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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Flames will move without a new Arena

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Old
04-01-2017, 01:09 PM
  #76
SaintMorose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lomiller1 View Post
There is public money and there is taxpayer money. MTS Center was built with public money in the form of low interest loans and loan gaurentees, essentially giving TNSE access to Government lending rates as opposed to the rates they would have paid borrowing on their own. This money was fully repaid by the end of 2009 so no actual taxpayer money was used.

There was also (and still is) public money generated by the MTS Center itself that is handed back over to TNSE. This is mainly the entertainment tax collected on events at MTS Center and VLT's run by TNSE at an adjacent facility. Manitoba hasn't legalize gambling, so the proceeds from the VLT's are public money but the Provence then transfers it back in the form of a grant. Until the loans were repaid this money was kept by the Provence and counted as loan repayment instead.

So MTS center was built with public money but no taxpayer money, nor any money not generated by the MTS center was involved. I don't know enough about the Edmonton/Quebec deals or what the Flames are asking for but given the $1 billion number I would guess it's probably taxpayer money involved.
In CalgaryNEXT
The Flames have asked for the same deal on low interest loans to be paid back to the city with ticket revenue.
The Flames want to combine the new rink with the football stadium and a field house that would be owned by this city, so they've asked that the $200M raised for that field house by the city be used in the project.
The Flames also want provincial revitalization money to pay for the project.

The big issue is the cost of cleaning up West village which is heavily polluted and has been for over 50 years. The Flames want the city to go after the company responsible and have them + the city pay to clean up the pollution and not associate that expense with the Flames responsibilities in the project and the city has no desire to spend money on cleaning that area up to benefit a sports team.

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Old
04-01-2017, 01:22 PM
  #77
dookers9
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Quebec City has a new building...this could get interesting...
About as interesting as watching paint dry.

There is NO way the Flames are moving to Quebec. There is far too much invested in divisional rivalry, conference consistency, and attendance in Calgary.

All this is the exact pawn move that occurred when Katz wasn't seeing things move fast enough in Edmonton re: a new arena. King will "coincidentally" fly off to meet with Seattle representatives, maybe to Saskatoon (lol) in an attempt at ruffling feathers, but this deal will get done. Might take a meeting with Betts in a Manhattan skyscraper, but it'll happen.

Much to the chagrin of the taxpayers...but that's the way it's done nowadays. Sure, it's a "building for millionaires", but ultimately, as Rogers has demonstrated in Edmonton already, it's a huge civic boost.

The only question is where? The previously proposed spot will apparently cost far more than initially suggested given the creosote issue, let alone the environmental risk.

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04-01-2017, 01:51 PM
  #78
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If the team is sold and relocates to Quebec, they'll be playing in Western Conference.

There is already an imbalance between the conferences. (Still shy one team in west after addition of Vegas.)

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04-01-2017, 01:59 PM
  #79
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Can't the Flames owners build their own building?

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04-01-2017, 02:07 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Yeah I can't imagine MLSE asking for money to build a rink, they make enough money, especially now that they are owned by Bell/Rogers. Hopefully when the time comes to make another rink, taxpayers aren't footing the bill.
Pagging BMO Field!!!
Pagging BMO Field!!!

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04-01-2017, 02:11 PM
  #81
mouser
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What is the current state of the Flames lease? Searches show it expired in 2014, but I couldn't find any details on a renewal agreement.

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04-01-2017, 02:12 PM
  #82
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They won't move. They are just trying to panic the Flames fans into pressuring their municipal officials to get the best possible deal for the owners.

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04-01-2017, 02:15 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoyleG View Post
Pagging BMO Field!!!
Pagging BMO Field!!!
BMO expansion was largely public money.

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04-01-2017, 02:19 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Yeah I can't imagine MLSE asking for money to build a rink, they make enough money, especially now that they are owned by Bell/Rogers. Hopefully when the time comes to make another rink, taxpayers aren't footing the bill.

MLSE could never play the "we're gonna move the team" card

A Toronto NHL franchise is a license to print money and they'd get a big fat **** off from the city

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04-01-2017, 02:21 PM
  #85
Butch 19
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
The city is going to cave sooner or later. Sad that they need taxpayer money to get this done. Oilers threatened and got their way as well.

Is there any team in the league that has built their rink without taxpayer money? I'd love to know the list.
Staples Center

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04-01-2017, 02:25 PM
  #86
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Just to add but MTS also gets handled differently when it comes to property taxes. Their rate applied to it is different. My house has a mill rate applied to I think 45% of the house, while MTS has a lower rate. (I dont know the rate tho)

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04-01-2017, 02:31 PM
  #87
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i'm tired of owners holding cities hostage to build them new arenas for their team.

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04-01-2017, 02:31 PM
  #88
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There's is zero chance of the team moving: just trying to suck in more public money for the new arena

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04-01-2017, 02:32 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
considering the players get 50% of all revenues generated by the new building... and a new building wouldn't be necessary if the players weren't collecting 70 million dollars...

and how players making 70 million could probably chip in for a new building that they benefit from easier than tax payers could...

