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NHL divisional playoff format is drawing criticism

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Old
03-23-2017, 02:32 PM
  #76
Jetsfan79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCRanger View Post
Except the Rangers aren't 7th - Toronto is with 83 points.
Yes it looks like TSN.ca doesn't re-adjust conference standings by points. The smaller gap does mitigate my misgivings in the play-in but a 5-8 point gap is large enough for me to still not be totally sold on the idea. I'm more open to the idea of a 8-9 play in though.

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Old
03-23-2017, 02:42 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCRanger View Post
Except the Rangers aren't 7th - Toronto is with 83 points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetsfan79 View Post
Yes it looks like TSN.ca doesn't re-adjust conference standings by points. The smaller gap does mitigate my misgivings in the play-in but a 5-8 point gap is large enough for me to still not be totally sold on the idea. I'm more open to the idea of a 8-9 play in though.
Put it however you want...
Metro
WSH
PIT
CLB

Atlantic
MTL
OTT
TOR

WC
NYR
BOS

Rangers are 7th in east per current standings.

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Old
03-23-2017, 03:02 PM
  #78
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Invoking "big boy pants" invalidates any argument. It's like Godwin's Law but with lederhosen.

Divisions are cool. I think the obsession with perfectly balanced conferences and schedules and "fairness" is over done. As long as things are reasonably balanced, it's good enough. The season is long so that more than enough balances out perceived schedule advantages. Endurance matter more.

As to divisional playoffs, we saw the sham of false competition the Norris division presented in the 80's. It's an old lesson, but I guess it needs to be relearned.

What I would really like to see is a format that allows the two best teams in the league a chance to meet in the final. With current locked-in divisional/conference formats, it's very difficult to have that. Some years it would be impossible. *

* Easiest way is Conference 1-8 for the first two rounds, then reseed the final four.

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03-23-2017, 03:04 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetsfan79 View Post
A one day single game elimination while may technically be a play-off game, many would consider it a bonus game after the regular season that decides who makes the "16" teams of play-offs.
I don't think people would care about that distinction, TBH. NCAA basketball has play-ins, and I've never heard anyone upset about being in one. You just treat it as a playoff game.

Not that play-ins are the only solution. There's always the bye option like the NFL uses.

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Old
03-23-2017, 03:25 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
then reseed the final four.
This is something I think they should build around, regardless of anything else they would do with the rest of the playoff format.

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Old
03-23-2017, 03:28 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
Invoking "big boy pants" invalidates any argument. It's like Godwin's Law but with lederhosen.

Divisions are cool. I think the obsession with perfectly balanced conferences and schedules and "fairness" is over done. As long as things are reasonably balanced, it's good enough. The season is long so that more than enough balances out perceived schedule advantages. Endurance matter more.

As to divisional playoffs, we saw the sham of false competition the Norris division presented in the 80's. It's an old lesson, but I guess it needs to be relearned.

What I would really like to see is a format that allows the two best teams in the league a chance to meet in the final. With current locked-in divisional/conference formats, it's very difficult to have that. Some years it would be impossible. *

* Easiest way is Conference 1-8 for the first two rounds, then reseed the final four.
Actually only way, is to do away with divisions and conferences and just have a 30 team league with the top 16 making the play-offs. Frankly, I think that would be dumb, but who knows. However, from 1994-2013, the 2 "best" teams met in the Eastern Conference Finals only 3 times and only once was it the 1 v 2 seed (NJ-Ott in 2003). The others were 1994 between the Rangers and Devils and 2000 between the Devils and Flyers. If it only happened 3 times in 19 seasons with the top 8, do you really think it would ever happen were the 1 and 2 would get to the finals in a top-16 arrangement? I certainly don't. It happens fairly regularly in the NBA, because the nature of the game is completely different.

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Old
03-23-2017, 03:33 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I don't think people would care about that distinction, TBH. NCAA basketball has play-ins, and I've never heard anyone upset about being in one. You just treat it as a playoff game.

Not that play-ins are the only solution. There's always the bye option like the NFL uses.
Every time the "play-in" is mentioned on my local sports radio in WPG, the consensus from the radio guys seems to reflect what I'm saying (not fair losing your ticket to the "real" playoffs due to 1 game). Not saying everyone feels like that across the board though.

