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Hawks OT goal - offside?

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Old
03-19-2017, 03:58 PM
  #526
SAADfather
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I have no clue how this thread is still going. It was onside based on how the rule is written. If you wanna argue that rule - thats completely fair but thats a different thread...

Agree with Hire Sather though. Offsides review has been a colossal failure and has caused more problems than it's solved. Needs to go away ASAP.

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03-19-2017, 04:11 PM
  #527
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The GM meeting in Boca Raton proved useless as they deemed the rule was fine as is

after last night there has to be some changes, i want someone to be fired

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03-19-2017, 04:12 PM
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAADfather View Post
I have no clue how this thread is still going. It was onside based on how the rule is written.
People misreading or incompletely reading the rule and then making statements like this is the reason this thread is still ongoing.

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Old
03-19-2017, 04:19 PM
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens of Anarchy View Post
Leaf fans think its offside. League , after review, thinks its not.

Goal counts. Lights out flood the rink.
I think a lot of people think it's offside, from a variety of teams fanbases. And some, like myself, are just seeking clarity as it is a bit of a confusing situation.

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03-19-2017, 04:20 PM
  #530
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The rule is clear. If you don't understand why it's an onside play after reading the rule you honestly are failing a middle/high school level reading comprehension exercise.


If you think that play SHOULD offside that's fine.... but the rule would have to be changed.

As I've said numerous times in the thread, I do think they should add a line to the rule that says the puck carrier not only has to control/possess the puck prior to his skates entering the zone, but that he also must be the LAST player to control/possess the puck before it (the puck) enters the zone. That would have no bearing on the play last night, but it would add clarification for other scenarios


Last edited by Keithsteeth: 03-19-2017 at 04:26 PM.
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Old
03-19-2017, 04:23 PM
  #531
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The wording of the rule is quite poor.

A play like that should not be considered onside...

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03-19-2017, 04:28 PM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
The rule is clear. If you don't understand why it's an onside play after reading the rule you honestly are failing a middle/high school level reading comprehension exercise.

Well, at least you're being polite about it....

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03-19-2017, 05:14 PM
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens of Anarchy View Post
Leaf fans think its offside. League , after review, thinks its not.

Goal counts. Lights out flood the rink.
**** like that gets called offside everyday. Sorry.

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Old
03-19-2017, 06:27 PM
  #534
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Interesting read to hear how both sides argue their case. While it appears many agree the rule could be written better, either side believes it should be blatantly obvious their position is the correct one.

I think the side you choose depends on your definition of possession at time of entry, whether it be the skate or puck.

My position is that common sense would say that goal should've have counted, but my interpretation of the rule would lean toward offside. As I understand it, the entire puck and not simply a portion of the puck has to pass into the blue line. Additionally, we understand the wording was put in place where someone skating backwards in possession of puck couldn't put himself offside.

Scenario A:
A1) Player on offense is skating backwards and skates into offensive zone, puck under his control but say 3 feet from blue line.
A2) Shovels a 5 foot pass to a streaking teammate, that even with forward progression of said puck, falls short one foot short of the blue line, when teammate gets possession of puck.

Above would be obvious offside right?

Scenario B:
B1) Player on offense is skating backwards and skates into offensive zone, puck under his control but say 3 feet from blue line.
B2) Shovels a 5 foot pass to a streaking teammate, that with forward progression of said puck enter past blue line, when teammate gets possession of puck

So what would the answer to scenario B, onside or offside?
He released the puck 3 feet from the blue line, but teammate didn't touch the puck until it had passed the blue line. Where was the change in possession, on the release or when teammate touched it?

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Old
03-19-2017, 06:30 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by genk View Post
The puck needs to completely cross the blue line and enter the white surface area of the offensive zone and not just cross the edge of the blue line touching the neutral zone before the player's skates enter the offensive zone. He quite, 100% clearly passed the puck well before the "leading edge" of the blue (terminology courtesy of NHL rule book).
Nope.

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03-19-2017, 06:52 PM
  #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
The rule is clear. If you don't understand why it's an onside play after reading the rule you honestly are failing a middle/high school level reading comprehension exercise.


Once again, the irony is strong.

Okay, I really think the only way to get through to certain people arguing this side of the argument is to take up your stance. From now on, I agree with you. When Panarin crosses the blueline with his skates while controlling the puck, he is immediately ruled onside, and nothing that happens after that point can affect that. Fantastic.

