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Crosby Hat Trick and 2nd 40 goal or more season and still the best player in the NHL

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Old
03-20-2017, 09:18 AM
  #76
Jaded-Fan
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Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
There seems to be a segment of the hockey media that has begun discussing the Hart Trophy more from the perspective of the Best Player in the regular season, less so than "most valuable to his team". Bob McKenzie would be a notably member of this group.
Which is sensible. It has become a silly award as half vote on it as a NHL MVP award and half a team MVP award. If it is a team MVP award then it shouldn't be the most prestigious award in hockey as it is a pretty crappy award. Gretztky, Mario, really no one on a good team should ever win one. The best player on the crappiest team in the league should win each year.

If you want proof of what this award really is look no further than this, and similar, threads. People argue over who is the best in the NHL, and then bring up the Hart. No doubt what most think that the award means. So if it actually means something else make the Lindsey the most important award in hockey and put the Hart below the Lady Byng award in importance.

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Old
03-20-2017, 09:19 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Kane has 59, Crosby has 58. Marchand sits with 53, Malkin 49, Sheary 44 and Guentzel is with 24 (all but 1 are ES). Oh and McDavid has 58 as well.
Scheifele has 58 ES points as well .

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Old
03-20-2017, 09:24 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
You need to not let HFboards skew your view about players, that sort of crap was perpetuated more here than anywhere else. Crosby might have chirped a ton his first year because of the crap he had to put up with, but after that first year, he was relatively quiet and Captains always talk to refs a lot, it's part of that role.

Personality stuff..the guy has never not been a great ambassador to the sport with fans and people alike.
What an arrogant and stupid thing to say.

So, if someone has a differing opinion from yourself it's because they have been "skewed" by a message board's perception?

It could have nothing to do with personal experience and different perception from your own?

Who are you to disregard somebody's own perception of another situation? You know people have eyes, ears and a brain and many simply don't just "parrot a skewed perception".
Get off your high horse and let people have their own opinion that doesn't share your point of views.

If people believe Crosby is a ***** they are entitled to it. You have NO idea as to how they reached their conclusions and assuming WHY they believe so makes you look like a giant dick.

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03-20-2017, 09:31 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by IamNotADancer View Post
What an arrogant and stupid thing to say.

So, if someone has a differing opinion from yourself it's because they have been "skewed" by a message board's perception?

It could have nothing to do with personal experience and different perception from your own?

Who are you to disregard somebody's own perception of another situation? You know people have eyes, ears and a brain and many simply don't just "parrot a skewed perception".
Get off your high horse and let people have their own opinion that doesn't share your point of views.

If people believe Crosby is a ***** they are entitled to it. You have NO idea as to how they reached their conclusions and assuming WHY they believe so makes you look like a giant dick.
Uh, one could assume the same in re: your opinion of their post, given how circular that logic is.


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Old
03-20-2017, 09:35 AM
  #80
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Congrats, what a player

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Old
03-20-2017, 09:37 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
Which is crazy to me. IMO, McDavid should be frontrunner for the Hart right now.
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Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
Personally. IF we're going by the explicit description of the award, I'd give it to Erik Karlsson personally. And I'm a Leafs fan.
Yeah, or even Carey Price in Montreal.

Hart *HAS* to be very closely tied in to "best player" to an extent, or it loses all prestige. Different teams are made in different ways, and some teams "rely" on certain players more than others.

I mean - objectively speaking - is there an argument for ANY player in the NHL being "relied on" more than Carey Price in Montreal? When he played last year Habs are 1st. When he's injured, they're the worst team. When he played decent this year, they're in 1st. When he had a bad stretch, they suffered greatly.

MVP doesn't mean the player whose team "relies" on the most. Most Valuable and "Best" should go hand in hand.

If one player can be deemed to be quite convincingly the "best" player above others - he also earns MVP by default. If it's very much up for debate who the "best" player is - than you can start factoring in whose "relied on" the most.

McDavid is "relied" on in Edmonton more than Crosby in Pittsburgh. Sure, i think everyone can see that, since Pittsburgh has a better overall team.
But if Crosby is "better" than McDavid by a certain gap, he should earn the MVP award. If it's deemed they're both "as good/the best" - than maybe you can use the "mvp/relied on" argument as a tiebreaker to McDavid.

If Crosby wins Rocket + Ross in that much less games than anyone, i'd argue he's been "convincingly the best player" this year and should earn the Hart.

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Old
03-20-2017, 09:37 AM
  #82
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He plays on a line with Sheary, If I'd play on a line with Sheary I would put up those numbers as well

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Old
03-20-2017, 09:45 AM
  #83
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That is not actually true. He got the line mates make that make him go, but he wasn't playing very well in 2017 up until a week ago (McDavid's play had slipped as well).

The best players the second half of the season have been Kane, Marchand, Backstrom and Burns.

