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Hawks OT goal - offside?

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:23 PM
  #26
karnige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piteus View Post
Panarin had complete control of the puck when his skates moved past the blueline. There's no issue. The refs confirmed the goal. End of story.
exactly. its just confusing because of where the puck was. still legal

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:25 PM
  #27
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Like I said I'm not even mad about it because the Leafs would have lost in the shootout anyways but I just don't get how this was such a quick review. Like it was so quick that they couldn't have actually given it a good look.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:25 PM
  #28
Territory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karnige View Post
exactly. its just confusing because of where the puck was. still legal
But he passed it and lost possession. So he was in the zone without possession before the puck crossed the line. That's the confusing part.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:26 PM
  #29
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Reading this:

However, a player actually controlling the puck who shall cross the
line ahead of the puck shall not be considered “off-side,” provided he
had possession and control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the
blue line.



It say that what matters was that he had control and possession of the puck prior to his skates crossing the blue line. That definitely was the case.

I don't see any language that says he had to control the puck until it completely crosses the front edge of the blue line. The only thing that happens when the puck crosses the front edge of the blue line is that the decision is made.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:26 PM
  #30
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Seems like an obvious offside to me

The rule states that the question of offside is irrelevant until the puck has completely crossed the leading edge of the blue line.

In the picture in the OP Panarin has already given up possession/control of the puck, and it's not yet crossed the leading edge of the line entirely.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:26 PM
  #31
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offside.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:27 PM
  #32
Keithsteeth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piteus View Post
Panarin had complete control of the puck when his skates moved past the blueline. There's no issue. The refs confirmed the goal. End of story.
That's exactly how I read the rule.... so yeah - pretty clearly onside

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:27 PM
  #33
Duke749
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Puck still has to be in the zone before Panarin passes it to make it legal.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:27 PM
  #34
Canada4Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
Reading this:

However, a player actually controlling the puck who shall cross the
line ahead of the puck shall not be considered “off-side,” provided he
had possession and control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the
blue line.



It say that what matters was that he had control and possession of the puck prior to his skates crossing the blue line. That definitely was the case.

I don't see any language that says he had to control the puck until it completely crosses the front edge of the blue line. The only thing that happens when the puck crosses the front edge of the blue line is that the decision is made.
Interesting.

So a player in theory could get into that position that Panarin was in, where he's in the zone controlling and possessing the puck while the puck is out of the zone. And then he can leave the puck, and freely cherry pick inside the zone while the puck is still outside, and when the puck comes into the zone he's not offside because he entered the zone ahead of the puck but he controlled it and had possession of it at the time.

That's a terribly written rule then. When the puck crosses the line should be the point in time that matters not when the player crosses the line.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:28 PM
  #35
Micklebot
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It comes down to how the NHL define possession, this comes from the interference rule, but likely gives us a hint of how they treat possession; you are still deemed in possession for a period of time after passing the puck, hence why you can check a guy a second after a pass.

Quote:
This comes from the interference rule, Possession of the Puck:
The last player to touch the puck, other than the
goalkeeper, shall be considered the player in
possession. The player deemed in possession of the
puck may be checked legally, provided the check is
rendered immediately following his loss of
possession

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:28 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
Reading this:

However, a player actually controlling the puck who shall cross the
line ahead of the puck shall not be considered “off-side,” provided he
had possession and control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the
blue line.



It say that what matters was that he had control and possession of the puck prior to his skates crossing the blue line. That definitely was the case.

I don't see any language that says he had to control the puck until it completely crosses the front edge of the blue line. The only thing that happens when the puck crosses the front edge of the blue line is that the decision is made.
So he can skate it in the zone pass it out of the zone but still be considered onside since he originally carried it in with possession?

Silliness.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:28 PM
  #37
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Totally offside. I think the league should take a look at this one and reverse that call.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:29 PM
  #38
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What an absolute ******** call. I love how confidently and quickly the refs came back with the verdict.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:30 PM
  #39
b in vancouver
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The way I understand it - that plays fine and is onside.
Both his skates cross the line while he has possession so he's allowed to pass it then without putting himself off-side. You don't see it much, and I admit it looks weird, but he can't retroactively put himself offside afterwards as it would still be considered possession.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:31 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada4Gold View Post
Interesting.

So a player in theory could get into that position that Panarin was in, where he's in the zone controlling and possessing the puck while the puck is out of the zone. And then he can leave the puck, and freely cherry pick inside the zone while the puck is still outside, and when the puck comes into the zone he's not offside because he entered the zone ahead of the puck but he controlled it and had possession of it at the time.

