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Marc Bergevin - At Least We Got a New Coach Edition

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Old
03-18-2017, 08:59 AM
  #76
jaffy27
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Originally Posted by HabsGuru View Post
MB is a big dummy for not bringing in Vanek.
And a big puzzycat for not pulling the trigger on Duchene.

Top 6 could have been

Pacioretty-Duchene-Gallagher
Vanek-Galchenyuk-Radulov

Now thats a top 6 that could generate offense.
But no, MB likes 1 line teams.

Dis is not playstation, when i call de GM e hang up in my face. Theres no good center out dere. Trust me i look hard. Dey want my Sergachev. Im not gona sacrifice da future, i radder let da window close.
I think you should go to the Bell Centre and start talking to the people like this, I'm sure you'd be well and deservingly received......

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Originally Posted by HabsGuru View Post
Those of you saying you heard Galchenyuk was part of the asking price are just playing into the hype others have created to justify MB's lack of balls to themselves.

Duchene for Sergachev, McCarron, Sherback, 2017 1st.
Ahhhhh......the art of the armchair GM

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Originally Posted by HabsGuru View Post
Ok so Brainfart Beaulieu, Sergachev, Big Mac, Sherback, Hudon, 2017 1st. Is this better?
Oh look, he's changed his mind 2mins later.........

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:02 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Habs Icing View Post
Big Three? The only team that had a big three was the Habs of the 70s. Did the Pens have a big three on defence last year? They had it up front. The Hawks or Kings of the last 6 years? Or the Bruins.

If Julien removes Emelin from the picture the Habs have a defence that matches those previous cup winners.

What sticks out for me with those cup winning teams is they all had stellar goaltending.
The Pens had Dumoulin Letang and Cole who were the minute men on their team.
The Hawks had Keith Seabrook and Hjalmarrson before them.

So when I refer to our Big Three it isn't in reference to Habs of days gone by.

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03-18-2017, 11:53 AM
  #78
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Would you guys trade Price Weber Pacioretty and Sergachev for Duchene? No? Well, that's what Sakic was asking for. MB 1 > Haters 0. 5 more years.

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Old
03-18-2017, 12:15 PM
  #79
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The fact that MB tried trading for a guy whose declined more than Pleks, with another year and 5 Million left shows that the man needs to be fired. ASAP.

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03-18-2017, 12:50 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Rapala View Post
The Pens had Dumoulin Letang and Cole who were the minute men on their team.
The Hawks had Keith Seabrook and Hjalmarrson before them.

So when I refer to our Big Three it isn't in reference to Habs of days gone by.
Weber, Markov & Petry are comparable.

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Old
03-18-2017, 12:57 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Puck Luck Run Amok View Post
The fact that MB tried trading for a guy whose declined more than Pleks, with another year and 5 Million left shows that the man needs to be fired. ASAP.
Filppula is having a better season than the one before which proves that his 15-16 season was more an anomaly than anything. Also, odds are Plekanec and Filp would have been the main pieces of the deal...

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Old
03-18-2017, 01:08 PM
  #82
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I think you need to look at it deeper though.

Price, yes, he's amazing. But as we know, that alone is not enough for us to win. So ya, just because he's in his prime doesn't mean anything in of itself.
So, what else do we have. Well, as of today, Patches, Weber, Radulov are also great additions to Price and you certainly have an argument to say if we can support those guys well, there's no reason we couldn't be contenders.
Yet, we aren't one really.
I don't think we are either. But I also think that this lineup could actually win a cup as is. Do I expect it? No. Would it be the worst team to have won a cup? Also no.

I'm just saying there's enough here that we can build off that it doesn't make sense to start a rebuild now.
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So what gives? Well, Galchenyuk has been circle jerked for years and we just don't know if he can cut it as a first line center. We have a whole in our 2nd spot as Plekanec is now unfit and Danault should be the 3rd line guy.
Gallagher seemed to have suffered wear and tear of his injuries, will he bounce back or not? I guess we will find out in the POs or next season.
On the defensive side, Markov, although still good, is turning 39 next year, so his effectiveness in a top role won't last much longer.

So, while the support cast isn't horrible, there are big issues there especially moving forward into following years.
Glachenyuk will be fine and so should Gallagher. I'm not worried about either one. But Gallagher probably won't bounce back until next year.
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Our prospects? Outside Sergachev, there's nothing really special there. Can't even point to a single top 6 potential prospect. It's sad. Maybe that will change as early as next season but as it stands, there isn't much of anything.
Agreed. So trade some for some pieces.
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UFA, well, Radulov is a key piece. If he leaves like I assume he will, then we are left with some serious holes on the top 6. We would now be back to needing two top 6 players, and one top 2 center. That's just horrible. Not to mention, we might need a top 2-3 Dman again.
What about the upcoming open market? Could we get anybody there? Well, there's very very little interesting players there this year, Radulov is the best one and I think he'll be trying to hit the jackpot.

