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Old
03-20-2017, 05:30 PM
  #51
Uncle Gary
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
He doesn't generate offense and his PPG isn't high enough.


Interesting stat, that's for sure.


Even shatters his franchise and signs the biggest offersheet ever big. With fat big 14m dollar checks every year. Man of character he is. Doesn't hit big, pass big, or play big in the playoffs though. End of story.
I would be interested to see your list of #1 D

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Old
03-20-2017, 05:32 PM
  #52
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He might be less efficient than advertised. Normal because the hype is immense.

But he will be voted into the HOF. No doubt. Anglo canadian members of the HOF love this guy. He's the prototypical canadian hockey player.

And it's not a popularity contest anyways. Amongst his peers he's considered elite.
I know you didn't mean anything by it but I just wanted to point out that it was a Franco GM that traded for him and an Anglo American who traded him away and a Franco coach who peed all over himself when he heard he was getting the prototypical Canadian hockey player. And now we have another Franco coach who relishes the thought of putting him out on the ice. So I'm pretty sure any Franco members of the HOF feel about the same as their Anglo counterparts.

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Old
03-20-2017, 05:41 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'll narrow down the list for you a bit. It doesn't include:

Subban: 90.7% vs. Rinne 92.3%, Saros 92.7%
Karlsson: 91.6% vs. Anderson 93.8%, ~Condon 91.5%
And what makes those stats even more impressive is that he plays against the toughest competition and for half of the year he did it with a Russian anchor strapped to his ankle.

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03-20-2017, 05:41 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
He might be less efficient than advertised. Normal because the hype is immense.

But he will be voted into the HOF. No doubt. Anglo canadian members of the HOF love this guy. He's the prototypical canadian hockey player.

And it's not a popularity contest anyways. Amongst his peers he's considered elite.
Webby is a lock for the HOF? Not so sure imo. If he wins a cup maybe.

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03-20-2017, 05:43 PM
  #55
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Webby is a lock for the HOF? Not so sure imo. If he wins a cup maybe.
Would you say the same thing about PK, Karlsson, Burns?

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03-20-2017, 05:45 PM
  #56
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Webby is a lock for the HOF? Not so sure imo. If he wins a cup maybe.
His reputation far outweighs his accomplishments thus far in my opinion. That's enough for a first year inclusion.

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Old
03-20-2017, 05:46 PM
  #57
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Would you say the same thing about PK, Karlsson, Burns?
Huh? PK isn't a lock for the HOF, neither is Burns.

Karlsson I'd say is, if he maintains his play. Only 26 y/o still.

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Old
03-20-2017, 05:49 PM
  #58
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His reputation far outweighs his accomplishments thus far in my opinion. That's enough for a first year inclusion.
I think you're right. He's got a great reputation. It doesn't matter if his career justifies that reputation, it's reputation that gets you into the HOF. The hockey HOF is probably the worst in pro sports. It's something like 16 guys who vote in secret and we've seen all kinds of weird results.

As for Weber being deserving? He's had a lot of years where he's scored a lot of goals and he's been pretty solid. He'd be far from the worst to be inducted.

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03-20-2017, 05:49 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Habs Icing View Post
And what makes those stats even more impressive is that he plays against the toughest competition and for half of the year he did it with a Russian anchor strapped to his ankle.
On top of starting in his own zone (where shots against happen, obviously) 53.5% of the time, vs. 51.6 (Subban) or 47.5 (Karlsson).

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Old
03-20-2017, 05:53 PM
  #60
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I think you're right. He's got a great reputation. It doesn't matter if his career justifies that reputation, it's reputation that gets you into the HOF. The hockey HOF is probably the worst in pro sports. It's something like 16 guys who vote in secret and we've seen all kinds of weird results.