And while I have no idea who the best player in the NHL is, there are a lot of players that are very close, I am pretty sure McDavid is the very definition of "MVP" this season.
Sound logic there, Crosby's got the linemates that make him go, meanwhile Kane, Marchand, Backstrom are playing with bums like Bergeron, Ovechkin, Oshie, Panarin etc..

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Old
03-20-2017, 11:26 AM
  #84
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Another Oiler fan here to day Crosby is still ahead of McDavid. While I feel Connor is a more exciting player to watch, he is not as well rounded of a player as Sid and not as good defensively.

Just to set one thing straight though... having Malkin as #2 C is an advantage... it's logical and a valid factor, not a 'punishment', when comparing McDavid vs. Crosby.
Yea Crosby has better players around him, but Mcdavid wouldn't be playing 21-22 minutes on the penguins. He'd be playing 18-19 minutes like Crosby and Malkin do. Not to mention both Crosby and Malkin seem to up their game when the other is out.

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Old
03-20-2017, 11:40 AM
  #85
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I hate the notion that making a bad team into a good team is somehow more valuable than taking a good team and making them great. Just because the team around him is good doesn't detract from how much value he adds.

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Old
03-20-2017, 11:51 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Kangaroo Salesman View Post
Sound logic there, Crosby's got the linemates that make him go, meanwhile Kane, Marchand, Backstrom are playing with bums like Bergeron, Ovechkin, Oshie, Panarin etc..
😄 Logic 101

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Old
03-20-2017, 11:54 AM
  #87
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If I had to make the argument, I would compare McDavid playing on a team that was 29th last season, whereas Crosby plays on the defending Stanley Cup champions. I realize who's "better" remains more complicated than that, and yet McDavid has a better case for the Hart Trophy if a voter looks at it from a MVP perspective.
i think Crosby is still the better player right now, but i don't disagree with this analysis. i'd have no problem giving the Hart to McDavid.

he has been Chewbacca getting C3PO out of cloud city this year.

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Old
03-20-2017, 11:56 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I hate the notion that making a bad team into a good team is somehow more valuable than taking a good team and making them great. Just because the team around him is good doesn't detract from how much value he adds.
People who take that route tend to confuse "value" with "relative value". It's not the MRVP award.

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Old
03-20-2017, 11:57 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I hate the notion that making a bad team into a good team is somehow more valuable than taking a good team and making them great. Just because the team around him is good doesn't detract from how much value he adds.
This has always been my beef with people who use the "without him his team wouldn't even make the playoffs" argument. It defines "most valuable to his team" only in the sense of transforming a 9th or 10th seed into a 7th or 8th seed. What about the value of transforming a 7th or 8th seed into a 4th or 5th seed? Or a 4th or 5th seed into a 1st or 2nd seed?

Like you said, "most valuable" should also apply to players who turn good teams into great teams, not just average teams into good teams.

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Old
03-20-2017, 11:58 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Duffalufagus View Post
i think Crosby is still the better player right now, but i don't disagree with this analysis. i'd have no problem giving the Hart to McDavid.

he has been Chewbacca getting C3PO out of cloud city this year.
While trying to fix it as much as he can...

Nice metaphora.

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Old
03-20-2017, 12:00 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I hate the notion that making a bad team into a good team is somehow more valuable than taking a good team and making them great. Just because the team around him is good doesn't detract from how much value he adds.
I agree frankly. I mean, the Pens are one of 4 teams tightly contesting for the President's Trophy and currently on pace for 114 points. I really don't see why being the best player in that group is less valuable than the guy who does it on a bubble team, or somewhere in between.

I have never agreed with penalizing players for the Hart simply because they play on good teams. It's nonsense.

I'm talking in terms of general thoughts here. Not specifically saying Crosby has to win. But, I'd say his case is as strong as anyone.

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Old
03-20-2017, 12:24 PM
  #92
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Burns, Crosby, and Mcdavid

Imagine all three on the same team! Can't wait for it!!!!!!!!

Arguments can be made for all three guys. I am an oilers fan with season tickets that watches connor every night. Disclaimer: although I try not to be I am to be biased.

Crosby is a superstar that shows flashes of brilliance mario/wayne level. Its a shame the best years may have been lost to head injuries.

Mcdavid plays at a wayne mario level every night. I don't think its a question is he the best right now because I believe the real question is will he be the best of all time when its said and done. He's that good and he is just getting started.

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Old
03-20-2017, 12:27 PM
  #93
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I don't even think it's debatable that Crosby is better than McDavid. I watch tons of Oilers games on GCL because I love watching McDavid play but Crosby just does so much more.

Like say for example if the puck is in the defensive end Crosby will just separate a player from the puck with one arm and his body and than one hand the puck to a teammate all in one motion, something McDavid cannot do. Malkin is still better than McDavid imo too. He's just stronger and makes more consistent decisions between shooting/passing/using the body.

