of his injuries, will he bounce back or not? I guess we will find out in the POs or next season.
On the defensive side, Markov, although still good, is turning 39 next year, so his effectiveness in a top role won't last much longer.

So, while the support cast isn't horrible, there are big issues there especially moving forward into following years.

Our prospects? Outside Sergachev, there's nothing really special there. Can't even point to a single top 6 potential prospect. It's sad. Maybe that will change as early as next season but as it stands, there isn't much of anything.

UFA, well, Radulov is a key piece. If he leaves like I assume he will, then we are left with some serious holes on the top 6. We would now be back to needing two top 6 players, and one top 2 center. That's just horrible. Not to mention, we might need a top 2-3 Dman again.
What about the upcoming open market? Could we get anybody there? Well, there's very very little interesting players there this year, Radulov is the best one and I think he'll be trying to hit the jackpot.

We're left with the option of trading, and going that route for established and signed (or restricted) players means you will give up more. We haven't really done any of these trades except for Weber, and that cost us Subban, which personally I view as a step down.


So ya, Price in his prime years with Patches and Weber, you definitely have something to work with, but can we get there while two of those guys are cheap? Or will our support cast keep crumbling down therefore making a push rather pointless?
Patches and Price will get big pay raises soon, will they be worth it? Will our support cast be good enough that it's even worth giving those guys extensions??
Or will we constantly be circling players around every few years, missing the boat by a bit everytime, like we've done ever so often?

To me, if we don't re-sign Radulov next year and can't replace him, we need to seriously consider moving Patches-Price-Weber while they are worth a ton.
Moving those guys doesn't mean getting 7 first round picks, you could get great roster players and near ready prospects for them. So it wouldn't necessarily be a tanking type rebuild. I mean, Weber got Nashville Subban.

So it's definitely something to consider.
I'm pretty sure that Bergevin is not the guy I'd want making those deals. He has a very narrow conception of talent from what I've seen, and seems to value qualities more useful in bygone eras than in today's game. He got Nashville Subban for Weber.

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03-18-2017, 04:05 AM
  #68
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I'm pretty sure that Bergevin is not the guy I'd want making those deals. He has a very narrow conception of talent from what I've seen, and seems to value qualities more useful in bygone eras than in today's game. He got Nashville Subban for Weber.
I agree completely but that's another debate. Would definitely want him gone, no reason for him to get another crack at this when he failed with a core of Price, Subban, Patches, 3rd overall and good support players in Markov, Plek, Gally.

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03-18-2017, 06:18 AM
  #69
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I think you need to look at it deeper though.

Price, yes, he's amazing. But as we know, that alone is not enough for us to win. So ya, just because he's in his prime doesn't mean anything in of itself.
So, what else do we have. Well, as of today, Patches, Weber, Radulov are also great additions to Price and you certainly have an argument to say if we can support those guys well, there's no reason we couldn't be contenders.
Yet, we aren't one really.
Yes, I'm with you there. Price presence alone is not enough. And when I say "alone" is that by Bergie's fans standards, he can't force a deal out of anybody. Because we are either not deep enough, we don't have good enough prospects or we don't want to give what we have. So if the idea was to make a push for the Cup because we have Price, it means adding REAL talent. The day you come to the conclusion that you can't, is the day that you know that you have to start over. And hoping that the product you will get for your top guns, will be better than what you have in the longer run.

NOBODY has won a Cup with a guy who is still learning to be a C....another C who is aging and has NO IDEA how to put the puck in the net. Yep, teams that won Cups had very good performance by their goalies. But nobody had to SAVE their teams. Again, maybe with the exception of Thomas though their C's were stellar too. This team does not have the makings of a great playoff team. Regular season? Fine. People should try differentiating both seasons.

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03-18-2017, 07:25 AM
  #70
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Yes, I'm with you there. Price presence alone is not enough. And when I say "alone" is that by Bergie's fans standards, he can't force a deal out of anybody. Because we are either not deep enough, we don't have good enough prospects or we don't want to give what we have. So if the idea was to make a push for the Cup because we have Price, it means adding REAL talent. The day you come to the conclusion that you can't, is the day that you know that you have to start over. And hoping that the product you will get for your top guns, will be better than what you have in the longer run.