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Old
03-23-2017, 03:50 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jetsfan79 View Post
Every time the "play-in" is mentioned on my local sports radio in WPG, the consensus from the radio guys seems to reflect what I'm saying (not fair losing your ticket to the "real" playoffs due to 1 game). Not saying everyone feels like that across the board though.
I mean, it would undoubtedly get resistance before the fact. Everything does.

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03-23-2017, 05:33 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I don't think people would care about that distinction, TBH. NCAA basketball has play-ins, and I've never heard anyone upset about being in one. You just treat it as a playoff game.

Not that play-ins are the only solution. There's always the bye option like the NFL uses.
You don't hear about it in THE NCAA because the field is determined by some arbitrary method for those lower seeds. But want to use a pro sport that has a wildcard one game play in that's MLB. And they get a ton of grief for it.

As to a bye that won't work if you're trying to add teams you have to get to a multiple of 4 for it to workout in the end. So the numbers start to get stupid really quick about the teams making the playoffs. Like 28 if there are 4 teams with a bye.

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03-23-2017, 05:45 PM
  #85
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MLB doesn't get much grief because winning the division is much more important. Two teams get a chance to play in to have a series with one of the division winners.

I don't know that you can have play-in games with such a huge playoff field in the first place and get away with it.

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Old
03-23-2017, 08:31 PM
  #86
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And you can't have a conference based playoff bracket, when you have a divisional weighted regular season schedule.

So let's get to 32 teams remove the wildcard and go strict top 4 per division.

Because honestly, regardless of the format there will always be a team that complains about the current system if an alternative would give them home ice, or get them in.

And how much media coverage for these complaints will revolve entirely around the size of the market doing the complaining

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03-24-2017, 12:08 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsanuri View Post
You don't hear about it in THE NCAA because the field is determined by some arbitrary method for those lower seeds. But want to use a pro sport that has a wildcard one game play in that's MLB. And they get a ton of grief for it.

As to a bye that won't work if you're trying to add teams you have to get to a multiple of 4 for it to workout in the end. So the numbers start to get stupid really quick about the teams making the playoffs. Like 28 if there are 4 teams with a bye.
And a lot of the grief that MLB gets is that the play-in is a one and done. There are quite a few people that would be fine with it if it were a 3 game series or even a best of 5 that don't like the current format. NHL adopting a best of 3 that was suggested earlier would be an answer to that issue if the league were to adopt the play-in concept.

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03-24-2017, 05:56 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by tsanuri View Post
You don't hear about it in THE NCAA because the field is determined by some arbitrary method for those lower seeds. But want to use a pro sport that has a wildcard one game play in that's MLB. And they get a ton of grief for it.

As to a bye that won't work if you're trying to add teams you have to get to a multiple of 4 for it to workout in the end. So the numbers start to get stupid really quick about the teams making the playoffs. Like 28 if there are 4 teams with a bye.
Most people I know love the wild card game. I'm a Mets fan and even though it backfired this year, I still love it. Puts value on winning the division.

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03-24-2017, 06:46 AM
  #89
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I think the grief for the one and done in baseball is because they have a 160 something? game regular season decided by a single game. But really it's only the higher seed who complains.

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03-24-2017, 06:55 AM
  #90
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All these trends are cyclical. It's not like we're going to have a finish at the top of the Metro like this every year. Teams rise and fall. The 1-8 format was good but I do like rebirth of the divisional format. I grew up on the Norris Division playoffs.

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03-24-2017, 08:36 AM
  #91
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When we get to a 32-team NHL, will they even keep the wildcard?

My view is once the wildcard is scrapped, it makes each divisional game that much more important. Hence bigger rivalries and potential viewership.

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03-24-2017, 08:55 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoalzie View Post
All these trends are cyclical. It's not like we're going to have a finish at the top of the Metro like this every year. Teams rise and fall. The 1-8 format was good but I do like rebirth of the divisional format. I grew up on the Norris Division playoffs.
And one year no Norris team had more wins than losses. Take that current Metro division!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky_Hoyt View Post
When we get to a 32-team NHL, will they even keep the wildcard?

My view is once the wildcard is scrapped, it makes each divisional game that much more important. Hence bigger rivalries and potential viewership.
If and/or when they get there, a lot will depend on where the team is. Say it's Quebec, but now that Detroit is in the east, would the Wings go back to the Central? They don't want to give up all those 7pm games. The Blue Jackets have settled in pretty nicely too. Seattle? Then there would actually be too many teams near the west coast. There would be 9 of them, plus Colorado in the middle of nowhere. Does Detroit want to be in a division with Colorado an additional time zone away? Probably not.