That's a terribly written rule then. When the puck crosses the line should be the point in time that matters not when the player crosses the line.
Well, he could freely cherry pick until somebody else got possession at which point he'd no longer be the player actually controlling the puck... so the puck would have to either come in on it's own, or the opposition would have to bring it in.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:31 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
It comes down to how the NHL define possession, but likely gives us a hint of how they treat possession; you are still deemed in possession for a period of time after passing the puck, hence why you can check a guy a second after a pass.
This seems like the correct interpretation. split second after he released pass its over the line

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:32 PM
  #42
Canada4Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
It comes down to how the NHL define possession, but likely gives us a hint of how they treat possession; you are still deemed in possession for a period of time after passing the puck, hence why you can check a guy a second after a pass.
Quote:
This comes from the interference rule, Possession of the Puck:
The last player to touch the puck, other than the
goalkeeper, shall be considered the player in
possession. The player deemed in possession of the
puck may be checked legally, provided the check is
rendered immediately following his loss of
possession
The bolded is a total oxy-moron. They consider the guy who last touched it to be in possesion of the puck yet say he can be checked for about a second following his loss of possession despite the fact that 2 lines earlier they just said they still consider him to be in possession of the puck at that time.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:33 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b in vancouver View Post
The way I understand it - that plays fine and is onside.
Both his skates cross the line while he has possession so he's allowed to pass it then without putting himself off-side. You don't see it much, and I admit it looks weird, but he can't retroactively put himself offside afterwards.
No the question is whether he releases possession of the puck while it is outside of the zone and puts himself offside.

Need a better frame-by-frame tbh. Not enough frames

It's a super close call either way

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:34 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
Well, he could freely cherry pick until somebody else got possession at which point he'd no longer be the player actually controlling the puck... so the puck would have to either come in on it's own, or the opposition would have to bring it in.
So under this interpretation, theoretically he could do what he did, but instead of passing it forward into the zone take a slap shot back to his end, have the puck ring all the way around the boards in he Hawks end, up the boards in the neutral zone, and then pick it up behind the net in the Leafs zone and he'd be onside becuase he controlled the puck when he crossed the line and he was the one who caused the puck to enter the zone.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:34 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
Well, he could freely cherry pick until somebody else got possession at which point he'd no longer be the player actually controlling the puck... so the puck would have to either come in on it's own, or the opposition would have to bring it in.
yeah but according to the explanation I just got it no longer matters if he's in possession of the puck or not. The point in time that matters was when his skates crossed the line I was just told. As long as he's in possession and control of the puck as his skates cross the line he's good according to that written rule apparently.

The point that should matter is when the puck crosses the line. At which point everything you just said makes total sense, but that's not the way that rule appears to be written. It references the point at which is skates cross the line.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:34 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Kamal007 View Post
What an absolute ******** call. I love how confidently and quickly the refs came back with the verdict.
Did it ever cross your mind that the reason the refs took only 10 seconds to review the play and confirm good goal was because they actually know the rules and it was obvious that it was not offside?

HF expertise in full know it all mode on this one.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:35 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada4Gold View Post
Interesting.

So a player in theory could get into that position that Panarin was in, where he's in the zone controlling and possessing the puck while the puck is out of the zone. And then he can leave the puck, and freely cherry pick inside the zone while the puck is still outside, and when the puck comes into the zone he's not offside because he entered the zone ahead of the puck but he controlled it and had possession of it at the time.

That's a terribly written rule then. When the puck crosses the line should be the point in time that matters not when the player crosses the line.

That's a good question - what happens if someone else on his team outside the zone touches the puck outside of the zone after he enters?

I do think the rule seems kind of strangely written

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:36 PM
  #48
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All I'm seeing from these interpretations of the rule is an even bigger grey area surrounding the call.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:37 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada4Gold View Post
The bolded is a total oxy-moron. They consider the guy who last touched it to be in possesion of the puck yet say he can be checked for about a second following his loss of possession despite the fact that 2 lines earlier they just said they still consider him to be in possession of the puck at that time.
What they are saying is he is 'deemed' in possession despite not physically being in possession. So you pass the puck, somebody else receives it (there for somebody else is the factual in possession player) but you are still deemed in possession in the application of the interference rule.

The idea is there is a level of persistance in your 'deemed' possession after the point at which you factually no longer have possession.

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Old
03-18-2017, 09:37 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyedea View Post
All I'm seeing from these interpretations off the rule is an even bigger grey area surrounding the call.
No - I think that he was clearly onside according to how the rule is written.


However, I do think the questions about the rule in general are good ones. It does seem to be a strangely written rule that could result in some weird scenarios.

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