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Sylvain Lefebvre Discussion II

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Old
03-20-2017, 07:54 AM
  #1
montreal
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Sylvain Lefebvre Discussion II

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
What kids montreal? Give me the kids you think were ruined?

I think it has more to do with the quality of our picks.

I watched around 15 games this year.

I don't care about Sly at all , I just don't understand why this guy gets so much flak when we clearly don't have any blue-chip prospects down there. There's no Subban or Pacioretty on that team!

Expecting him to develop solid NHLers is just unrealistic in my opinion.
I wouldn't look at it as ruined, since most prospects won't make the NHL, I look at it as what prospects have turned into NHLers. In 5 years we have Beaulieu, half a season of Gallagher. That's brutal. Every 1st round pick he has coached has struggled in the NHL so far, every single one. That should raise red flags with management. Guess we'll see what they think of him this summer.

I do think he ruined Leblanc though, watched him at every level since his USHL days and the kid was not the same after playing for Lefebvre. Not saying it's all his fault, but Leblanc was going along fine imo and then he looked like a shell of himself.

What do you think of him putting Scherbak with Audette?

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03-20-2017, 09:31 AM
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I wouldn't look at it as ruined, since most prospects won't make the NHL, I look at it as what prospects have turned into NHLers. In 5 years we have Beaulieu, half a season of Gallagher. That's brutal. Every 1st round pick he has coached has struggled in the NHL so far, every single one. That should raise red flags with management. Guess we'll see what they think of him this summer.

I do think he ruined Leblanc though, watched him at every level since his USHL days and the kid was not the same after playing for Lefebvre. Not saying it's all his fault, but Leblanc was going along fine imo and then he looked like a shell of himself.

What do you think of him putting Scherbak with Audette?
What killed Leblanc's career was his ankle injury and what resulted between his ears afterwards. I don't say this to defend Lefebvre as I really don't like him but, facts are facts. Koivu lost the edge that mad him a #1 C as soon as his knee blew out. The team tried to force a square peg in a round hole for years with the Captain afterwards, like it did with Plekanec and Desharnais.

Galchenyuk is much more talented than all of those and we're not sure yet whether playing him as a #1 C isn't another case of forcing a square peg into a round hole.

Leblanc wasn't even close to all of these players in terms of NHL talent, IMO.


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03-20-2017, 09:35 AM
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He sucks. Get rid of him. End of discussion.

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03-20-2017, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
continue from,

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1819285






I wouldn't look at it as ruined, since most prospects won't make the NHL, I look at it as what prospects have turned into NHLers. In 5 years we have Beaulieu, half a season of Gallagher. That's brutal. Every 1st round pick he has coached has struggled in the NHL so far, every single one. That should raise red flags with management. Guess we'll see what they think of him this summer.

I do think he ruined Leblanc though, watched him at every level since his USHL days and the kid was not the same after playing for Lefebvre. Not saying it's all his fault, but Leblanc was going along fine imo and then he looked like a shell of himself.

What do you think of him putting Scherbak with Audette?
Well, Beau and Bigmac are in the NHL, Tinordi and Leblanc were bad picks in my opinion. And then you have Scherbak, who seems to be progressing.

The center depth is non-existent down there... The only center with real offensive skill as sad as it sounds is Audette... BigMac was up and down the whole season, DLR doesn't really have an offensive upside...

I mean, it's not like tons of options are available.

I think they play Terry at center right now because of the lack of options...

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03-20-2017, 11:31 AM
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I'm not a Lefebvre hater but I do agree it's time for change. The prospect pool from 2008-2011 was terrible and the only two guys that came from the system were Gallagher and Beaulieu. Leblanc and Tinordi were decent picks but they didn't turn out into anything and sometimes that's on the player.

Time for a change in Laval. Start fresh with new ideas.

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03-20-2017, 11:31 AM
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the talent pool is very shallow...

thank you TT

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03-20-2017, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorius View Post
the talent pool is very shallow...

thank you TT
I don't think it's a coincidence that the prospect pool "dried" up once we started trading away picks and Sly became coach. Scouts don't forget how to scout talent. This is on Sly and Bergevin.