NOBODY has won a Cup with a guy who is still learning to be a C....another C who is aging and has NO IDEA how to put the puck in the net. Yep, teams that won Cups had very good performance by their goalies. But nobody had to SAVE their teams. Again, maybe with the exception of Thomas though their C's were stellar too. This team does not have the makings of a great playoff team. Regular season? Fine. People should try differentiating both seasons.
Boston was loaded at center that year. So no. Even in 93, the Habs had Damphousse.

You can't win without a star center and a good second line center. It just doesn't happen. Unless the wingers on the second line are elite such as Patrick Kane.

Kings had Kopitar and Carter down the middle.

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03-18-2017, 08:01 AM
  #71
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I think you need to look at it deeper though.

Price, yes, he's amazing. But as we know, that alone is not enough for us to win. So ya, just because he's in his prime doesn't mean anything in of itself.
So, what else do we have. Well, as of today, Patches, Weber, Radulov are also great additions to Price and you certainly have an argument to say if we can support those guys well, there's no reason we couldn't be contenders.
Yet, we aren't one really.

So what gives? Well, Galchenyuk has been circle jerked for years and we just don't know if he can cut it as a first line center. We have a whole in our 2nd spot as Plekanec is now unfit and Danault should be the 3rd line guy.
Gallagher seemed to have suffered wear and tear of his injuries, will he bounce back or not? I guess we will find out in the POs or next season.
On the defensive side, Markov, although still good, is turning 39 next year, so his effectiveness in a top role won't last much longer.

So, while the support cast isn't horrible, there are big issues there especially moving forward into following years.

Our prospects? Outside Sergachev, there's nothing really special there. Can't even point to a single top 6 potential prospect. It's sad. Maybe that will change as early as next season but as it stands, there isn't much of anything.

UFA, well, Radulov is a key piece. If he leaves like I assume he will, then we are left with some serious holes on the top 6. We would now be back to needing two top 6 players, and one top 2 center. That's just horrible. Not to mention, we might need a top 2-3 Dman again.
What about the upcoming open market? Could we get anybody there? Well, there's very very little interesting players there this year, Radulov is the best one and I think he'll be trying to hit the jackpot.

We're left with the option of trading, and going that route for established and signed (or restricted) players means you will give up more. We haven't really done any of these trades except for Weber, and that cost us Subban, which personally I view as a step down.


So ya, Price in his prime years with Patches and Weber, you definitely have something to work with, but can we get there while two of those guys are cheap? Or will our support cast keep crumbling down therefore making a push rather pointless?
Patches and Price will get big pay raises soon, will they be worth it? Will our support cast be good enough that it's even worth giving those guys extensions??
Or will we constantly be circling players around every few years, missing the boat by a bit everytime, like we've done ever so often?

To me, if we don't re-sign Radulov next year and can't replace him, we need to seriously consider moving Patches-Price-Weber while they are worth a ton.
Moving those guys doesn't mean getting 7 first round picks, you could get great roster players and near ready prospects for them. So it wouldn't necessarily be a tanking type rebuild. I mean, Weber got Nashville Subban.
So it's definitely something to consider.
Great post.

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03-18-2017, 08:06 AM
  #72
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I'm pretty sure that Bergevin is not the guy I'd want making those deals. He has a very narrow conception of talent from what I've seen, and seems to value qualities more useful in bygone eras than in today's game. He got Nashville Subban for Weber.
Agreed. When and if the time comes to use the current core for trade bait to kick off.a rebuild...MB is not the guy for that job.

Not a chance.


Last edited by PaulD: 03-18-2017 at 08:17 AM.
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03-18-2017, 08:26 AM
  #73
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Those of you saying you heard Galchenyuk was part of the asking price are just playing into the hype others have created to justify MB's lack of balls to themselves.