We're left with the option of trading, and going that route for established and signed (or restricted) players means you will give up more. We haven't really done any of these trades except for Weber, and that cost us Subban, which personally I view as a step down.
I don't see any reason why Radulov would leave. Seems to love it here.

If we lose him though, that's another big hole...
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So ya, Price in his prime years with Patches and Weber, you definitely have something to work with, but can we get there while two of those guys are cheap? Or will our support cast keep crumbling down therefore making a push rather pointless?
Patches and Price will get big pay raises soon, will they be worth it? Will our support cast be good enough that it's even worth giving those guys extensions??
Or will we constantly be circling players around every few years, missing the boat by a bit everytime, like we've done ever so often?

To me, if we don't re-sign Radulov next year and can't replace him, we need to seriously consider moving Patches-Price-Weber while they are worth a ton.
Moving those guys doesn't mean getting 7 first round picks, you could get great roster players and near ready prospects for them. So it wouldn't necessarily be a tanking type rebuild. I mean, Weber got Nashville Subban.
So it's definitely something to consider.
We have some elite talent in the lineup. That's enough to build around. Chuck has already shown he can be point per game. Price when he's on is the best player in the league and Max is in contention for the Richard. You don't throw all that away on a rebuild.

I'm all for rebuilding when it makes sense. But unlike previous years we actually have some elite talent here right now and I think it makes a whole lot more sense to try to make a run now. We can always give up and rebuild in a couple of years if it doesn't work out.

If we lose Radulov... man, that would be awful for us. I don't know what the hell we do then. We have to keep that guy.

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Old
03-18-2017, 01:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Would you guys trade Price Weber Pacioretty and Sergachev for Duchene? No? Well, that's what Sakic was asking for. MB 1 > Haters 0. 5 more years.
Yeah, sure. Price, Weber, Patches and Sergachev for Duchene. MB is such a genius for passing on that one.

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Old
03-18-2017, 02:36 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Fair analysis.

I agree:

- We can drop very quickly if Radulov isn't signed. Bergevin will need to juggle the books very carefully to keep him and re-sign upcoming contracts for existing core players. It's very do-able, assuming Pleks and/or Emelin are off the books. Teams usually keep their stars. Still... Bergevin has little wiggle room to screw this up.

- We're crippled with very few top prospects. The best teams have prospects stepping up, providing top-six production at bargain prices. Lehkonen isn't bad, but Habs have very little to show for the past few years. That's perhaps the single-biggest issue, IMO. Without top prospects we lack talent and, by extension, don't have the cap space to buy it externally. Our most recent picks have to step up or we're in big trouble.

Disagree:

- I don't see how we come out ahead by trading Price, at least not for another four/five years. No incoming player will benefit the team more than the elite goalie we already have, especially since goalies traditionally don't trade well. And as you said, trading for picks is not the way to go, especially since our recent drafting has been questionable at best. If four years from now the Habs are moving backwards with no prospects becoming part of the core, then okay, dangle Price and start over.
Good point. But points to the fact that in todays NHL.......if your brst player is your goalie? Well good luck against the contenders.

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Old
03-18-2017, 03:50 PM
  #85
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Good point. But points to the fact that in todays NHL.......if your brst player is your goalie? Well good luck against the contenders.
Your best player can be a winger, center, goalie or blueliner, it doesn't matter.

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Old
03-18-2017, 04:01 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
It's obviously time for a good coach in the AHL.

You can argue day and night about whether or not you think coaches matter a whole lot to a players development, but that being said, justifiably there is nothing wrong with trying a new coach to see if you can get better results, since if it's negligible in your mind, then getting someone new shouldn't matter.
That's my take.

