HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Marc Bergevin - The Crystal Ball Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-07-2017, 03:41 PM
  #26
Doc McKenna
Registered User
 
Doc McKenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
What's disingenuous is inventing an upside for Eller that has never existed, not here, not in Washington, and then blaming the Habs org because this phantom upside never materialized. He was a solid 3rd-line C, nothing more. Citing his stats in juniors is meaningless.




I agree with you about Plekanec. Bergevin's timing sucked and he bought the stock at its highest. As for the rest... you lost me when you built a shrine to Gauthier.
So failing to see upside up till DDs extension and the year eller puts up 30 in 46 games and is out best forward in the playoffs=no upside 3rd C..well good thing we have patches and pleks and DD all these years to make sure our 3rd C was put in his place. Dude has potential but I honestly feel MT and his coaching style of destroying people mentally had a lot to do with it. Eller had to see a psychiatrist, ever wonder if its because Michel bouncer for life thug Therrien mind ****ed him and many other players.

But don't take my word, just ask Terry Ryan. Or does he not count?

Doc McKenna is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 04:31 PM
  #27
digmor crusher
Registered User
 
digmor crusher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,025
vCash: 500
Eller has 12 goals and 13 assists this year, he has no upside, what you see is what you get, a 25-30 point no. 3 center. It actually amazes me that people on here are still talking about him, who cares, he's gone, get over it.

As far as Ryan goes, its one guys opinion, he may be right, he may be wrong, he may have a bias. Probably doesn't like Therrien so he bashed him, to me one person's opinion on anything is irrelevant as to how I am going to form an educated thought on any subject. Need a much bigger sample size.

digmor crusher is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 04:43 PM
  #28
G0bias
Registered User
 
G0bias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,257
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post
Eller has 12 goals and 13 assists this year, he has no upside, what you see is what you get, a 25-30 point no. 3 center. It actually amazes me that people on here are still talking about him, who cares, he's gone, get over it.

As far as Ryan goes, its one guys opinion, he may be right, he may be wrong, he may have a bias. Probably doesn't like Therrien so he bashed him, to me one person's opinion on anything is irrelevant as to how I am going to form an educated thought on any subject. Need a much bigger sample size.
Actually a lot of guys have come out and criticized him for a coach who was still active.
Mark Recchi this season talked about how Therrien bullied and intimated young players to a point they were puking before games and basically he always disrespected him for how he treated the younger guys.

If a player ended in MT's doghouse, that was it. There was no coming out of it. I don't doubt for a second it hindered Eller during his developing years, as we've also seen it with Galchenyuk and Beaulieu.


Last edited by G0bias: 04-07-2017 at 04:56 PM.
G0bias is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 04:54 PM
  #29
scrubadam
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 6,499
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
So failing to see upside up till DDs extension and the year eller puts up 30 in 46 games and is out best forward in the playoffs=no upside 3rd C..well good thing we have patches and pleks and DD all these years to make sure our 3rd C was put in his place. Dude has potential but I honestly feel MT and his coaching style of destroying people mentally had a lot to do with it. Eller had to see a psychiatrist, ever wonder if its because Michel bouncer for life thug Therrien mind ****ed him and many other players.

But don't take my word, just ask Terry Ryan. Or does he not count?
Maybe Eller had upside, but he went on to prove after that there was nothing else there and it has nothing to do with MT or DD. Eller is a 25 point guy. Thats how many points he will have this year playing in Wash with a different coach. He never forced his coaches hand like Danault does/did.

scrubadam is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 05:04 PM
  #30
G0bias
Registered User
 
G0bias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,257
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Maybe Eller had upside, but he went on to prove after that there was nothing else there and it has nothing to do with MT or DD. Eller is a 25 point guy. Thats how many points he will have this year playing in Wash with a different coach. He never forced his coaches hand like Danault does/did.
He did in 12-13. Arguably more so than Danault as he did it between two rookies and not two star forwards. And then proved he could do it in the playoffs more than once.

Remember this was the guy MT benched after his first game as head coach. The writing was on the wall.

