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Flames will move without a new Arena

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Old
06-11-2017, 05:31 PM
  #551
Hoser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Neither will you find partners to build restaurants, hotels, casinos and bars to pay higher property taxes around a library.


There's a new Hilton hotel being built RIGHT NEXT TO the new Calgary central library.

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Last edited by Killion: 06-11-2017 at 05:39 PM. Reason: easy Hoser...
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Old
06-14-2017, 06:58 PM
  #552
Cawz
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Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Neither will you find partners to build restaurants, hotels, casinos and bars to pay higher property taxes around a library.

When a city is trying to attract musical acts or sports franchises, a public option might make sense. When a city is very large and in need, a private option could become profitable.

Anything in-between is going to require a public-private mix and there's always going to be a way for it to be profitable for both CSEC and the City. Exploring that is more useful than rabble-rousing about billionaires.
Exactly. Arenas have spin-off investment that a library doesnt.

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Originally Posted by Aceboogie View Post
This is very true. Calgary already poured a bunch of money into their downtown in the past and it resulted in a very nice area. Edmonton did not do that in the past and it showed. Buying essentially gifting Katz and arena they got him to pour in hundreds of millions (over a billion to be exact) of private funds into an incredible downtown project and one of biggest revitalizations in North America today.

It would have been better for him to pay the arena himself, but by building that arena they kicked off something truly amazing. Calgary alreayd has an incredible downtown, CalgaryNext is more of a luxury play thing for the owners
Calgary's West Village is in need of revitilization though. The gateway to downtown from the mountains is right though an industrial looking contaminated **** hole along the river. This is pretty much the only opportunity to spruce that area up.

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06-15-2017, 09:19 AM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
Exactly. Arenas have spin-off investment that a library doesnt.
Can't be repeated enough that there is this development being built around the library (hotel, condos, National Music Centre, retaurants, amenities, etc.) while the area around the Saddledome has remained barren for 30+ years.

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Calgary's West Village is in need of revitilization though. The gateway to downtown from the mountains is right though an industrial looking contaminated **** hole along the river. This is pretty much the only opportunity to spruce that area up.
Not at the expense of the East Village and Victoria Park revitalization however, which is why the city didn't want it there, and told CSEC as much.

CalgaryNEXT represented an opportunity to cover the area up, not spruce it up.

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06-18-2017, 04:51 AM
  #554
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This is why I'm glad that I don't live in an NHL market.

Don't need to worry about my tax dollars being wasted on a new arena for a lucrative business. That money can be better spent on transit, infrastructure, community involvement, etc.

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06-20-2017, 06:40 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
Can't be repeated enough that there is this development being built around the library (hotel, condos, National Music Centre, retaurants, amenities, etc.) while the area around the Saddledome has remained barren for 30+ years.



Not at the expense of the East Village and Victoria Park revitalization however, which is why the city didn't want it there, and told CSEC as much.

CalgaryNEXT represented an opportunity to cover the area up, not spruce it up.
Yeah, the library is part of the East Village development. The east village development isnt due to the library. Up in Edmonton, however, the Ice district development is due to the arena development.

But regardless, I just wish people would ask the question about the West Village contamination - as CalgaryNext is likely the only way its going to get cleaned up, are people ok with just continuing to ignore the problem. If the answer is yes, thats fine. I just wish someone would straight up ask city council. I'd like to hear someone say it.

And thats not to mention the 1.5B Crowchild and Bow Trail etc upgrades that were just approved. Hmmm, now if only there was a possible arena development there in that same vicinity in order to benefit from some infrastructure cost sharing. And just think - a new freeway that close to the arena. Now doesnt that sound better than a bunch of inner-city streets that get jammed up every game day?