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03-20-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I don't think it's a coincidence that the prospect pool "dried" up once we started trading away picks and Sly became coach. Scouts don't forget how to scout talent. This is on Sly and Bergevin.
During 2012, 2013 and 2014 drafts we picked 3 times in the first round, 5 times in the second round and 4 times in the third round! Try again.

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03-20-2017, 12:41 PM
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Bring in Bouchard or Ducharme for Laval

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03-20-2017, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
During 2012, 2013 and 2014 drafts we picked 3 times in the first round, 5 times in the second round and 4 times in the third round! Try again.
Are players drafted in 2013 and 2014 already bust?

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03-20-2017, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
During 2012, 2013 and 2014 drafts we picked 3 times in the first round, 5 times in the second round and 4 times in the third round! Try again.
2012 he just started and inherited his excess picks.
2013: He inherited picks for A. Kosty, Cammy & Cole trades that Gauthier made
2014: no 2nd and 4th
2015: no 2nd and 4th
2016: no 2nd

See for yourself:

http://www.prosportstransactions.com...ears/index.htm

No second round picks in the last 3 years and you don't think that thins out a prospect pool?? Hard to build trhough the draft when you're constantly trading 2nd rounders. Harder still when whatever you do draft has to play for a perennial loser for a farm team that has Sly as the coach who has limited coaching experience and what he does have, isn't very good.

For the players who have made it and bypassed Sly altogether, they include Chucky, Gally, Lehkonen etc. All drafted by Timmins... Timmins has proven he can draft among the best in the NHL and has drafted some of the best players in the game and all without the benefit of top 5 picks (except Chucky who's one of the best in his class). What has Sly proven exactly??

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03-20-2017, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
2012 he just started and inherited his excess picks.
2013: He inherited picks for A. Kosty, Cammy & Cole trades that Gauthier made
2014: no 2nd and 4th
2015: no 2nd and 4th
2016: no 2nd

See for yourself:

http://www.prosportstransactions.com...ears/index.htm

No second round picks in the last 3 years and you don't think that thins out a prospect pool?? Hard to build trhough the draft when you're constantly trading 2nd rounders. Harder still when whatever you do draft has to play for a perennial loser for a farm team that has Sly as the coach who has limited coaching experience and what he does have, isn't very good.

For the players who have made it and bypassed Sly altogether, they include Chucky, Gally, Lehkonen etc. All drafted by Timmins... Timmins has proven he can draft among the best in the NHL and has drafted some of the best players in the game and all without the benefit of top 5 picks (except Chucky who's one of the best in his class). What has Sly proven exactly??
Most AHL coaches have/had limited coaching experience.

The guy was assistant coach at Colorado and in the AHL before getting the job with the Habs.

No, he's not the best coach around. And could/should be fired. But he had very little in his hands to do much better. You cannot turn crap into gold.

Having draft picks is great...if you choose right. But having scouts like in Pitts burg who can find gems like Sheary or Rust (a 3rd round pick) or Guetzel, or can sign the best scorer in the whole NCAA this year, is also important. Tampa Bay system provided great prospects too, thanks to Julien Brisebois.


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03-20-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Victorius View Post
Most AHL coaches have/had limited coaching experience.

The guy was assistant coach at Colorado and in the AHL before getting the job with the Habs.

No, he's not the best coach around. And could/should be fired. But he had very little in his hands to do much better. You cannot turn crap into gold.

Having draft picks is great...if you choose right. But having scouts like in Pitts burg who can find gems like Sheary or Rust (a 3rd round pick) or Guetzel, or can sign the best scorer in the whole NCAA this year, is also important. Tampa Bay system provided great prospects too, thanks to Julien Brisebois.
Classic chicken and the egg argument. Sly sucks because he didn't have anything to work with is BS. Fist off, a good coach can take an average team and make them better than the sum of their parts. Sly is incapable of doing this as he's literally never showed he can win in his coaching career. His has a total of two seasons over .500 at .533 and .547. And no, most good AHL coaches have exemplary experience in juniors which is how they get to the AHL, not by having played for the team and they do you a solid by making you an assistant coach of a farm team based on your experience as a player. By your logic, Nick Carriere is qualified to be an AHL coach because he has experience as an AHL assistant coach because of who his dad is.