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Old
03-18-2017, 04:36 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Your best player can be a winger, center, goalie or blueliner, it doesn't matter.
With the team's center depth, I don't even give them a puncher's chance against the Pittsburghs and Washingtons in the eastern conference. It is a wayyyyy more plausible that Murray or Holtby play as well as Price than Galchenyuk/Danault matching Crosby/Malkin or Backstrom/Kuznetsov.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:12 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Puck Luck Run Amok View Post
The fact that MB tried trading for a guy whose declined more than Pleks, with another year and 5 Million left shows that the man needs to be fired. ASAP.
So naturally, Toronto's GM should also be fired for the exact same attempt, and Philly's GM should be fired immediately for actually signing the player.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:16 PM
  #89
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Yes, I'm with you there. Price presence alone is not enough. And when I say "alone" is that by Bergie's fans standards, he can't force a deal out of anybody. Because we are either not deep enough, we don't have good enough prospects or we don't want to give what we have. So if the idea was to make a push for the Cup because we have Price, it means adding REAL talent. The day you come to the conclusion that you can't, is the day that you know that you have to start over. And hoping that the product you will get for your top guns, will be better than what you have in the longer run.

NOBODY has won a Cup with a guy who is still learning to be a C....another C who is aging and has NO IDEA how to put the puck in the net. Yep, teams that won Cups had very good performance by their goalies. But nobody had to SAVE their teams. Again, maybe with the exception of Thomas though their C's were stellar too. This team does not have the makings of a great playoff team. Regular season? Fine. People should try differentiating both seasons.
Yes this team is ready to crumble in the POs imo. I don't believe Weber is good enough to lead the back end forward, and Patches has failed time and time again at leading the forwards in the POs. So maybe this year, with Radulov, together they will do better. Certainly hope so, and with the way the NHL have reconstructed the PO format, we could potentially cruise through to the ECF.
That's why it's easy to get frustrated with the complacency of Bergevin to not bolster the top 6 a bit futher. Facing two of Ottawa-Boston-Toronto for the first two rounds, we should clearly be favorites no matter who we face. You could predict all three of those teams to not even make the POs before the season started.
I can't believe the Leafs, Bruins or Sens are going to go to the ECF. Surely, it will be us, and that will likely be the end of the road for us.

Then you look at the future and realize, we might not have this opportunity again in the following seasons, all the more reasons to go all in. Failed chance at a strong push.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:26 PM
  #90
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Team leads the league inncomebacks with 11 so far this year. No team it faces in the playoffs is going to have an easy time eleminating them.

And MB over the last 2 years added Byron Radu Danault Shaw and Lek to the lineup. Thats 2 top 6 and 3 solid top 9 players.

Byron about to score 20 goals at 1.1 million.

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03-18-2017, 11:40 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Team leads the league inncomebacks with 11 so far this year. No team it faces in the playoffs is going to have an easy time eleminating them.

And MB over the last 2 years added Byron Radu Danault Shaw and Lek to the lineup. Thats 2 top 6 and 3 solid top 9 players.

Byron about to score 20 goals at 1.1 million.
We haven't seen Byron or Radu or Danault in the playoffs. We have seen what Shaw can do but not for us. And Lehkonen had a great playoffs in SHL last year but we haven't seen him in the NHL.

But something tells me that all 5 of them are playoff-types. They're not afraid to get their nose dirty or go into the punishing areas. Can't wait to see what they offer us in the post-season.

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Old
03-18-2017, 11:41 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Fair analysis.

I agree:

- We can drop very quickly if Radulov isn't signed. Bergevin will need to juggle the books very carefully to keep him and re-sign upcoming contracts for existing core players. It's very do-able, assuming Pleks and/or Emelin are off the books. Teams usually keep their stars. Still... Bergevin has little wiggle room to screw this up.
Well, from what I just read on Radulov thread, he's apparently asking for an 8 year deal. Personally I think he's going to try to max out, why wouldn't he? For that to happen, he'll need to test free agency. He has no loyalty here. He signed a one year deal out of Russia, a few teams were interested in him even when there were question marks last season. Comes back, plays well, reestablishes himself as a strong player, no attitude issues, why wouldn't he go test the free market?
Because Montreal is oh-so-special? Ya, it's not the 70s anymore. We're one year shy of being a quarter century away from our last Cup win. Over that stretch, we only made it to the CF twice. Freaking lame.

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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
- We're crippled with very few top prospects. The best teams have prospects stepping up, providing top-six production at bargain prices. Lehkonen isn't bad, but Habs have very little to show for the past few years. That's perhaps the single-biggest issue, IMO. Without top prospects we lack talent and, by extension, don't have the cap space to buy it externally. Our most recent picks have to step up or we're in big trouble.
I think we already are in big trouble. Bergevin's main point of focus coming in was to build through the draft and development. It's a major failure that all he has to show for it really are Gallagher and Galchenyuk, two players who were ready to be NHL regulars from day 1 of his tenure.
5 years later and our best prospect is one that was picked last year and only because we had a 9th pick. Otherwise it's very lame.