As for Weber being deserving? He's had a lot of years where he's scored a lot of goals and he's been pretty solid. He'd be far from the worst to be inducted.
If Lindros finally got in, I'm not worried about Webby getting in

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03-20-2017, 05:57 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think you're right. He's got a great reputation. It doesn't matter if his career justifies that reputation, it's reputation that gets you into the HOF. The hockey HOF is probably the worst in pro sports. It's something like 16 guys who vote in secret and we've seen all kinds of weird results.

As for Weber being deserving? He's had a lot of years where he's scored a lot of goals and he's been pretty solid. He'd be far from the worst to be inducted.
It would take a rather weak class for him to get in, imo. If he manages to win a cup or a Norris then the conversation becomes a little more interesting.

As we know with his contract, he still has tons of time.

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03-20-2017, 05:58 PM
  #62
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If Lindros finally got in, I'm not worried about Webby getting in
How it takes Lindros about 8 years to get in while Neely gets in after only 2 seasons is exhibit A of what's wrong with that HOF. Made no sense whatsoever except that Bobby Clarke is on that panel.

As for Weber, he'll be a HOFer for sure.
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It would take a rather weak class for him to get in, imo. If he manages to win a cup or a Norris then the conversation becomes a little more interesting.

As we know with his contract, he still has tons of time.
He'll get in. The old boys network loves him.

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Old
03-20-2017, 06:03 PM
  #63
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Huh? PK isn't a lock for the HOF, neither is Burns.

Karlsson I'd say is, if he maintains his play. Only 26 y/o still.
So in Karlsson's case you admit it's irrelevant if he doesn't win the cup.

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03-20-2017, 06:04 PM
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How it takes Lindros about 8 years to get in while Neely gets in after only 2 seasons is exhibit A of what's wrong with that HOF. Made no sense whatsoever except that Bobby Clarke is on that panel.

As for Weber, he'll be a HOFer for sure.

He'll get in. The old boys network loves him.

Isnt Lindros like a Royal A-Hole IRL though? He did spit in the Nordiques face when he refused to play there. I always figured that was the main reason it took him so long to get in? Who knows though. Has anyone else ever refused to play for their drafted team before?

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03-20-2017, 06:06 PM
  #65
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So in Karlsson's case you admit it's irrelevant if he doesn't win the cup.
Karlsson might have 4+ Norris' to his name by the time his career winds down. So yes. I don't see Weber winning one at this point, with the competition he's up against.

I think Doughty is a lock as well.

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Isnt Lindros like a Royal A-Hole IRL though? He did spit in the Nordiques face when he refused to play there. I always figured that was the main reason it took him so long to get in? Who knows though. Has anyone else ever refused to play for their drafted team before?
His parents weren't fans of former Nordiques president Marcel Aubut, who we now know turns out to be a major perv and a horrible person.

He spends a lot of time now raising awareness and helping educate about brain injures in sports. RDS did a nice mini documentary on him recently.


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Old
03-20-2017, 06:11 PM
  #66
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Isnt Lindros like a Royal A-Hole IRL though? He did spit in the Nordiques face when he refused to play there. I always figured that was the main reason it took him so long to get in? Who knows though. Has anyone else ever refused to play for their drafted team before?
It doesn't matter if he's a jackass. Neely shouldn't be in to begin with. But to take him over Lindros is ridiculous.

Him being a jackass wouldn't be a problem if they did things the right way and opened the field to public voting. But when it's a small group of old boys then personal agendas take hold.

On the other hand, Neely had, no cups, no scoring titles, no first team all stars, no Richards... less than 400 goals and less than 700 points. There's no way that guy should be in the HOF. But the old boys loved him so...
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Karlsson might have 4+ Norris' to his name by the time his career winds down. So yes.

I think Doughty is a lock as well.
Karlsson will probably be a 1st ballot guy when he's done. Doughty too. No way Doughty should have the Norris he does though. That vote was an atrocity. As far as I'm concerned that one belongs to Karlsson.