I'll reiterate again, Timmins already has a proven track record of having drafted some of the best players in the league. Sly has proven nothing at the coaching level for nearly a decade. If anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt over the other, it's Timmins over Sly and it's not even close.

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03-20-2017, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
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Are players drafted in 2013 and 2014 already bust?
Who said that? They're developing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
2012 he just started and inherited his excess picks.
2013: He inherited picks for A. Kosty, Cammy & Cole trades that Gauthier made
2014: no 2nd and 4th
2015: no 2nd and 4th
2016: no 2nd

See for yourself:

http://www.prosportstransactions.com...ears/index.htm

No second round picks in the last 3 years and you don't think that thins out a prospect pool?? Hard to build trhough the draft when you're constantly trading 2nd rounders. Harder still when whatever you do draft has to play for a perennial loser for a farm team that has Sly as the coach who has limited coaching experience and what he does have, isn't very good.

For the players who have made it and bypassed Sly altogether, they include Chucky, Gally, Lehkonen etc. All drafted by Timmins... Timmins has proven he can draft among the best in the NHL and has drafted some of the best players in the game and all without the benefit of top 5 picks (except Chucky who's one of the best in his class). What has Sly proven exactly??
I know our draft. You said that our prospect pool sucks because apparently Bergevin traded a ton of picks and Sly is terrible. This is bs. We had enough picks in 12/13 and 14.

The 15 and 16 drafts are still in junior. We'll be able to judge those drafts in a couple of years...

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03-20-2017, 03:40 PM
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Classic chicken and the egg argument. Sly sucks because he didn't have anything to work with is BS. Fist off, a good coach can take an average team and make them better than the sum of their parts. Sly is incapable of doing this as he's literally never showed he can win in his coaching career. His has a total of two seasons over .500 at .533 and .547. And no, most good AHL coaches have exemplary experience in juniors which is how they get to the AHL, not by having played for the team and they do you a solid by making you an assistant coach of a farm team based on your experience as a player. By your logic, Nick Carriere is qualified to be an AHL coach because he has experience as an AHL assistant coach because of who his dad is.

I'll reiterate again, Timmins already has a proven track record of having drafted some of the best players in the league. Sly has proven nothing at the coaching level for nearly a decade. If anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt over the other, it's Timmins over Sly and it's not even close.
As you wish. I think both guys + their assistants coaches and scouts should be fired.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=3077

I invite you to see his records and have a look at the line ups he had in the last 5 years in the AHL. He had to deal with about 200 different players. Find me some future HoF in that bunch.

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03-20-2017, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
Who said that? They're developing...



I know our draft. You said that our prospect pool sucks because apparently Bergevin traded a ton of picks and Sly is terrible. This is bs. We had enough picks in 12/13 and 14.

The 15 and 16 drafts are still in junior. We'll be able to judge those drafts in a couple of years...
The players he drafted were coached by Sly. Therein lies the problem! The two years we actually had a lot of picks, they were mostly coached by Sly and they did terribly even though they had great junior careers and international ones for the ones who went. The years we didn't have those 2nds is still too soon as you said but hopefully they won't have Sly to kill their development either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorius View Post
As you wish. I think both guys + their assistants coaches and scouts should be fired.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=3077

I invite you to see his records and have a look at the line ups he had in the last 5 years in the AHL. He had to deal with about 200 different players. Find me some future HoF in that bunch.
I can look up the record for the Marlies and a bunch of other teams that he equally bad or worse teams and who had better records. Bottom line is Sly is a terrible coach. You think so as well so not sure what you're trying to argue here...

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03-20-2017, 05:53 PM
  #17
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The players he drafted were coached by Sly. Therein lies the problem! The two years we actually had a lot of picks, they were mostly coached by Sly and they did terribly even though they had great junior careers and international ones for the ones who went. The years we didn't have those 2nds is still too soon as you said but hopefully they won't have Sly to kill their development either.