If Danault plays the entirety of the season on the third line, how much do you think he gets? That's right 25-30pts, just like Eller. And I like the kid. I'm glad we have him. Just shows you the double standards some have with certain players.


Last edited by G0bias: 04-07-2017 at 05:25 PM.
G0bias is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 05:30 PM
  #31
scrubadam
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 6,499
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by G0bias View Post
He did in 12-13. Arguably more so than Danault as he did it between two rookies and not two star forwards. And then proved he could do it in the playoffs more than once.

Remember this was the guy MT benched after his first game as head coach. The writing was on the wall.

If Danault plays the entirety of the season on the third line, how much do you think he gets? That's right 25-30pts, just like Eller. And I like the kid. I'm glad we have him. Just shows you the double standards some have with certain players.
How long are we going to refer to Ellers one decent season; a shortened lock out one. Yakupov also had a great year that year. Guess what means nothing. Every other year Eller couldn't break 30 points and the same this year. He has the tools but no toolbox as they say.

And its a fallacy to say what Danault would of done on the 3rd line, because he got to stay on the 1st line due to forcing the coaches hand. and if over the next 3 years Danault stays on the 3rd line and gets 25-30 points then I will say thats the player he is and not make excuses for him and blame it on CJ or anyone else.

And the double standard is more that Eller was given tons of rope to "prove himself" as a top 6 but Danault at the same age when Eller was still waiting to explode is destined to be a 3rd liner. I don't know what Danault will do next year but if we could spend 4 years waiting for Eller to not materialize don't see a reason we can't wait another year or 2 for Danault.

scrubadam is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 06:30 PM
  #32
Kenny Powders
Registered User
 
Kenny Powders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Laval
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,675
vCash: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by G0bias View Post
He did in 12-13. Arguably more so than Danault as he did it between two rookies and not two star forwards. And then proved he could do it in the playoffs more than once.

Remember this was the guy MT benched after his first game as head coach. The writing was on the wall.

If Danault plays the entirety of the season on the third line, how much do you think he gets? That's right 25-30pts, just like Eller. And I like the kid. I'm glad we have him. Just shows you the double standards some have with certain players.
Danault is way more involved in the play than Eller and he's way more predictable to coach than Eller.

Kenny Powders is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 07:03 PM
  #33
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 33,148
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
How long are we going to refer to Ellers one decent season; a shortened lock out one. Yakupov also had a great year that year. Guess what means nothing. Every other year Eller couldn't break 30 points and the same this year. He has the tools but no toolbox as they say.
Because people still argue against it. Eller had upside, you're right. That's why he was picked 13th overall. After that, we saw steady improvement from him, not just in his play but his production as well. He went from 17pts to 28 to 30 in 46.
Steady production. At that point, he was getting more offensive opportunities.
He got a bit of it the following season but Therrien quickly changed that and just focused on him as a depth center.
By the end of the year though, we added depth, and he lit it up in the POs along side capable offensive players. That doesn't mean it would have lasted all year, but again, it's upside.

To me Eller is a clear case of how a coach can mess up the development of a player.
I don't see how anybody debates this. Even if you want to believe Eller would have become nothing more than he is today, this coach clearly identified his centers.
It was DD as the offensive go to guy, Plekanec as his reliable all situation guy, and Eller as the depth checking line center.
That's how they were used.

If Danault was kept on the 3rd or 4th line for 2 extra years, that's all he'd become.
Some guys might be able to pierce through that with a lot of resiliency, they just battle so much they give their coach no choice. Not every player is like that though and it doesn't mean that if you're not, you won't reach the top 6.

Eller and Galchenyuk are two guys completely mishandled by Therrien.

Kriss E is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 07:14 PM
  #34
scrubadam
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 6,499
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Because people still argue against it. Eller had upside, you're right. That's why he was picked 13th overall. After that, we saw steady improvement from him, not just in his play but his production as well. He went from 17pts to 28 to 30 in 46.
Steady production. At that point, he was getting more offensive opportunities.
He got a bit of it the following season but Therrien quickly changed that and just focused on him as a depth center.
By the end of the year though, we added depth, and he lit it up in the POs along side capable offensive players. That doesn't mean it would have lasted all year, but again, it's upside.