I say the line has to get drawn... teams need to be told no. I mean everyone benefits from a new park,.,, better police... better roads... heck even a big strip club will draw some tourists and economic development

tax dollars don't need to be going to these unnecessary arenas.

the only logic that they need a building... is that everyone else has one... but why? why does everyone else have one? this logic is circular reasoning

if the league can afford 70 million dollar payrolls they can also afford to build their own arena. Walmart builds its own building... mom and pop build their own building... if theres enough money to support a business, let it survive on its own

Just a minor nit with the bold section. The players only collect 50% of Hockey Related Revenues, which is clearly defined between the NHL and PA. Arenas generate a lot of non-hockey revenue (other sports, concerts, etc.), so the players would not get anything beyond the HRR share.

The team would ask for a new arena every 2-3 decades because that's what teams do, cap or no cap.

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04-01-2017, 02:36 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
What is the current state of the Flames lease? Searches show it expired in 2014, but I couldn't find any details on a renewal agreement.
Only thing I could find is a running assumption that its for 5-9 years. Trying to coincide with the 2026 Olympic Host aspirations. Speaking of which, could all this back-and-forth being ramped up be in conjunction with the November 2017 bid submission timeline? Found a ML Lease Summary (attached) showing what was paid in to the construction and the Lease fees

Quote:
TYPE OF FINANCING: The City of Calgary and the Alberta Province each contributed US $31.5 million, the federal government contributed US $29.7 million and the 1988 Olympic Organizing Committee provided US $5 million.
Quote:
PAYMENT/EXPENSES RENT: Saddledome Foundation will pay to the City of Calgary $1.00 annually, to be paid June 1st. Sect. 3(1), pg. 2

The Calgary Flames will pay to Saddledome Foundation for use of the facility:
1995 1999: $600,000 annually
2000 2014: $750,000 annually, plus an additional amount, determined by an additional sum determined by: x = ($750,000 x a/b) - $750,000, where:
x = the amount
a = the Base Price Index for the year immediately preceding the year in respect of which the amount is required to be paid
b = the Base Price Index for the year 1995. Sect. 12, pg. 56

Saddledome Foundation will distribute 33 1/3 % to the City on the trust condition that the same will be used for the construction and maintenance of facilities used for, and the support of operation of, amateur sports in the City of Calgary; 33 1/3 % to the Calgary Olympic Development Association (CODA); and 33 1/3 % to Hockey Canada
Attached Files
File Type: pdf lease-summary-calgary-flames.pdf‎ (164.0 KB, 0 views)

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04-01-2017, 02:37 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by jason2020 View Post
Ottawa and Toronto.
This is incorrect. Ottawa received a loan from the province so it was not 100% privately financed.

http://www.doniveson.ca/wp-content/u...na-Funding.pdf

Arenas in Canada that were 100% privately financed are in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.

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04-01-2017, 02:43 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf357 View Post
Calgary Flames CEO states the Flames will move without a new Arena
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/c...next-1.4050989
He did not say they will move without an arena. He said they would not threaten to leave, they would just leave because they do not want to be in a place they are not wanted. Right now the biggest problem is a Mayor that is Trump-esque (not politically, but the way he loves the sound of his own voice), Nenshi is more worried about a good soundbite than actually trying to reach an agreement.

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04-01-2017, 03:02 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf357 View Post
Calgary Flames CEO states the Flames will move without a new Arena
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/c...next-1.4050989
Oilers said the same thing

these threats are getting old

Flames will have to do the same thing the oilers did to build their new arena--last year flames said that they would not put as much money in as the oilers did

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04-01-2017, 03:04 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
This is incorrect. Ottawa received a loan from the province so it was not 100% privately financed.

http://www.doniveson.ca/wp-content/u...na-Funding.pdf

Arenas in Canada that were 100% privately financed are in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.
If you count in loans etc then take Toronto they got a sweet heart deal for the land they only paid $1 which is equal to a loan.

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04-01-2017, 03:04 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
To where?
Glendale Arizona would have an available arena if the Clowns leave town.

Not too many other destinations come to mind.

(I do hope you realize I'm only kidding!)

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04-01-2017, 03:15 PM
  #96
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According to Forbes the Flames made 18 million dollars last year...even with a low canadian dollar and missing the playoffs. This team isnt going anywhere.

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04-01-2017, 03:22 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by sharkhawk View Post
The United Center was built by the Hawks and Bulls. They got tax breaks but no public money was used.
Tax breaks are public money. Who do you think has to make up the shortfall from the reduced revenue?

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Old
04-01-2017, 03:24 PM
  #98
pepty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
This is incorrect. Ottawa received a loan from the province so it was not 100% privately financed.

http://www.doniveson.ca/wp-content/u...na-Funding.pdf

Arenas in Canada that were 100% privately financed are in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.
MLSE has been expert in "partnering" with government of various levels for many of their endeavors, see BMO field.

Of course when it comes to taxpayer ripoffs nothing in Canada even comes close to the Skydome boondoggle .

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04-01-2017, 03:25 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by objectiveposter View Post
According to Forbes the Flames made 18 million dollars last year...even with a low canadian dollar and missing the playoffs. This team isnt going anywhere.
If the Flames carry through with the threat--24 hours after they leave a struggling US team will move into the city--take the same deal the oilers made and that will be that

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Old
04-01-2017, 03:28 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Guardian17 View Post
Can't the Flames owners build their own building?
The answer is yes the rich billionaire owners have the resources to do it - they just don't want to. They want money for nothing as the song says. They want all of the benefit with little or no risk.

If we really did live in a capitalist system (Which we don't) then they'd be expected to take the risk, pay for everything and either reap the profits or suck up the losses.

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