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Hawks OT goal - offside?

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:08 PM
  #101
notbias
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I'm going back and forth if this should have been called offside.

It is really hard to interpret this rule and have a definite answer.

My opinion is that possession is lost when you make a pass, therefore he put himself offside.

It has no relevance to the game anymore, so no point getting upset over that, but I'd be very curious to see an explanation from an official on this rule, cause I think there is a lot of grey surrounding it.

This all comes down to how you define possession I believe, but if possession is based on discretion from the refs you will get more inconsistency in the future.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:09 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
Why does that matter at all? The rule specifically says what matters is when his SKATES cross (not the puck)

However, a player actually controlling the puck who shall cross the
line ahead of the puck shall not be considered “off-side,” provided he
had possession and control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the
blue line.
Because he's not controlling the puck anymore and he's in the zone while the puck isn't

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:10 PM
  #103
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Old
03-18-2017, 10:10 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zar View Post
OK, guess I will have to do it this way...

Entire rules is below. The bolded part is the paragraph required to assess the situation we are discussing. The underlined parts are the parts to focus on as the key factors.

Off-side - Players of the attacking team must not precede the puck
into the attacking zone.
The position of the player’s skates and not that of his stick shall be
the determining factor in all instances in deciding an off-side. A player
is off-side when both skates are completely over the leading edge of
the blue line involved in the play.
A player is on-side when either of his skates are in contact with, or
on his own side of the line, at the instant the puck completely crosses
the leading edge of the blue line
regardless of the position of his stick.
However, a player actually controlling the puck who shall cross the
line ahead of the puck shall not be considered “off-side,” provided he
had possession and control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the
blue line.

It should be noted that while the position of the player’s skates is
what determines whether a player is “off-side,” nevertheless the
question of an “off-side” never arises until the puck has completely
crossed the leading edge of the blue line at which time the decision is
to be made.
If a player legally carries or passes the puck back into his own
defending zone while a player of the opposing team is in such
defending zone, the off-side shall be ignored and play permitted to
continue.


Offside.
You are embarrassing yourself. The text is very clear. All that matters is that he is in possession/control of the puck when his SKATES cross.

You do understand that this part:

However, a player actually controlling the puck who shall cross the
line ahead of the puck shall not be considered “off-side,” provided he
had possession and control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the
blue line.


Creates an exception to the overall rule right?

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:11 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
Because he's not controlling the puck anymore and he's in the zone while the puck isn't
Are you guys actually reading the rule. It says that as long as he was in control when his SKATES cross then he's not offside. I'm not sure how to make it any more clear

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:12 PM
  #106
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It pretty obviously comes down to 1 of 2 things.

1. The rule saying the time in question is when the skates cross, or...

2. When they deem possession lost

If it's 1 then it's a good goal, however it's a terrible rule, offside should always come down to criteria when the puck crosses the line

If it's 2 then they must deem Panarin still in possession for a little period of time after he passes it. I disagree, I think possession is lost the moment the puck comes off your stick during a pass, but this wouldn't be so black and white and thus it's probably this one because NHL

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:12 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
You are embarrassing yourself. The text is very clear. All that matters is that he is in possession/control of the puck when his SKATES cross.

You do understand that this part:

However, a player actually controlling the puck who shall cross the
line ahead of the puck shall not be considered “off-side,” provided he
had possession and control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the
blue line.


Creates an exception to the overall rule right?
Wait for the NHL to confirm the wrong call was made then you are the one who can feel shame.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:13 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
Are you guys actually reading the rule. It says that as long as he was in control when his SKATES cross then he's not offside. I'm not sure how to make it any more clear
lol

So he's onside until he goes off for a change?

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:13 PM
  #109
Keithsteeth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
lol

So he's onside until he goes off for a change?
I have no idea - I've said several times that the rule is strangely written and could create some strange scenarios.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:14 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zar View Post
Wait for the NHL to confirm the wrong call was made then you are the one who can feel shame.
And when they don't?

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:14 PM
  #111
TaLoN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
Are you guys actually reading the rule. It says that as long as he was in control when his SKATES cross then he's not offside. I'm not sure how to make it any more clear
Agreed, once he's deemed ON SIDE he can pass the puck, even if the puck is not all the way in the zone... he's already ruled ON SIDE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
lol

So he's onside until he goes off for a change?
I'd say he's onside until either the puck changes direction and thus never goes into the zone - or until the puck leaves the zone after entering legally in this case.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:14 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zar View Post
Wait for the NHL to confirm the wrong call was made then you are the one who can feel shame.
lol, you can't be that naive. Has the NHL ever said the wrong call was made on anything in it's entire history? Did they even come out and say the Duchene offside was the wrong call? Even if they know something is the wrong call they won't say it.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:14 PM
  #113
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100% offside

More garbage NHL officiating

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:14 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
The puck was on Panarin's stick before he crossed the blue line. Hence Panarin is on side.