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06-20-2017, 07:20 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by viper0220 View Post
Not in a million years, we would probably pick the Winnipeg Jets


It looks like, it is looking like they will move:

Dan McGarvey‏ @DanMcGarvey
Here at the Ranchmen's Club in #yyc listening to @Burkie2020 talk the future of the NHL and Canadian teams competing with US teams. #nhl

Dan McGarvey‏ @DanMcGarvey
On the topic of a new arena for #yyc Brian Burke just said Calgary Next is still "very much alive." #flames

Dan McGarvey‏ @DanMcGarvey
Burke says he's optimistic a deal on a new arena for #yyc will be reached, and in the near future. #flames #nhl

Dan McGarvey‏ @DanMcGarvey
Burke says "I'm just as puzzled as you are," when asked why Edmonton can get a new arena and we can't. #yyc #flames #nhl

CTV - Chris Epp‏Verified account @CTVchrisepp
Brian Burke speaking to Cdn. Club. Says when Flames proposed Calgary Next, he's surprised city didn't say thank you

CTV - Chris Epp‏Verified account @CTVchrisepp
Burke says he doesn't think a group of taxpayers in one area is smarter than those in another, they just choose differently.

CTV - Chris Epp‏Verified account @CTVchrisepp
He's referring to taxpayer funded facilities in Edm and Wpg among others. Doesn't know why our city leaders thinks they're smarter then them

CTV - Chris Epp‏Verified account @CTVchrisepp
Ok. Brian Burke just said the thing that the Flames said they wouldn't say. Told season ticket holder the Flames could leave w/o new rink.

CTV - Chris Epp‏Verified account @CTVchrisepp
Burke also says Flames would be able find a place to relocate to.

Dan McGarvey @DanMcGarvey
Burke gets into it with guest on threatening to take the #flames out of Calgary. Says Quebec is one place they could go. #yyc #nhl

The Irony is that Alberta payed for the new arena in Quebec City through Provincial Equalization Payments.
Lmao what...do you even know what the bolded is? Quebec doesn't just get handed a blank cheque...you can actually go online and see where those transfers went

And it's paid* not payed.

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06-20-2017, 07:34 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
Can't be repeated enough that there is this development being built around the library (hotel, condos, National Music Centre, retaurants, amenities, etc.) while the area around the Saddledome has remained barren for 30+ years.



Not at the expense of the East Village and Victoria Park revitalization however, which is why the city didn't want it there, and told CSEC as much.

CalgaryNEXT represented an opportunity to cover the area up, not spruce it up.
Isn't the ground around the arena contaminated? Or am I thinking of something else?

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06-20-2017, 11:23 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by ottawa View Post
Lmao what...do you even know what the bolded is? Quebec doesn't just get handed a blank cheque...you can actually go online and see where those transfers went

And it's paid* not payed.
Equalization payments are extremely misunderstood in the west.

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06-20-2017, 11:24 PM
  #559
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Isn't the ground around the arena contaminated? Or am I thinking of something else?
That was the land where they first tried to get a new arena.

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06-21-2017, 12:50 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
Yeah, the library is part of the East Village development. The east village development isnt due to the library. Up in Edmonton, however, the Ice district development is due to the arena development.

But regardless, I just wish people would ask the question about the West Village contamination - as CalgaryNext is likely the only way its going to get cleaned up, are people ok with just continuing to ignore the problem. If the answer is yes, thats fine. I just wish someone would straight up ask city council. I'd like to hear someone say it.

And thats not to mention the 1.5B Crowchild and Bow Trail etc upgrades that were just approved. Hmmm, now if only there was a possible arena development there in that same vicinity in order to benefit from some infrastructure cost sharing. And just think - a new freeway that close to the arena. Now doesnt that sound better than a bunch of inner-city streets that get jammed up every game day?
Building arenas around freeways is taking things back to 70s-80s era urban design, you're essentially saying that that land should go through decontamination for the sake of building a parking lot. The West Village location doesn't line up with the current focus on the East Village or with the Green Line, both of which line up very well with the Vic Park site. The point is to get LESS personal vehicle traffic clogging things up in the first place, not openly promote even more to turn up.