I can look up the record for the Marlies and a bunch of other teams that he equally bad or worse teams and who had better records. Bottom line is Sly is a terrible coach. You think so as well so not sure what you're trying to argue here...
What I was trying to show you is that you cannot really win or develop players when you have to deal with so many different players, mostly mediocre players or just plain average. Lefebvre, for me, is not better or worse than any other AHL coaches. Him or another, I don't care. But after 5 years, it's time to move on.

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03-20-2017, 06:32 PM
  #18
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What killed Leblanc's career was his ankle injury and what resulted between his ears afterwards. I don't say this to defend Lefebvre as I really don't like him but, facts are facts. Koivu lost the edge that mad him a #1 C as soon as his knee blew out. The team tried to force a square peg in a round hole for years with the Captain afterwards, like it did with Plekanec and Desharnais.

Galchenyuk is much more talented than all of those and we're not sure yet whether playing him as a #1 C isn't another case of forcing a square peg into a round hole.

Leblanc wasn't even close to all of these players in terms of NHL talent, IMO.
yes that ankle injury set him back but it shouldn't have killed his career. I know facts are facts, I watched Leblanc in the USHL, in the NCAA, in the Q, at the WJC's, in Hamilton, in the NHL. He was doing well along along the way, yes he had his faults but things were going well enough. Then he plays for Lefebvre and his game looks like a shell of his former self. To me at the very least raises red flags as to development issues. Not saying Leblanc would have done anything in the NHL, that under a different coach it wouldn't have ended up the say way just that I don't agree with how Lefebvre handled Leblanc and to me Leblanc looked good enough pre-Lefebvre and much worse after playing for Lefebvre. Leblanc, management, Timmins all have their share of the blame in his busting as I have said in these threads over the years but I still think it looks bad on Lefebvre for how he handled him.

It's not just Leblanc, Lefebvre has made questionable decisions with several prospects which to me when you put it all together, at least as someone that very closely follows our AHL team and our prospects, it stinks. In a sick way I so badly wanted Lefebvre to replace Therrien so that fans can see some of the crazy stuff he does. Putting guys like Stortini, Macenauer, Courtnall on the PP and on the top line at least drove me nuts especially when you have the worst PP in the league and were on the outside of the playoff picture once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
Well, Beau and Bigmac are in the NHL, Tinordi and Leblanc were bad picks in my opinion. And then you have Scherbak, who seems to be progressing.

The center depth is non-existent down there... The only center with real offensive skill as sad as it sounds is Audette... BigMac was up and down the whole season, DLR doesn't really have an offensive upside...

I mean, it's not like tons of options are available.

I think they play Terry at center right now because of the lack of options...
Beaulieu is his lone NHLer as I don't count half a season of Gallagher. That's 5 years. We didn't have trouble turning AHLers in NHLers under different AHL coaches, the head scout with a proven track record has been here all along. Maybe the issue is more at the development level then it is at the scouting level. Not to say that scouts don't make mistakes, just seems odd to me that we did well under Boucher, the Randy's, Don Lever and now it's just terrible. Maybe McCarron shows something in the NHL, Scherbak hopefully gets a new AHL coach next year to help him round out his game. Hudon, DLR could be NHLers in a year or two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
During 2012, 2013 and 2014 drafts we picked 3 times in the first round, 5 times in the second round and 4 times in the third round! Try again.
8 of those 21 picks have appeared in the NHL and that number will likely go higher. Funny the 2 best picks to date never appeared in an AHL game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorius View Post
Most AHL coaches have/had limited coaching experience.

The guy was assistant coach at Colorado and in the AHL before getting the job with the Habs.

No, he's not the best coach around. And could/should be fired. But he had very little in his hands to do much better. You cannot turn crap into gold.