I'm looking forward to the same play entry happening, except one where he drops it back to a teammate instead of passing laterally, and goes deep into the zone to await a pass. Given he'd entered the zone onside already, nothing in the rules can make him offside from that point on. So he sneaks in front of the net, his teammates pass it about in the neutral zone for a bit and then fire it into the zone to the awaiting Panarin for a one-on-one with the goalie. It really is a tremendous strategy.


... of course, in order for this to be the case, and for our now-agreed-upon understanding of the actual play to be the case, I have to ignore an important part of the rule about evaluating the situation only when the puck crosses the line, and not the skates, but sacrifices have to be made if I want to agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftwin View Post
Nope.
I'm sorry, what? This is the hill you want to die on? You're going to argue that it's unclear whether he'd passed the puck yet?

I mean, you might as well try to argue that he might have had both skates in the neutral zone when the puck crossed the line.

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Old
03-19-2017, 08:20 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anglesmith View Post


Once again, the irony is strong.

Okay, I really think the only way to get through to certain people arguing this side of the argument is to take up your stance. From now on, I agree with you. When Panarin crosses the blueline with his skates while controlling the puck, he is immediately ruled onside, and nothing that happens after that point can affect that. Fantastic.

I'm looking forward to the same play entry happening, except one where he drops it back to a teammate instead of passing laterally, and goes deep into the zone to await a pass. Given he'd entered the zone onside already, nothing in the rules can make him offside from that point on. So he sneaks in front of the net, his teammates pass it about in the neutral zone for a bit and then fire it into the zone to the awaiting Panarin for a one-on-one with the goalie. It really is a tremendous strategy.


... of course, in order for this to be the case, and for our now-agreed-upon understanding of the actual play to be the case, I have to ignore an important part of the rule about evaluating the situation only when the puck crosses the line, and not the skates, but sacrifices have to be made if I want to agree with you.



I'm sorry, what? This is the hill you want to die on? You're going to argue that it's unclear whether he'd passed the puck yet?

I mean, you might as well try to argue that he might have had both skates in the neutral zone when the puck crossed the line.
You're ignoring the basic fact that once the puck crosses the blue line heading back out of the zone, the Hawks are now in a delayed offside position.

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Old
03-19-2017, 08:24 PM
  #538
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Terrible call. Hawks had possession outside the zone and entered with a player in the zone ahead of the puck. It is that simple.

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Old
03-19-2017, 08:31 PM
  #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anglesmith View Post



I'm looking forward to the same play entry happening, except one where he drops it back to a teammate instead of passing laterally, and goes deep into the zone to await a pass. Given he'd entered the zone onside already, nothing in the rules can make him offside from that point on. So he sneaks in front of the net, his teammates pass it about in the neutral zone for a bit and then fire it into the zone to the awaiting Panarin for a one-on-one with the goalie. It really is a tremendous strategy.


... of course, in order for this to be the case, and for our now-agreed-upon understanding of the actual play to be the case, I have to ignore an important part of the rule about evaluating the situation only when the puck crosses the line, and not the skates, but sacrifices have to be made if I want to agree with you.
No, you don't have to ignore that part of the rule. It's exactly that part of the rule that doesn't let these cherry picking situations, that people keep bringing up, occur. The offside decision isn't made until the puck crosses the line. In these cherry picking scenarios he drops the puck back and thus is not declared offside or onside as the puck hasn't crossed the line. If and when the puck later crosses the line a decision will be made that he was already in the zone and offside.

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Old
03-19-2017, 08:45 PM
  #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IME View Post
You're ignoring the basic fact that once the puck crosses the blue line heading back out of the zone, the Hawks are now in a delayed offside position.
But the rule doesn't explicitly state that, which means if you think that, you must have poor reading comprehension





/s

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Old
03-19-2017, 08:56 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by Territory View Post
What I don't get is why they reviewed it so fast.
The real problem here, and I have said this before, is that the referees are reviewing their own decisions. We don't let students grade their own papers, why do we let referees review their own decisions?

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Old
03-19-2017, 09:00 PM
  #542
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The real problem here, and I have said this before, is that the referees are reviewing their own decisions. We don't let students grade their own papers, why do we let referees review their own decisions?
I don't think the refs actually reviewed the play. Right after the goal was scored the horn went off meaning it was the NHL who wanted it reviewed.

