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Trevor Timmins Part III

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Old
04-16-2017, 10:50 AM
  #101
Mathletic
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Originally Posted by jfm133 View Post
It's a bit an urban legend to say it was atrocious before Timmins. The problem is that Gainey gave away good players picked during that period and failed to manage Perezhogin properly.

1998-2002

Ribiero
Beauchemin
Markov
Ryder
Hainsey
Komisarek
Perezhogin
Plekanec
Higgins


So 9 players in 5 years including a great #1 D and two top-6 C.
How often do we hear how terrible the drafting was before Timmins got here. Let's compare the 10 drafts before Timmins to Trevor's drafts from 2003 to 2012.

Before

Hggins - Koivu - Ryder
Tucker - Plekanec - Asham
Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Ward
Hossa - Bordeleau - X

Markov - Robidas
Beauchemin - Komisarek
Hainsey - Clark
Carkner

Vokoun
Théodore
Garon

vs

Timmins

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher
AK - Gabovski - Latendresse
SK - Chipchura - D'Agostini
X - White - Lapierre

McDonagh - Subban
Beaulieu - Streit
Emelin - Weber
O'Byrne

Price
Halak

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Old
04-16-2017, 11:16 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by jfm133 View Post
It's a bit an urban legend to say it was atrocious before Timmins. The problem is that Gainey gave away good players picked during that period and failed to manage Perezhogin properly.

1998-2002

Ribiero
Beauchemin
Markov
Ryder
Hainsey
Komisarek
Perezhogin
Plekanec
Higgins


So 9 players in 5 years including a great #1 D and two top-6 C.
Most agree the drafting turned when Savard was hired, so I'm not sure how that 1998-2002 span makes any sense at all. Look at the drafting under Houle if you want to be honest. 1998 was great, but outside of that it was depressing to be a Habs fan.

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Old
04-16-2017, 11:48 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by MrNasty View Post
You answered your own question. Pacioretty is top forward drafted late in the first. I think if a team drafts a top line forward late in the first round every 10-15 years then they are doing well.
I think it's unacceptable that since Timmins time here, the only top forward drafted is Pacioretty. Jury is still out on Galchenyuk and he was a top 3 pick.

Timmins has been riding the coat tails of a great 2007 for 10 years now. TEN YEARS.


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Old
04-16-2017, 11:48 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
How often do we hear how terrible the drafting was before Timmins got here. Let's compare the 10 drafts before Timmins to Trevor's drafts from 2003 to 2012.

Before

Hggins - Koivu - Ryder
Tucker - Plekanec - Asham
Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Ward
Hossa - Bordeleau - X

Markov - Robidas
Beauchemin - Komisarek
Hainsey - Clark
Carkner

Vokoun
Théodore
Garon

vs

Timmins

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher
AK - Gabovski - Latendresse
SK - Chipchura - D'Agostini
X - White - Lapierre

McDonagh - Subban
Beaulieu - Streit
Emelin - Weber
O'Byrne

Price
Halak
I think Timmins is one of the best, but this proves even more that it was far from a disaster before him. Also, Timmins had 2 top-5 picks, which is not the case for its predecessors. It seems really hard for some to accept that the draft is a matter of average over a long period of time considering how high you draft.

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04-16-2017, 12:34 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
How often do we hear how terrible the drafting was before Timmins got here. Let's compare the 10 drafts before Timmins to Trevor's drafts from 2003 to 2012.

Before

Hggins - Koivu - Ryder
Tucker - Plekanec - Asham
Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Ward
Hossa - Bordeleau - X

Markov - Robidas
Beauchemin - Komisarek
Hainsey - Clark
Carkner

Vokoun
Théodore
Garon

vs

Timmins

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher
AK - Gabovski - Latendresse
SK - Chipchura - D'Agostini
X - White - Lapierre

McDonagh - Subban
Beaulieu - Streit
Emelin - Weber
O'Byrne

Price
Halak
I think team 1 could give team 2 a run for its money. Depends on what Price / Theo each team gets. If its hart Theo vs Hart Price team 1 might have the edge.