Duchene for Sergachev, McCarron, Sherback, 2017 1st.
There was no reason for Sakic to trade Duchene at the trade-deadline. There were about 12 teams interested in acquiring him last month. This off-season there will be 30. Makes much more sense to wait and field the best offers.

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03-18-2017, 08:54 AM
  #74
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I think you need to look at it deeper though.

Price, yes, he's amazing. But as we know, that alone is not enough for us to win. So ya, just because he's in his prime doesn't mean anything in of itself.
So, what else do we have. Well, as of today, Patches, Weber, Radulov are also great additions to Price and you certainly have an argument to say if we can support those guys well, there's no reason we couldn't be contenders.
Yet, we aren't one really.

So what gives? Well, Galchenyuk has been circle jerked for years and we just don't know if he can cut it as a first line center. We have a whole in our 2nd spot as Plekanec is now unfit and Danault should be the 3rd line guy.
Gallagher seemed to have suffered wear and tear of his injuries, will he bounce back or not? I guess we will find out in the POs or next season.
On the defensive side, Markov, although still good, is turning 39 next year, so his effectiveness in a top role won't last much longer.

So, while the support cast isn't horrible, there are big issues there especially moving forward into following years.

Our prospects? Outside Sergachev, there's nothing really special there. Can't even point to a single top 6 potential prospect. It's sad. Maybe that will change as early as next season but as it stands, there isn't much of anything.

UFA, well, Radulov is a key piece. If he leaves like I assume he will, then we are left with some serious holes on the top 6. We would now be back to needing two top 6 players, and one top 2 center. That's just horrible. Not to mention, we might need a top 2-3 Dman again.
What about the upcoming open market? Could we get anybody there? Well, there's very very little interesting players there this year, Radulov is the best one and I think he'll be trying to hit the jackpot.

We're left with the option of trading, and going that route for established and signed (or restricted) players means you will give up more. We haven't really done any of these trades except for Weber, and that cost us Subban, which personally I view as a step down.


So ya, Price in his prime years with Patches and Weber, you definitely have something to work with, but can we get there while two of those guys are cheap? Or will our support cast keep crumbling down therefore making a push rather pointless?
Patches and Price will get big pay raises soon, will they be worth it? Will our support cast be good enough that it's even worth giving those guys extensions??
Or will we constantly be circling players around every few years, missing the boat by a bit everytime, like we've done ever so often?

To me, if we don't re-sign Radulov next year and can't replace him, we need to seriously consider moving Patches-Price-Weber while they are worth a ton.
Moving those guys doesn't mean getting 7 first round picks, you could get great roster players and near ready prospects for them. So it wouldn't necessarily be a tanking type rebuild. I mean, Weber got Nashville Subban.
So it's definitely something to consider.
Fair analysis.

I agree:

- We can drop very quickly if Radulov isn't signed. Bergevin will need to juggle the books very carefully to keep him and re-sign upcoming contracts for existing core players. It's very do-able, assuming Pleks and/or Emelin are off the books. Teams usually keep their stars. Still... Bergevin has little wiggle room to screw this up.

- We're crippled with very few top prospects. The best teams have prospects stepping up, providing top-six production at bargain prices. Lehkonen isn't bad, but Habs have very little to show for the past few years. That's perhaps the single-biggest issue, IMO. Without top prospects we lack talent and, by extension, don't have the cap space to buy it externally. Our most recent picks have to step up or we're in big trouble.

Disagree:

- I don't see how we come out ahead by trading Price, at least not for another four/five years. No incoming player will benefit the team more than the elite goalie we already have, especially since goalies traditionally don't trade well. And as you said, trading for picks is not the way to go, especially since our recent drafting has been questionable at best. If four years from now the Habs are moving backwards with no prospects becoming part of the core, then okay, dangle Price and start over.

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03-18-2017, 08:56 AM
  #75
WeThreeKings
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It's obviously time for a good coach in the AHL.

You can argue day and night about whether or not you think coaches matter a whole lot to a players development, but that being said, justifiably there is nothing wrong with trying a new coach to see if you can get better results, since if it's negligible in your mind, then getting someone new shouldn't matter.

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