I do not understand how he managed to get extended. Molson clearly is not knowledgeable enough to properly evaluate, or he simply doesn't care as he's still making money.

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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Disagree:

- I don't see how we come out ahead by trading Price, at least not for another four/five years. No incoming player will benefit the team more than the elite goalie we already have, especially since goalies traditionally don't trade well. And as you said, trading for picks is not the way to go, especially since our recent drafting has been questionable at best. If four years from now the Habs are moving backwards with no prospects becoming part of the core, then okay, dangle Price and start over.
Well it depends what the plan in mind is. If you're trying to move players to get more talent spread out, like say, move Weber+ for a weaker but still top 2D and a top 6 talent, well maybe you just move him. After that, maybe you package Patches for a top center.
So you end up with a top 2 D + top 6 winger + top center. You extend Radu.
Well, maybe you keep Price then, as the team could possibly be quite competitive.
If those guys don't get you anything worth a trade though and mostly feels like a lateral move at best (like Weber for Subban), well it's pointless.
In that case, then you see how you can improve your support cast. If there's not much you can do, well, only then do I think we should sell Patches-Weber-Price and start complete rebuild.
It's tough to say when there's no way for us to know about the market return of those guys, but it's definitely something to consider.
One thing for sure though, you can't wait 4 years. By then, Price might have dropped in efficiency turning 34, and he might come with a huge contract, so his market value is likely not to be the same as it is until the end of his current deal.

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03-18-2017, 11:44 PM
  #93
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We haven't seen Byron or Radu or Danault in the playoffs. We have seen what Shaw can do but not for us. And Lehkonen had a great playoffs in SHL last year but we haven't seen him in the NHL.

But something tells me that all 5 of them are playoff-types. They're not afraid to get their nose dirty or go into the punishing areas. Can't wait to see what they offer us in the post-season.
Dark horse pick ffor me is Byron. I think he is going to have a big playoffs.

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03-18-2017, 11:49 PM
  #94
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Team leads the league inncomebacks with 11 so far this year. No team it faces in the playoffs is going to have an easy time eleminating them.

And MB over the last 2 years added Byron Radu Danault Shaw and Lek to the lineup. Thats 2 top 6 and 3 solid top 9 players.

Byron about to score 20 goals at 1.1 million.
Radu is the only top 6 guy. Byron is having a career year, I'm not sold on him, he's a bottom six player, not a top 6 guy. David Clarksson already scored 30G, it doesn't mean much unless you do it repeatedly, and even then, Byron might not even crack the 40pt mark.
Shaw will hopefully do well in the POs. Danault and Lek are unknowns. Sure, you can be optimistic, but fact is you and I have no idea how they'll perform.
Our biggest asset this year going into the POs is Claude Julien imo.

So ya, it could go well and we should make it to ECF.

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03-18-2017, 11:54 PM
  #95
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Byron was killer in the playoffs back in the days when he played junior if that can be any indication of the future. Of course he had a pretty good partner but he was deadly.

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03-19-2017, 12:19 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't think we are either. But I also think that this lineup could actually win a cup as is. Do I expect it? No. Would it be the worst team to have won a cup? Also no.

I'm just saying there's enough here that we can build off that it doesn't make sense to start a rebuild now.
I would be very surprised if this team wins a cup. We will need our guys to step up big time. It's not impossible but teams who win usually have a couple of guys hovering around a ppg pace, if not more. That means we need a couple of our forwards to really step up.

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Glachenyuk will be fine and so should Gallagher. I'm not worried about either one. But Gallagher probably won't bounce back until next year.
Well Galchenyuk is already fine, the point is we need him to be more than just fine. We need him to be very good. We need him to be the leader up front and center, and to be that guy consistently.
Gallagher, he's a question mark whether you want to admit it or not. The wear and tear of his style has always been an issue. Just how long could this kid push his insane pace consistently? He is going to get injured, unavoidable given his style, so just how many times will he be able to bounce back from his injuries? Well, he certainly had issues with it this year. Will he change his style next year? Will he keep doing the same and get hurt again? Or will he already get permanent effects of his injuries? No way of knowing ahead of time, but they are questions that need answering.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Agreed. So trade some for some pieces.
We should have been doing that for a couple years already. Point is we might have missed the boat.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't see any reason why Radulov would leave. Seems to love it here.

If we lose him though, that's another big hole...
You and I both know ''seems to love it here'' means absolutely nothing.
He signed a one year deal, he has no history here really, no reason to be very loyal, no time to establish some serious bond with the city or some people. He is going to be, by far, the hottest free agent available. There is no doubt in my mind he's going to test the market, why wouldn't he?