To me Eller is a clear case of how a coach can mess up the development of a player.
I don't see how anybody debates this. Even if you want to believe Eller would have become nothing more than he is today, this coach clearly identified his centers.
It was DD as the offensive go to guy, Plekanec as his reliable all situation guy, and Eller as the depth checking line center.
That's how they were used.

If Danault was kept on the 3rd or 4th line for 2 extra years, that's all he'd become.
Some guys might be able to pierce through that with a lot of resiliency, they just battle so much they give their coach no choice. Not every player is like that though and it doesn't mean that if you're not, you won't reach the top 6.

Eller and Galchenyuk are two guys completely mishandled by Therrien.
Fine if I say MT mishandled Eller and stunted his development then lets give MT credit for guys from that same draft that had better careers.

End of the day Eller never fulfilled his potential here outside of one lockout season. That was a strange year with some players having played and others coming in cold. Either way he never got 30 points again and this year away from MT and on one of the most offensive teams in the league he still only has his 25 points or so.

So Danault is cheaper and younger and maybe he will fulfill his potential without MT here. Danault has established himself as a top 6 C this year. Question is can he continue that next year and grow his game even more.

Past is in the past. Danault IMO has a better chance of being better than Eller and I think this season is better than Ellers lockout year.

scrubadam is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 07:25 PM
  #35
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 42,241
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Fine if I say MT mishandled Eller and stunted his development then lets give MT credit for guys from that same draft that had better careers.
Yeah, what a great job he did with Desharnais...

__________________
- 40,000 & counting...
Lafleurs Guy is online now  
Old
04-07-2017, 08:04 PM
  #36
Lshap
Moderator
 
Lshap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,145
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
So failing to see upside up till DDs extension and the year eller puts up 30 in 46 games and is out best forward in the playoffs=no upside 3rd C..well good thing we have patches and pleks and DD all these years to make sure our 3rd C was put in his place. Dude has potential but I honestly feel MT and his coaching style of destroying people mentally had a lot to do with it. Eller had to see a psychiatrist, ever wonder if its because Michel bouncer for life thug Therrien mind ****ed him and many other players.

But don't take my word, just ask Terry Ryan. Or does he not count?
If you're interested in real psychological abuse, read about Frank Mahovlich when he played for the Leafs under Punch Imlach. By comparison, today's modern book of bad-coaching includes 'Mishandling' and 'not trusting', which are *****cat soft love-taps compared to what yesterday's players had to endure. Any player who is destroyed mentally by that has no business being in the NHL. Eller was on the same roster as 20+ other guys; all of whom survived the scourge of Therrien and somehow managed to soldier on. Eller was never a mentally-abused player; he's a decent 3rd-line C who's limited by his own wonky vision and IQ. One good playoff run does not make him a playoff beast, anymore than one 4-goal game makes him a 40-goal scorer.

Lshap is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 08:19 PM
  #37
Andrei79
Registered User
 
Andrei79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post

Eller and Galchenyuk are two guys completely mishandled by Therrien.
Pretty much.

Properly developped Eller + Galchenyuk and Danault sounds a lot better than what we have right now.

Andrei79 is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 08:21 PM
  #38
Andrei79
Registered User
 
Andrei79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
So failing to see upside up till DDs extension and the year eller puts up 30 in 46 games and is out best forward in the playoffs=no upside 3rd C..well good thing we have patches and pleks and DD all these years to make sure our 3rd C was put in his place. Dude has potential but I honestly feel MT and his coaching style of destroying people mentally had a lot to do with it. Eller had to see a psychiatrist, ever wonder if its because Michel bouncer for life thug Therrien mind ****ed him and many other players.

But don't take my word, just ask Terry Ryan. Or does he not count?
Didn't know that about Eller, got a link ? Not that I don't think Therrien didn't bully him (just look at 24CH and how he treats Subban ON camera), but I never heard it and couldn't find a link.

Nevermind, found it, it was a sports psychologist (I'm a psychiatrist, and we're doctors, we deal with different issues than psychologists) .