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Old
03-20-2017, 06:17 PM
  #67
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So in Karlsson's case you admit it's irrelevant if he doesn't win the cup.
Karlsson will go down as the best defenseman of this era. Quite frankly, I think by the time it's all said and done he will go down as one of the best ever.

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03-20-2017, 06:22 PM
  #68
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Shea Weber a #1 D-man?

That's probably the absolute dumbest thing ever written here, and the kind of stuff... yada yada yada

Come back when you have some substance or want to over a counter-argument. Lebowski wrote exactly what I wanted to write - try to refute it without resorting to hot air.


I'm not going to discuss the trade.

This year, with a healthy Price, a better forward corps, and a roster that knows better - the team yet again suffered a calamitous collapse. Shea Weber did nothing to prevent it and his performances did a lot to actually cost us: -10 and a mere 6 points in a month, from MAN MOUNTAIN HIMSELF. Oh my god.

I'm not going to discuss the trade or Subban because it will derail the thread. Let's keep the focus on this supposed #1 d-man, shall we? The #1 who can't pass, can't carry the puck, can't make plays, and needs to be coddled and carried by his partners to look acceptable.


He's not getting anywhere close to the hall of fame. He's done nothing in his career to earn even a mention. Wade Redden has a better shot than Weber, he's at least made it past the second round of the playoffs.


Marc-Andre Bergeron had 15 goals in a season once and Sheldon Souray, well he had 26 goals!

Goals, out of context, don't determine who is a #1 d-man and they don't determine how useful you are to your team on the ice. Markov had less goals than Souray, he was clearly the better player.

Shea Weber has a great shot and is very effective defensively. But hockey is a fluid game and just being "steady" in the back isn't enough for a #1. He doesn't carry the puck, he doesn't pass the puck well, and he relies on his partner far too much. Just like Alex Galchenyuk, on paper, has all the stats to be a #1 C but we all know he isn't there yet - Shea Weber, on paper, looks fine but on the ice doesn't bring enough to be a #1 D-man.

There aren't 30 #1C's either. #1 means what it means. It means a d-man who can play huge minutes almost independently to his partner, who can make plays and support his team offensively, and who can change the tide of a game single-handedly. Chris Pronger was a #1 d-man. Erik Karlsson is a #1 d-man. Peak Zdeno Chara was a #1 d-man. Shea Weber is a far, far cry from all three.



I'd like for the conversation to remain open and focused on what Shea Weber actually does bring. Because it ain't hitting, it ain't toughness, and it ain't a #1 D-man. He is, without question, the most overrated player in the NHL today.
The only problem on these boards is the way you all try to make your point by being absolutely disingenuous in your evaluations and always going to extremes to try and score debating points. Your whole arguments become ridiculous.

If I choose to agree with the side that states that Weber is not a #1D, I'm almost forced to agree that he isn't even a beer league quality D. Needs to be carried by his partner to look acceptable? Come on. It's the blatant exaggerations that cheapen your point.

6 points, -10 for January. Without knowing everything surrounding the Habs, it's easy to make judgment calls. Weber has been reportedly injured since before X-Mas and playing nonetheless because the Habs D would be overly exposed without him.

He is playing a little less minutes of late, and that's a good thing. His shot had suffered for a while but, seems to be coming back around. It appears to be a sign that he must be healing.

I'm looking forward to the playoffs to make a personal opinion about the quality of his play (hopefully he is healthy for the postseason) rather than read exaggerated evaluations from someone clearly jaded by his man crush getting traded.

IMO, Weber is unimpressive but steady defensively. He's been off on a few nights (all players have rights off) but gets up after taking snapshots off the shin and resumes his workload.

In his way, Weber is defensively dependable team player out there and no team-mate seems to feel he is as over-rated as you maintain.

He made Emelin look like a better D all season long by plying strong positional hockey. He isn't a flashy skater but, it's not true that he can't make any passes. He's a steady player that goes for the high percentage play and guides his choices according to game situations.