Having draft picks is great...if you choose right. But having scouts like in Pitts burg who can find gems like Sheary or Rust (a 3rd round pick) or Guetzel, or can sign the best scorer in the whole NCAA this year, is also important. Tampa Bay system provided great prospects too, thanks to Julien Brisebois.
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What I was trying to show you is that you cannot really win or develop players when you have to deal with so many different players, mostly mediocre players or just plain average. Lefebvre, for me, is not better or worse than any other AHL coaches. Him or another, I don't care. But after 5 years, it's time to move on.
Depends on what your definition of very limited coaching experience is. Don Lever was an NHL assistant and AHL head coach for some 16 years before going to Hamilton. Randy Cunneyworth was in the NHL as an assistant coach before joining Hamilton and was a head coach in the AHL for 8 or so years before that. Clement Jodoin twice was the Q coach of the year, had 9 or so seasons in the NHL as an assistant head coach. Guy Boucher had a few years in the Q.

The Habs have had the scouts that make great draft picks, Kristo was the 2nd leading scorer in the NCAA, Halak, Streit, Sergei Kostitsyn, Grabovski, Gallagher, all mid to late round steals. Funny how the same scouts did the job under different AHL coaches but not under this one.

As for a coach, he might not be able to turn crap into gold, but he should at least be able to turn crap into somewhat decent hockey players. Do you watch their games, do you watch how terrible they are at times defensively? Or the strange decisions the coach makes. To me he's the worst coach I have seen from our AHL team, I can't even stand to listen to him talk hockey, Guy Boucher's pre/post game interviews were the best. Listening to Lefebvre talk hockey makes my ears bleed, watching his coached teams makes me want to drink heavily. I've never coached a hockey game in my life (had an offer once to help with a new USHS program just outside of philly) and I've had offers to scout for McKeens and ISS in the past when I worked for HF covering the Habs, I've never coached a playoff game in my life and yet I have coached as many AHL playoff games as Lefebvre.

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03-20-2017, 06:45 PM
  #19
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What I was trying to show you is that you cannot really win or develop players when you have to deal with so many different players, mostly mediocre players or just plain average. Lefebvre, for me, is not better or worse than any other AHL coaches. Him or another, I don't care. But after 5 years, it's time to move on.
So in 5 years he hasn't managed to develop more than Beaulieu and you think he's an average AHL coach? Mind you, it took 3 years in the NHL to even get him a regular shift in the bottom pairing so there's that too.

There's the problem. You don't go that long and not produce more than 1 NHLer. If he was a broken clock, he'd only be right once a day which is a pretty tough task to accomplish!

Edit: Looks like Julien feels the same way.

#Habs Julien says McCarron is part of fwds rotation & he'd rather have Big Mac up here in and out of lineup and learning, instead of in AHL.


Last edited by shutehinside: 03-21-2017 at 11:52 AM.
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03-21-2017, 04:23 PM
  #20
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Yep, in the system we have Scherbak, Hudon, DLR, Evans and Bitten. Vejdemo is a huge maybe.

Although, our prospect pool isn't good on D, either.. we have Lernout, Juulsen, Sergachyov and Mete.
But, but , Lefebvre!

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03-21-2017, 05:17 PM
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But, but , Lefebvre!
Yeah, he's the greatest coach in the AHL, isn't he?

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03-21-2017, 05:41 PM
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Yeah, he's the greatest coach in the AHL, isn't he?
He's not the reason we are not developing impactful NHLers.

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03-21-2017, 05:44 PM
  #23
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He's not the reason we are not developing impactful NHLers.
He's not helping and should thus be changed for someone who can.

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03-21-2017, 05:54 PM
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He's not helping and should thus be changed for someone who can.
Debatable but I don't care, hire someone else.

Need to draft better prospects if we want to have some results...

I mean, look at that montreal table! Will Bitten is your best offensive prospect, and the guy needs to play one more year in junior... Pathetic.

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03-21-2017, 05:57 PM
  #25
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Debatable but I don't care, hire someone else.

Need to draft better prospects if we want to have some results...

I mean, look at that montreal table! Will Bitten is your best offensive prospect, and the guy needs to play one more year in junior... Pathetic.
Junior prospects =/= prospects as a whole. It's not because that Bitten is our best shot in the CHL (Evans says hello) that we have to forget about Scherbak and Hudon who are both in the AHL.

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