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Old
04-16-2017, 12:36 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
I think it's unacceptable that since Timmins time here, the only top forward drafted is Pacioretty. Jury is still out on Galchenyuk and he was a top 3 pick.

Timmins has been riding the coat tails of a great 2007 for 10 years now. TEN YEARS.

Just look at all the centers he has missed pn in his 14 years. Guys like Giroux Kopi Kuz Hayes Getzlaf Carter Richards etc... and thats just the 1st round.

Its unacceptable that the entire org has been blind to so many top 6 c even though we have been chasing pne since 93. The chase lead to Gomez and losing McD.

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Old
04-16-2017, 12:43 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
How often do we hear how terrible the drafting was before Timmins got here. Let's compare the 10 drafts before Timmins to Trevor's drafts from 2003 to 2012.

Before

Hggins - Koivu - Ryder
Tucker - Plekanec - Asham
Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Ward
Hossa - Bordeleau - X

Markov - Robidas
Beauchemin - Komisarek
Hainsey - Clark
Carkner

Vokoun
Théodore
Garon

vs

Timmins

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher
AK - Gabovski - Latendresse
SK - Chipchura - D'Agostini
X - White - Lapierre

McDonagh - Subban
Beaulieu - Streit
Emelin - Weber
O'Byrne

Price
Halak
Timmins might be an upgrade compared to his predecessor but that doesn't mean much if your comparing a Ford to Chevy.

Theres no excuse why one of the top 3 richest teams in hockey cannot have the best off-ice personnel available.

No Excuses!

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Old
04-16-2017, 12:44 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Just look at all the centers he has missed pn in his 14 years. Guys like Giroux Kopi Kuz Hayes Getzlaf Carter Richards etc... and thats just the 1st round.

Its unacceptable that the entire org has been blind to so many top 6 c even though we have been chasing pne since 93. The chase lead to Gomez and losing McD.
We are completely in agreeance here. Timmins ship has sailed IMO, its time to move on.

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04-16-2017, 12:49 PM
  #109
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To move on to what? Shane Churla? If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

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Old
04-16-2017, 01:26 PM
  #110
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To move on to what? Shane Churla? If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
One top line forward in 15 years, it is broken.

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Old
04-16-2017, 01:36 PM
  #111
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Yeah, I agree with the fact that while Timmins has botched some Round 1 picks, I don't really know who we go to otherwise. He's still very good overall.

I don't buy the "well x many team also passed over this guy". Well they're stupid too. Somebody picked them, and they are now a vastly better team. I also understand that in some cases, Timmins had to bite the bullet form management.

As for Macavoy, since moving to Boston, I've gone to a lot of BU games, and including the WJC, when I found out he was a bruins prospect...it was not pleasing. He's going to be an elite d-man. Def need to look more closely at NCAA, and particularly the Mass programs.

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Old
04-16-2017, 01:38 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Yeah, I agree with the fact that while Timmins has botched some Round 1 picks, I don't really know who we go to otherwise. He's still very good overall.

I don't buy the "well x many team also passed over this guy". Well they're stupid too. Somebody picked them, and they are now a vastly better team. I also understand that in some cases, Timmins had to bite the bullet form management.

As for Macavoy, since moving to Boston, I've gone to a lot of BU games, and including the WJC, when I found out he was a bruins prospect...it was not pleasing. He's going to be an elite d-man. Def need to look more closely at NCAA, and particularly the Mass programs.
Instead we have Malakhov Jr. who looks completely lost out there.

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04-16-2017, 02:39 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Instead we have Malakhov Jr. who looks completely lost out there.
Do you mean Serge? I actually really like him. Doesn't look lost to me considering his age. Macavoy is ahead of the curve (massively) for his age.

I really really like the Sergachev pick. He will also probably be our best Dman at some point, offensively at least, and who knows...maybe even Markov level defensive awareness. 4-5 years I'm talking.

But yeah, more just that I see a lot of Amercian teams realizing that homegrown talent is the way to go, and they're right. That said, it's puzzling how badly we've drafted (or rather not) from the Q.

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04-16-2017, 02:59 PM
  #114
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Do you mean Serge? I actually really like him. Doesn't look lost to me considering his age. Macavoy is ahead of the curve (massively) for his age.