His shot is heavy but, more importantly, he is usually able to find the shooting late and get the puck to the net on a majority of occasions, despite the double teaming he gets when he sets up at the opponent's blue line and awaits a one-timer opportunity.

He logs tons of minutes and has a solid +/- despite playing against the opponents' best players.

Your definition of a #1 D is too narrow. Let's agree that Weber is not your preferred type of #1D. Let's also agree that he appears to be overpaid because he isn't that type of noticeable #1D (outside of when he scores off his booming shot).

I also feel he's looked soft but, earlier on in the season, he had more bite, if you like. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in the physicality department because I believe that he was injured and suspect it was to a shoulder since his shot was underexploited for a stretch during the so-called collapse (where we still remained in 1st place despite plenty of key players out with injuries).

I believe that Weber is much better than you claim and not as good as some claim. A #1D? No problem there.

I don't believe he is bribing the National team in order to be selected. National team leader on the backend or as bad a D as you make him out to be?

I don't really know wy but, I'm leaning towards your having a faulty evaluation of what weber brings to a hockey club.

Every good thing that Weber does looks routine. He's extremely solid positionally and rarely forces the play to get caught in a needless turnover. Not particularly pretty, I'll agree but, effective without being extremely noticeable, the same way Price looks effortless because of his solid technique and isn't proven to being flashy to draw attention.

Not unlike Price, Weber is intimidating to opponents precisely because he makes his play look routine and rarely gets carried away.

I believe that Subban was more entertaining to watch but, that doesn't make Weber less effective.

Again, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because, after watching some hits he took, both from pucks and players, I'm surprised he,s played so many games this season.

But I get it. You're not a Weber fan. Too bad for you if you really remain a Habs fan.

I don't think that you need to be a cheerleader of everything Canadiesn to be a Habs fan but, I've been coming across alleged fans who have absolutely nothing good to say about any aspect of the team, players, coaching staff or GM.

Beyond that, they don't even offer leads for potential solutions. If that's being a fan, life must be one massive letdown.

This forum is one particularly popular venue to vent about anything and everything...

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03-20-2017, 06:30 PM
  #69
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Over the past 5 seasons including this one, Weber has had 221 points in 355 games. That is 0.62 points/game. Meanwhile, Doughty who everyone seems to love, has 195 points in 361 games. That works out to 0.54 points/game. So if Weber doesn't have a high enough points/game to be a #1 D then I guess Doughty isn't either.

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03-20-2017, 06:30 PM
  #70
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The only problem on these boards is the way you all try to make your point by being absolutely disingenuous in your evaluations and always going to extremes to try and score debating points. Your whole arguments become ridiculous.

If I choose to agree with the side that states that Weber is not a #1D, I'm almost forced to agree that he isn't even a beer league quality D. Needs to be carried by his partner to look acceptable? Come on. It's the blatant exaggerations that cheapen your point.

6 points, -10 for January. Without knowing everything surrounding the Habs, it's easy to make judgment calls. Weber has been reportedly injured since before X-Mas and playing nonetheless because the Habs D would be overly exposed without him.

He is playing a little less minutes of late, and that's a good thing. His shot had suffered for a while but, seems to be coming back around. It appears to be a sign that he must be healing.

I'm looking forward to the playoffs to make a personal opinion about the quality of his play (hopefully he is healthy for the postseason) rather than read exaggerated evaluations from someone clearly jaded by his man crush getting traded.

IMO, Weber is unimpressive but steady defensively. He's been off on a few nights (all players have rights off) but gets up after taking snapshots off the shin and resumes his workload.

In his way, Weber is defensively dependable team player out there and no team-mate seems to feel he is as over-rated as you maintain.

He made Emelin look like a better D all season long by plying strong positional hockey. He isn't a flashy skater but, it's not true that he can't make any passes. He's a steady player that goes for the high percentage play and guides his choices according to game situations.