They might not even keep the same divisions, let alone the wild card, with 32 teams. There might be another massive realignment. Maybe more complicated than the last one.

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03-24-2017, 08:58 AM
  #93
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The current system is not how I'd do it but nothing is perfect. The idea I like best is letting top seeds pick their 1st round opponent. A big change for sure but it doesn't fundamentally change the game, and adds a ton of entertainment value that may draw in new fans.

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03-24-2017, 10:04 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Caeldan View Post
I think the grief for the one and done in baseball is because they have a 160 something? game regular season decided by a single game. But really it's only the higher seed who complains.
Yes, and I say, "so"? In 2014, the Royals and Giants each played 162+play-offs plus 6 games in the World Series. Came down to 1 game. In 1978, Yankees and Red Sox played 162 games, were tied and then it was 1 game for the division. Happens enough that it should not be a big deal.

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03-25-2017, 12:04 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by NCRanger View Post
Going back to Original Six days, 4 out of 6 teams made the playoffs. When the league expanded, it went to 8 of 12. Then 12 of 17. Eventually to 16 of 21. That 16 number hasn't changed as the league is now at 31 teams. That puts more emphasis on each game. That has led to the defensive systems we have now which has made the game worse, IMO.

Expanding the playoffs not only has the benefit of keeping more fans of more teams engaged, it probably would open the game up slightly. I've argued that the Dead Puck Era correlated with expansion as implementing a system was/is a whole lot easier than finding/developing skilled players. I really don't think the 80's offensive era had much to do with the players in the league at the time; I find it more of a fact that you were most likely making the playoffs anyway, so there was less emphasis on playing hard defense, and more emphasis on scoring. Third liners back in the 80's were guys scoring 20 goals.

It also means a 2-5-1 start doesn't kill a team before the leaves are falling.

Not to mention, teams would no longer be in hockey purgatory, continually finishing 9th or 10th in the conference, not making the playoffs, but not finishing low enough to draft a real immediate game changer in the 1st round. It also mitigates the tanking strategy, which has to be one of the worst things that has ever seen the light of day in professional sports. The current playoff structure encourages tanking.
It's interesting when looking at the history like that. 16/21 would be equivalent to 23 teams making the playoffs today.

I would definitely prefer a shorter 70 game regular season with an extra round of playoffs in its place. Maybe the regular season should be about weeding out the bottom 20-30% of teams.

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Old
03-25-2017, 01:13 AM
  #96
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Things like playoff systems always look more unliked than they actually are.

People who don't like them will complain about them. In person. On the radio. On the Internet.

People who don't mind them are unlikely to bother saying anything.

People often only speak up when they don't like something.

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03-25-2017, 01:16 AM
  #97
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People often only speak up when they don't like something.
Dave Keon rarely spoke.

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03-25-2017, 03:53 PM
  #98
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Best way is 8 divisions of 4 teams, every first and second of each division go in the series.

Mtl
Tor
Ott
Que

Nj
Ny
Ny
Bos

Pitt
buff
Phil
Was

Clbs
Det
flo
tb

Chi
nash
min
Stl

Dal
col
ari
veg

calg
vanc
edm
winn

Sj
la
ana
Seat

If carolina stay, switch queb with detroit, and switch detroit with carolina

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03-25-2017, 04:06 PM
  #99
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I don't want to hear any owners or players complain. They're the ones who approved this stupid system.

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Old
03-28-2017, 09:33 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelle Lindbergh View Post
Best way is 8 divisions of 4 teams, every first and second of each division go in the series.

Mtl
Tor
Ott
Que

Nj
Ny
Ny
Bos

Pitt
buff
Phil
Was

Clbs
Det
flo
tb

Chi
nash
min
Stl

Dal
col
ari
veg

calg
vanc
edm
winn

Sj
la
ana
Seat

If carolina stay, switch queb with detroit, and switch detroit with carolina
I'm going to reiterate your idea as I've suggested it before, when the NHL does this they should increase the amount of playoff teams to 24, divisional 2 and 3 play a best of 3, winner of that series plays the division winner in a best of 5, at most you extend the playoffs by one game, I honestly believe that an increase in playoff teams will improve the on ice product.

I contend that fewer meaningful games = better entertainment since players will feel more capable of taking risks without jeopardizing the long term future of their team.

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