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Old
03-19-2017, 10:14 PM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IME View Post
You're ignoring the basic fact that once the puck crosses the blue line heading back out of the zone, the Hawks are now in a delayed offside position.
Why would the puck cross the blue line heading back out of the zone? Panarin passes it from the neutral zone. His skates have entered the zone while he controls the puck, but the puck has not yet entered before his pass, just like in the real situation. People have been telling me that Panarin gets ruled onside the moment his skates enter the zone while he controls the puck, and he cannot then be made offside by giving up control of the puck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swerdnase View Post
No, you don't have to ignore that part of the rule. It's exactly that part of the rule that doesn't let these cherry picking situations, that people keep bringing up, occur. The offside decision isn't made until the puck crosses the line. In these cherry picking scenarios he drops the puck back and thus is not declared offside or onside as the puck hasn't crossed the line. If and when the puck later crosses the line a decision will be made that he was already in the zone and offside.
Exactly! The decision is made based on what the situation is at the moment the puck crosses the line. And at that moment, Panarin is not in control of the puck, and has entered the zone ahead of the puck. Glad we finally got there.

What I don't understand is why people are so adept at applying the rule to that situation, but suddenly throw aside that same logic on the real situation. At the moment the puck crosses the line, it is in between players. It is not being controlled by anyone, and thus there is no clause there to make any player who is inside the zone onside.

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Old
03-19-2017, 10:24 PM
  #544
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The Hawks play again next Tuesday. I say we save some time and start the disputed offside goal thread right now

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Old
03-19-2017, 10:48 PM
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anglesmith View Post
Why would the puck cross the blue line heading back out of the zone? Panarin passes it from the neutral zone. His skates have entered the zone while he controls the puck, but the puck has not yet entered before his pass, just like in the real situation. People have been telling me that Panarin gets ruled onside the moment his skates enter the zone while he controls the puck, and he cannot then be made offside by giving up control of the puck.
In the real play Panarin passed the puck forward, keeping the play onside. Had he passed the puck backwards towards the neutral zone, then he is a player who was onside, but now creating a delayed offside because he doesn't have control of the puck and the puck is not in the zone.

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Old
03-19-2017, 11:02 PM
  #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IME View Post
In the real play Panarin passed the puck forward, keeping the play onside. Had he passed the puck backwards towards the neutral zone, then he is a player who was onside, but now creating a delayed offside because he doesn't have control of the puck and the puck is not in the zone.
Where in the rules is this distinction? According to the interpretation popular in this thread, the important point is that Panarin crossed the line with possession of the puck, thus making him onside. That still holds true in this case. The moment you are mentioning where Panarin doesn't have control of the puck and the puck is not in the zone also exists in the actual play - the moment the picture in the OP is taken comes from this moment.

So the only difference between the two situations is Panarin passing the puck forward over the line or backwards to a teammate. Unless there is something in the rule book to differentiate the treatment of the two plays based on that one distinction, you would be obligated to call these two plays the same.

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Old
03-20-2017, 07:11 PM
  #547
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I was looking for something in the rule book that defines what's the actual definition of control of the puck. I did not see anything. Think of it this way. Panarin is in full control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the line. He then makes a pass to a teammate. Why could you not be considered in control of the puck. You are controlling the direction of the puck. Logic to me says he is in an onside position so he can either skate the puck in or pass the puck forward into the zone. If at the time he makes that pass instead of passing the puck into the attack zone, his pass stays in the nuetral zone and Hartman carries it in then I would say offside. I think you can assume that when it says " a player that is in full control and possesion of the puck prior to his skates entering the zone cannot be offside I believe the puck would have to enter the zone by his actions to be still onside.

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03-20-2017, 07:30 PM
  #548
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I was looking for something in the rule book that defines what's the actual definition of control of the puck. I did not see anything. Think of it this way. Panarin is in full control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the line. He then makes a pass to a teammate. Why could you not be considered in control of the puck. You are controlling the direction of the puck.
Because after you have passed the puck, you no longer do control the direction of the puck. You did when you made the pass, but once it's on its way you are as powerless as anyone else on the ice (less so in some cases) to control it. For instance, at the moment that the puck crosses the line, if Panarin wanted to stop it or change its direction, would you say he has the ability to through any means? If not, why would you say he has control?

Conceptually, the puck at that point in the pass, mere feet from him, is really no different than if it was across the ice from him. In either case he has the same level of "control" over the puck.

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Old
03-20-2017, 08:01 PM
  #549
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The rule says he must be in control when his skates cross the line (which he was). The rule doesn't even address whether he needs to have control when the puck crosses the line (which he doesn't).

It's a hole in the rulebook. Since the rulebook does not address this scenario, it must mean that it has never happened before.

I love that.

The rulebook does not say that what happened on this specific play is to be considered offside. Unfortunately the rulebook does not say it is onside either.

NHL needs a press conference!

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