The puck is over the blue line before Hartman crosses the blue line. Hence Hartman is on side.

Both players are on sides.
Right. So Panarin could pass it back, having entered onside, and waited around the net with the puck in the neutral zone, knowing he had entered onside.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:16 PM
  #115
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Shaggy goal

i.e. far from clear cut.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:17 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
I have no idea - I've said several times that the rule is strangely written and could create some strange scenarios.
Are you serious?

When the puck leaves the zone, any player still in the zone is offside until they leave it

That's offsides 101. We're dealing with offsides 401 here

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:17 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Right. So Panarin could pass it back, having entered onside, and waited around the net with the puck in the neutral zone, knowing he had entered onside.
I actually think that's an excellent question given how the rule is written.

I mean the rule says you can enter the zone ahead of the puck as long as you have control/possession of it when your skates fully cross the blue line.

I see no text that would prevent you from passing the puck backwards (before the puck enters the zone of course - that would be the loophole) and then continue to skate around in the zone

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03-18-2017, 10:18 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Right. So Panarin could pass it back, having entered onside, and waited around the net with the puck in the neutral zone, knowing he had entered onside.
I think passing it backwards would have made him offside. Even though he entered the zone legally, it still requires the process of the puck entering the zone which it did in this case.

If he passes it backwards, he's negating the zone entry and thus will have to clear the zone himself before the puck can be brought back in.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:19 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zar View Post
Wait for the NHL to confirm the wrong call was made then you are the one who can feel shame.
Umm this is the NHL we are speaking about, they are more likely to sweep this under the rug completely than admit that it was a missed call.

Say what you want about the NFL, they at least admit when their refs miss a call almost immediately. No accountability in the NHL.

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03-18-2017, 10:19 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
What they are saying is he is 'deemed' in possession despite not physically being in possession. So you pass the puck, somebody else receives it (there for somebody else is the factual in possession player) but you are still deemed in possession in the application of the interference rule.

The idea is there is a level of persistance in your 'deemed' possession after the point at which you factually no longer have possession.
Sorry for going back and bringing this back up, but it just popped into my head.

If the rule for interference has 2 meanings for possession, actual "factual possession"(puck on your stick) and "possession in the application of the interference rule". How are we supposed to be sure that the NHL decides to use the 2nd use of possession here and not the factual possession for determination of offside.

There's no definition of possession anywhere(I don't think) and I don't think you can just assume such and carry it over from the interference rule when the interference rule itself has 2 uses of the word possession.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:21 PM
  #121
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So, if a player is in possession of the puck, he skates into the offensive zone while the puck has yet to cross... he passes back to the dman before the puck enters the offensive zone (the puck crossing the leading edge of the blue line), rather than moving the puck forward. He then continues to move into the offensive zone then the Dman passes him the puck. Is he offside? Yes. You want to know why... offside is determined the instant the puck crosses the leading edge of the blue line.

Yet if you ONLY read the sentence below, some here would say he is on onside.

However, a player actually controlling the puck who shall cross the
line ahead of the puck shall not be considered “off-side,” provided he
had possession and control of the puck prior to his skates crossing the
blue line.


It doesn't work that way.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:21 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithsteeth View Post
I actually think that's an excellent question given how the rule is written.

I mean the rule says you can enter the zone ahead of the puck as long as you have control/possession of it when your skates fully cross the blue line.

I see no text that would prevent you from passing the puck backwards (before the puck enters the zone of course) and then continue to skate around in the zone
It is a really weird loop hole in the rules and one that no player is probably smart enough to actually exploit and probably wouldn't be enforced if it was anymore egregious then the scenario tonight because the play tonight is probably why that exception is in the rule book. But it does bring up a lot of interesting scenarios. It does look though by the rules that this was the right call I am just surprised they were able to come up with that call in like 10 seconds lol

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:22 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Umm this is the NHL we are speaking about, they are more likely to sweep this under the rug completely than admit that it was a missed call.

Say what you want about the NFL, they at least admit when their refs miss a call almost immediately. No accountability in the NHL.
You are probably right, unfortunately.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:22 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaLoN View Post
I think passing it backwards would have made him offside. Even though he entered the zone legally, it still requires the process of the puck entering the zone which it did in this case.

If he passes it backwards, he's negating the zone entry and thus will have to clear the zone himself before the puck can be brought back in.
The rulebook doesn't say anything about this though(I mean we are getting pretty heavily invested into reading the rulebook letter by letter here). All it says it the player legally entered the zone onside if he's in control and has possession of the puck when he enters the zone.

it's a poorly written rule. The determination should be when the puck enters the zone.

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Old
03-18-2017, 10:22 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by SimpleJack View Post
Are you Leafs fans gonna be okay? Does anyone need a tissue?
This could be similar to the next Cup winning goal. NHL might want to clarify it before it happens, and avoid looking like the integrity lacking incompetents they were in 1999.

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