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We have some elite talent in the lineup. That's enough to build around. Chuck has already shown he can be point per game. Price when he's on is the best player in the league and Max is in contention for the Richard. You don't throw all that away on a rebuild.
Chuck has never shown he could be a ppg over the course of a full season, and his PO performances are not impressive either. We will see this year, he definitely has the talent, hopefully Julien can guide him well.

Again, it's not about throwing talent away. Sure we have some. Every single team in the NHL has some talent. The point is ''do we have enough of it?''. If not, which is what I believe, then okay, can we adjust so that we do have enough of it?
Maybe. If we lose Radulov, I don't think that will be a possibility. I think we are going to play ''patching the holes'' again, as we've done so many times, and yup, you guessed it, fail.
Of course, this is also assuming that things stay relatively the same. If Galchenyuk blossoms in the POs, and carries that with him next year, as well as other unexpected players reaching new heights, well it changes everything.
But assuming Galch remains to be a 50-60 pt guy who struggles with consistency, that Gallagher tops out at about 40pts, that our youngsters keep being rather underwhelming, and we lose Radulov, well then it may actually be better for us to start a proper rebuild now instead of continuing down the endless path of good but not good enough.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm all for rebuilding when it makes sense. But unlike previous years we actually have some elite talent here right now and I think it makes a whole lot more sense to try to make a run now. We can always give up and rebuild in a couple of years if it doesn't work out.

If we lose Radulov... man, that would be awful for us. I don't know what the hell we do then. We have to keep that guy.
Sure, I agree, make a run now. Back in the Subban bridge thread, I always discussed how years 3-4-5 were the make or break it years. Still this year, Bergevin has yet to make a real push for the cup. Going into next season, we might have some serious holes. If that's the case, then you can forget the idea to make a run for it. That's my point.

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03-19-2017, 12:20 AM
  #97
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Byron was killer in the playoffs back in the days when he played junior if that can be any indication of the future. Of course he had a pretty good partner but he was deadly.
A lot of POs monsters in the Juniors, a lot of them also don't even make the NHL. It doesn't mean anything, but hopefully he'll be great.

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03-19-2017, 07:44 AM
  #98
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Old
03-19-2017, 08:00 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Well, from what I just read on Radulov thread, he's apparently asking for an 8 year deal. Personally I think he's going to try to max out, why wouldn't he? For that to happen, he'll need to test free agency. He has no loyalty here. He signed a one year deal out of Russia, a few teams were interested in him even when there were question marks last season. Comes back, plays well, reestablishes himself as a strong player, no attitude issues, why wouldn't he go test the free market?
Those reports have been for the most part discredited. He also said they were not true. Until he is caught lying I'll believe him.

It had been reported during the summer that Rads received offers with slightly longer term and even slightly higher salary. So why did he sign in Montreal?

Let's look at the player. He played in the Q and was loved. Saw that hockey even junior hockey means something in parts of Quebec.

He has seen the indifference in some NHL cities. He spent time in Nashville. At the time hockey was an after thought in that city. The energy here fuels him and also flatters his ego. And trust me he has a big ego.

Right now we have Markov, Emelin, Nestrov and Chucky who share ethnic backgrounds with him. It also looks like he is close to Shea and respects him. He has developed ties with some if not all his team mates.

He is used as one of the top dogs on this team. Again, fuels his ego.

He wants to win a cup.

If he leaves my guess is it would be to a hockey mad city that is a contender and needs a top six player and will use him as one. How many of those have the cap space?


Last edited by Habs Icing: 03-19-2017 at 08:09 AM.
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03-19-2017, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs Icing View Post
Those reports have been for the most part discredited. He also said they were not true. Until he is caught lying I'll believe him.

It had been reported during the summer that Rads received offers with slightly longer term and even slightly higher salary. So why did he sign in Montreal?

Let's look at the player. He played in the Q and was loved. Saw that hockey even junior hockey means something in parts of Quebec.

He has seen the indifference in some NHL cities. He spent time in Nashville. At the time hockey was an after thought in that city. The energy here fuels him and also flatters his ego. And trust me he has a big ego.

Right now we have Markov, Emelin, Nestrov and Chucky who share ethnic backgrounds with him. It also looks like he is close to Shea and respects him. He has developed ties with some if not all his team mates.

He is used as one of the top dogs on this team. Again, fuels his ego.

He wants to win a cup.

If he leaves my guess is it would be to a hockey mad city that is a contender and needs a top six player and will use him as one. How many of those have the cap space?
you know him personally ?

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