His shot is heavy but, more importantly, he is usually able to find the shooting late and get the puck to the net on a majority of occasions, despite the double teaming he gets when he sets up at the opponent's blue line and awaits a one-timer opportunity.

He logs tons of minutes and has a solid +/- despite playing against the opponents' best players.

Your definition of a #1 D is too narrow. Let's agree that Weber is not your preferred type of #1D. Let's also agree that he appears to be overpaid because he isn't that type of noticeable #1D (outside of when he scores off his booming shot).

I also feel he's looked soft but, earlier on in the season, he had more bite, if you like. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in the physicality department because I believe that he was injured and suspect it was to a shoulder since his shot was underexploited for a stretch during the so-called collapse (where we still remained in 1st place despite plenty of key players out with injuries).

I believe that Weber is much better than you claim and not as good as some claim. A #1D? No problem there.

I don't believe he is bribing the National team in order to be selected. National team leader on the backend or as bad a D as you make him out to be?

I don't really know wy but, I'm leaning towards your having a faulty evaluation of what weber brings to a hockey club.

Every good thing that Weber does looks routine. He's extremely solid positionally and rarely forces the play to get caught in a needless turnover. Not particularly pretty, I'll agree but, effective without being extremely noticeable, the same way Price looks effortless because of his solid technique and isn't proven to being flashy to draw attention.

Not unlike Price, Weber is intimidating to opponents precisely because he makes his play look routine and rarely gets carried away.

I believe that Subban was more entertaining to watch but, that doesn't make Weber less effective.

Again, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because, after watching some hits he took, both from pucks and players, I'm surprised he,s played so many games this season.

But I get it. You're not a Weber fan. Too bad for you if you really remain a Habs fan.

I don't think that you need to be a cheerleader of everything Canadiesn to be a Habs fan but, I've been coming across alleged fans who have absolutely nothing good to say about any aspect of the team, players, coaching staff or GM.

Beyond that, they don't even offer leads for potential solutions. If that's being a fan, life must be one massive letdown.

This forum is one particularly popular venue to vent about anything and everything...
reading your description of Weber, first word that comes to mind is bland.


what's your favortite color ? beige.

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03-20-2017, 06:32 PM
  #71
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Over the past 5 seasons including this one, Weber has had 221 points in 355 games. That is 0.62 points/game. Meanwhile, Doughty who everyone seems to love, has 195 points in 361 games. That works out to 0.54 points/game. So if Weber doesn't have a high enough points/game to be a #1 D then I guess Doughty isn't either.
All part of why I'm sitting back and waiting for him to engineer those goal posts for us to test out...

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03-20-2017, 06:35 PM
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reading your description of Weber, first word that comes to mind is bland.


what's your favortite color ? beige.
You might see that as a negative, but someone who thinks better fitting clothes and ease/ability to coordinate with other articles of clothing might not sacrifice those things in order to flaunt their favourite colour. Can't exactly leverage opinion against opinion, so I don't get your point here.

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03-20-2017, 06:46 PM
  #73
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You might see that as a negative, but someone who thinks better fitting clothes and ease/ability to coordinate with other articles of clothing might not sacrifice those things in order to flaunt their favourite colour. Can't exactly leverage opinion against opinion, so I don't get your point here.
you mean, someone who was drilled the idea...

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03-20-2017, 06:56 PM
  #74
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He might be less efficient than advertised. Normal because the hype is immense.

But he will be voted into the HOF. No doubt. Anglo canadian members of the HOF love this guy. He's the prototypical canadian hockey player.

And it's not a popularity contest anyways. Amongst his peers he's considered elite.
You put a team of these guys together and they kick the rest of the worlds ass at hockey !!!


O Canada !!

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03-20-2017, 07:47 PM
  #75
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reading your description of Weber, first word that comes to mind is bland.


what's your favortite color ? beige.
My Favorite colour is W, who gives a **** about bland if it Wins!

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