I really really like the Sergachev pick. He will also probably be our best Dman at some point, offensively at least, and who knows...maybe even Markov level defensive awareness. 4-5 years I'm talking.

But yeah, more just that I see a lot of Amercian teams realizing that homegrown talent is the way to go, and they're right. That said, it's puzzling how badly we've drafted (or rather not) from the Q.
He's a total swing for the fences boom or bust pick, IMO. I like the skill set, I don't like the non-chalence of his game (I really don't care if this is how Price is either).

Time will tell if it was the right pick, but there was a lot of options at that spot that may come back to us

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04-16-2017, 03:08 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
How often do we hear how terrible the drafting was before Timmins got here. Let's compare the 10 drafts before Timmins to Trevor's drafts from 2003 to 2012.

Before

Hggins - Koivu - Ryder
Tucker - Plekanec - Asham
Perezhogin - Ribeiro - Ward
Hossa - Bordeleau - X

Markov - Robidas
Beauchemin - Komisarek
Hainsey - Clark
Carkner

Vokoun
Théodore
Garon

vs

Timmins

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gallagher
AK - Gabovski - Latendresse
SK - Chipchura - D'Agostini
X - White - Lapierre

McDonagh - Subban
Beaulieu - Streit
Emelin - Weber
O'Byrne

Price
Halak
Timmins team wins imo.

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Old
04-16-2017, 03:24 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by LaP View Post
Timmins team wins imo.
Maybe he wins, but not by much. So it is foolish to say it was atrocious before him. Both were good, the problem is what Gainey gave away for almost nothing

McDonagh
Beauchemin
Hainsey
Streit
Robidas
Ribiero
Higgins
Vokoun

He also offered to the Rangers the choice between Balej and Plekanec for Kovalev, and by chance New York took Balej.

The problem of this team in the last 25 years is not drafting, it's giving away good players for almost nothing. The only one that has been able to avoid it is Bergevin. With players like Danault and Byron he was able to do the opposite. Good asset management will pay off on the long run.

Considering the few top-5 picks we had in 25 years, only two, scouts did a very good job.

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Old
04-16-2017, 04:04 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfm133 View Post
It's a bit an urban legend to say it was atrocious before Timmins. The problem is that Gainey gave away good players picked during that period and failed to manage Perezhogin properly.

1998-2002

Ribiero
Beauchemin
Markov
Ryder
Hainsey
Komisarek
Perezhogin
Plekanec
Higgins


So 9 players in 5 years including a great #1 D and two top-6 C.
where did I say it was atrocious? I said,

Quote:
I know what it was like pre-Timmins and I shudder at the thought of going back to that.
what I should have said was pre-Timmins/pre-Andre Savard. Aside from the '98 draft the '90's to up to 2001 when Savard was brought in and then brought in Timmins after the '02 draft was terrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei79 View Post
Most agree the drafting turned when Savard was hired, so I'm not sure how that 1998-2002 span makes any sense at all. Look at the drafting under Houle if you want to be honest. 1998 was great, but outside of that it was depressing to be a Habs fan.
agreed.

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04-16-2017, 04:21 PM
  #118
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Just look at all the centers he has missed pn in his 14 years. Guys like Giroux Kopi Kuz Hayes Getzlaf Carter Richards etc... and thats just the 1st round.

Its unacceptable that the entire org has been blind to so many top 6 c even though we have been chasing pne since 93. The chase lead to Gomez and losing McD.
The problem is, and it's been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, that you can perform this exercise for every scout in the league. Every team misses on drafting players that become big stars. That's a fact.

Going forward, I hope the Habs will focus on BPA, especially on centres. I'd love to see the team expanding their amateur scouting presence in the Q and amateur and pro in Europe. All scouts must be evaluated on a regular basis and replaced if they have too many misses.

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04-16-2017, 04:31 PM
  #119
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where did I say it was atrocious? I said,

what I should have said was pre-Timmins/pre-Andre Savard. Aside from the '98 draft the '90's to up to 2001 when Savard was brought in and then brought in Timmins after the '02 draft was terrible.

agreed.
It really isn't all that much different from what Timmins has drafted in 10 years. If that's terrible then you have to conclude Timmins isn't too far from being terrible, also. No to mention, Timmins benefited from higher picks.