Why you think this is the one and only opportunity for the area to be cleaned up is ridiculous and has nothing of substance behind it. Its no small consideration that Calgary is looking at an Olympics bid right now - an athletes village with supporting urban-living infrastructure that can be used as the foundation for an actual neighbourhood is a far better long term sustainable option for using the land, and that's just off the top of my head.

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06-21-2017, 01:09 AM
  #561
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Equalization payments are extremely misunderstood in the west.
No they aren't.

Just because we give money to Ottawa and then they write the cheque to Quebec people act like it wasn't really Alberta handing over the money. Just a ridiculous notion.

We get a massive net deficit of service for taxes and they get a massive surplus of service for taxes. Indirectly we've been paying for their **** for 40 years.

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06-21-2017, 02:53 AM
  #562
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We need to be careful here because of politics.

As an American I fully understand there is a great deal of resentment in Western Canada towards the 'Centre of the Universe in Toronto' and Quebec Province.

What I would like to know is how much financial support did Edmonton get from Ottawa for the new arena?

Downtown Edmonton was decaying badly after the West Edmonton Mall was built and the new arena development seems to be turning that around. The primary problem with the Saddledome is how few seats are located in the lower bowl.

Can the unthinkable happen and Calgary ownership moves the franchise? Google Walter O'Malley and Art Modell. Francophone local TV money would be far more lucrative than what the Flames can generate in Alberta because of population numbers. Quebec City is a much smaller market than Calgary but it would have wide acceptance in the entire province including the Île de Montréal.

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06-21-2017, 03:40 AM
  #563
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Downtown Edmonton was decaying badly after the West Edmonton Mall was built and the new arena development seems to be turning that around. The primary problem with the Saddledome is how few seats are located in the lower bowl.
Decaying? Maybe on the eastern edge of the downtown area, but that didn't stop spending on the Windspear Centre, new art gallery, shopping redevelopment, Shaw Conference redevelopment etc.

The downtown core was never in decay (based on your standards) but was far more in a static situation. Macewan University has used its grant of the old rail-yards to build up its downtown campus and move away from its satellite system. YMCA has now a massive rec facility in the downtown core and the western edge of downtown has expanded in development, even with the increased costs for land.

The only area had not been developed was the southern edge of the rail-yards, and they only removed the rest of the rail in 2000/01. Office towers were restricted until a couple of years ago when the City Centre Airport was closed (downtown is right in the approach to the airport).

With all the old restrictions out of the way, there was already pressure to have more in the remaining lands than just a small casino. Katz's plans would inevitably come to fruition, and the council was being rational.

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06-21-2017, 05:47 AM
  #564
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No they aren't.

Just because we give money to Ottawa and then they write the cheque to Quebec people act like it wasn't really Alberta handing over the money. Just a ridiculous notion.

We get a massive net deficit of service for taxes and they get a massive surplus of service for taxes. Indirectly we've been paying for their **** for 40 years.
It's important to see the bigger picture and what Canada is all about. Who paid for Upper Canada's massive debt in 1840 ? Who paid for the purchase of Rupert's Land from the Hudson Bay Company?
Who subsidised the western railways? The economic growth of Western Canada would not have been possible without all of those investments. People are grateful . And we will gladly help in the distant future when all the oil money is gone. And The Flames will get a new arena.

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06-21-2017, 12:55 PM
  #565
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And we will gladly help in the distant future when all the oil money is gone.
When our province was literally burning down the government you elected onto us refused immediate high-quality help from around the world so it could pat itself on the back for being progressive enough to hire an incompetent South African crew that complained about pay before putting in a single day of work. The East won't even properly help us in legitimate emergencies, why should we expect you to help us for anything else? Now that the value of our mineral wealth has taken a dip we're regarded as useless and backwards. We're nothing more than a colony to you, if you really want to help give us the ability to move and sell our product to overseas markets.

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