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Old
03-20-2017, 12:32 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by St8Sh00ter View Post
Burns, Crosby, and Mcdavid

Imagine all three on the same team! Can't wait for it!!!!!!!!

Arguments can be made for all three guys. I am an oilers fan with season tickets that watches connor every night. Disclaimer: although I try not to be I am to be biased.

Crosby is a superstar that shows flashes of brilliance mario/wayne level. Its a shame the best years may have been lost to head injuries.

Mcdavid plays at a wayne mario level every night. I don't think its a question is he the best right now because I believe the real question is will he be the best of all time when its said and done. He's that good and he is just getting started.
I do not agree with this statement

Honestly, I'm all for a debate about Crosby / McDavid now, or where McDavid will be in a few years, etc... but why even make a statement like that? You have either a) never watched 66 or 99, b) have, but have forgotten, or c) know that you're lying.

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03-20-2017, 12:36 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by St8Sh00ter View Post
Burns, Crosby, and Mcdavid

Imagine all three on the same team! Can't wait for it!!!!!!!!

Arguments can be made for all three guys. I am an oilers fan with season tickets that watches connor every night. Disclaimer: although I try not to be I am to be biased.

Crosby is a superstar that shows flashes of brilliance mario/wayne level. Its a shame the best years may have been lost to head injuries.

Mcdavid plays at a wayne mario level every night. I don't think its a question is he the best right now because I believe the real question is will he be the best of all time when its said and done. He's that good and he is just getting started.
you're not trying very hard...

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Old
03-20-2017, 01:02 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by MRY71 View Post
I don't even think it's debatable that Crosby is better than McDavid. I watch tons of Oilers games on GCL because I love watching McDavid play but Crosby just does so much more.

Like say for example if the puck is in the defensive end Crosby will just separate a player from the puck with one arm and his body and than one hand the puck to a teammate all in one motion, something McDavid cannot do. Malkin is still better than McDavid imo too. He's just stronger and makes more consistent decisions between shooting/passing/using the body.
My best guess is that McDavid is being told to not engage too closely in the defensive end when it's not necessary. Since you watch the Oilers you therefore know the reason being is that the more effective play for the Oilers is to have someone else disrupt the cycle and then hit McDavid on the fly for a rapid counter-attack. The mere thought of this happening often has opposing defensemen unwilling to engage from the point when McDavid is defending because they are one wrong step away from being turnstiled. Overall, each MVP-caliber player has their specific strengths that even the other elite players in the league cannot duplicate.

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Old
03-20-2017, 01:11 PM
  #97
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Preach.

Crosby has silenced all his critics. The guys a god damn legend whether the last few groups of people that hate Crosby like it or not.

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Old
03-20-2017, 01:13 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by St8Sh00ter View Post
Burns, Crosby, and Mcdavid

Imagine all three on the same team! Can't wait for it!!!!!!!!

Arguments can be made for all three guys. I am an oilers fan with season tickets that watches connor every night. Disclaimer: although I try not to be I am to be biased.

Crosby is a superstar that shows flashes of brilliance mario/wayne level. Its a shame the best years may have been lost to head injuries.

Mcdavid plays at a wayne mario level every night. I don't think its a question is he the best right now because I believe the real question is will he be the best of all time when its said and done. He's that good and he is just getting started.
You're trying not to be biased and you think the debate of 97 vs 99/66 for the greatest of all time is more interesting than 97 vs 87 for the best right now? The 97 that has 128 career points and has yet to step on the ice in the playoffs or win any individual or team awards at the NHL level? None of that is his fault considering he is 20 and in his 2nd (1st full) season, but it also means his name can't even be mentioned in those discussions yet.

You need to try a little harder..

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Old
03-20-2017, 01:17 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by St8Sh00ter View Post
Burns, Crosby, and Mcdavid

Imagine all three on the same team! Can't wait for it!!!!!!!!

Arguments can be made for all three guys. I am an oilers fan with season tickets that watches connor every night. Disclaimer: although I try not to be I am to be biased.

Crosby is a superstar that shows flashes of brilliance mario/wayne level. Its a shame the best years may have been lost to head injuries.

Mcdavid plays at a wayne mario level every night. I don't think its a question is he the best right now because I believe the real question is will he be the best of all time when its said and done. He's that good and he is just getting started.
Ya.....i dont think so. Crosby at 19 was an offensive force, much more than he is now, and left his peers in the dust. Mcdavid at 19 doesn't even come close to that level. Its unfortunate few concussions in the past is preventing him from driving the net as much as he did back when he was a kid.

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Old
03-20-2017, 01:27 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by kevy999 View Post
. I am looking to how Connor creates so many more chances than any player in the nhl by far.
5v5 SCF/60

Crosby- 13.4
McDavid-12.26

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