Savage - Koivu - Ryder
Tucker - Ribeiro - Bure
Petrov - Conroy - Asham
Hossa - Bordeleau - Ward

Markov - Robidas
Beauchemin - Rivet
Hainsey - Clark
Carkner

Vokoun
Théodore
Garon

...

you can always say, except 98, well except 2007 and except this and except that. On the whole, Timmins has been fine, nothing extraordinary, nothing terrible either, as far as I'm concerned.

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04-16-2017, 04:37 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
It really isn't all that much different from what Timmins has drafted in 10 years. If that's terrible then you have to conclude Timmins isn't too far from being terrible, also.

Savage - Koivu - Ryder
Tucker - Ribeiro - Bure
Petrov - Conroy - Asham
Hossa - Bordeleau - Ward

Markov - Robidas
Beauchemin - Rivet
Hainsey - Clark
Carkner

Vokoun
Théodore
Garon

...

you can always say, except 98, well except 2007 and except this and except that. On the whole, Timmins has been fine, nothing extraordinary, nothing terrible either, as far as I'm concerned.
the '90's were terrible it's one of the main reasons the Habs sucked so badly as they had nothing on the farm. It was night and day to follow our farm teams from the late '90's to what Timmins brought in.

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04-16-2017, 04:45 PM
  #121
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the '90's were terrible it's one of the main reasons the Habs sucked so badly as they had nothing on the farm. It was night and day to follow our farm teams from the late '90's to what Timmins brought in.
Sorry, I compare that 90's team to the one Timmins picked and it's really not that far off IMO.

Considering Timmins got to 3rd and 5th overall, which are extra picks comapred to the 90's, you have:

Price and Galchenyuk as extras

Core players:
Pacioretty, McDonagh, Subban, Gallagher
Koivu, Markov, Ribeiro, Beauchemin, Vokoun, Théodore

Complementary players:
AK, Gabovski, Streit, Halak, Beaulieu, Emelin, SK
Robidas, Rivet, Savage, Ryder, Tucker, Bure, Conroy, Hainsey


Last edited by Mathletic: 04-16-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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04-16-2017, 04:51 PM
  #122
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Sorry, I compare that 90's team to the one Timmins picked and it's really not that far off IMO.
not if you look at what they did for the Habs, it's a nightmare.

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04-16-2017, 04:52 PM
  #123
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not if you look at what they did for the Habs, it's a nightmare.
yeah but that has nothing to do with drafting. Timmins still gets credit McDonagh. Nobody blames him for getting Scott Gomez in return.

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04-16-2017, 04:59 PM
  #124
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yeah but that has nothing to do with drafting. Timmins still gets credit McDonagh. Nobody blames him for getting Scott Gomez in return.
to has to have something to do with it since it's kind of the whole point. The Habs were a bottom basement team for years because they couldn't draft for ****, add in they didn't handle their assets well.

McDonagh is one player, but that list of yours, half of them never did anything for the Habs.

But even with those I still take Timmins picks by a lot.

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04-16-2017, 05:00 PM
  #125
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The problem is, and it's been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, that you can perform this exercise for every scout in the league. Every team misses on drafting players that become big stars. That's a fact.
And this excuses our drafting how? We have been need of a C since Damphouse and the drafting has failed to find one since then. Plenty of opportunity to pick one and always missing. I am not talking about missing on 1 year, we are going on 14 years of TT and 10 years since before him. We have plenty of data its redicoulouse. Yet pages and pages of complaining about not having a top C on the team. While it starts at the draft table because thats the best place to find a C not through trades or UFA.

Going forward, I hope the Habs will focus on BPA, especially on centres. I'd love to see the team expanding their amateur scouting presence in the Q and amateur and pro in Europe. All scouts must be evaluated on a regular basis and replaced if they have too many misses.[/QUOTE]

I agree. The same should be applied to TT and his misses have been piling up. Lek buys him some time IMHO but Scherback/Julsen or Serge need to make an impact on this team and soon.

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