Andrei79 is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 08:22 PM
  #39
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 42,241
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
If you're interested in real psychological abuse, read about Frank Mahovlich when he played for the Leafs under Punch Imlach. By comparison, today's modern book of bad-coaching includes 'Mishandling' and 'not trusting', which are *****cat soft love-taps compared to what yesterday's players had to endure. Any player who is destroyed mentally by that has no business being in the NHL. Eller was on the same roster as 20+ other guys; all of whom survived the scourge of Therrien and somehow managed to soldier on. Eller was never a mentally-abused player; he's a decent 3rd-line C who's limited by his own wonky vision and IQ. One good playoff run does not make him a playoff beast, anymore than one 4-goal game makes him a 40-goal scorer.
Yup, disgusting the power coaches had back then.

Lafleurs Guy is online now  
Old
04-07-2017, 08:26 PM
  #40
Andrei79
Registered User
 
Andrei79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,473
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
If you're interested in real psychological abuse, read about Frank Mahovlich when he played for the Leafs under Punch Imlach. By comparison, today's modern book of bad-coaching includes 'Mishandling' and 'not trusting', which are *****cat soft love-taps compared to what yesterday's players had to endure. Any player who is destroyed mentally by that has no business being in the NHL. Eller was on the same roster as 20+ other guys; all of whom survived the scourge of Therrien and somehow managed to soldier on. Eller was never a mentally-abused player; he's a decent 3rd-line C who's limited by his own wonky vision and IQ. One good playoff run does not make him a playoff beast, anymore than one 4-goal game makes him a 40-goal scorer.
How's what happened 50 years ago relevant though ? Times change, everything surrounding hockey has actually. That was common and almost expected back then, players came from a completely different background. Why not compare Eller to a spartan or a reaver while we're at it. The guy was targetted by a guy who's known as a bully during years where he needed development.

Andrei79 is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 08:28 PM
  #41
Doc McKenna
Registered User
 
Doc McKenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
Danault is way more involved in the play than Eller and he's way more predictable to coach than Eller.
Or MT stupid chip and chase system might be why he played that way.

Doc McKenna is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 08:33 PM
  #42
Doc McKenna
Registered User
 
Doc McKenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
If you're interested in real psychological abuse, read about Frank Mahovlich when he played for the Leafs under Punch Imlach. By comparison, today's modern book of bad-coaching includes 'Mishandling' and 'not trusting', which are *****cat soft love-taps compared to what yesterday's players had to endure. Any player who is destroyed mentally by that has no business being in the NHL. Eller was on the same roster as 20+ other guys; all of whom survived the scourge of Therrien and somehow managed to soldier on. Eller was never a mentally-abused player; he's a decent 3rd-line C who's limited by his own wonky vision and IQ. One good playoff run does not make him a playoff beast, anymore than one 4-goal game makes him a 40-goal scorer.
KK good to know pk and eller had the sametreatment as cube and dd. Weird that your perception is nothing like reality.

Doc McKenna is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 09:18 PM
  #43
scrubadam
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 6,499
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yeah, what a great job he did with Desharnais...
DD was drafted in 2007? News to me.

scrubadam is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 09:46 PM
  #44
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,805
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
What's disingenuous is inventing an upside for Eller that has never existed, not here, not in Washington, and then blaming the Habs org because this phantom upside never materialized. He was a solid 3rd-line C, nothing more. Citing his stats in juniors is meaningless.
One of the most annoying things people do here is invent projections than blame others when it's not true.

Apparently Eller was supposed to be a two-way 50-60 point C. Galchenyuk was supposed to be a franchise C, etc...

My god, we're so lucky to have all these great centers under our watch.

It's a tough league, these guys do not grow on trees. It's nice to be optimistic but blaming others because your projection was generous is pushing it.

I really liked Ben Maxwell in the past and I thought he'd be a quality NHLer. I was wrong, it's not the coaches fault. It's not the GMs fault. He just wasn't good enough.

LyricalLyricist is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 09:52 PM
  #45
PaulD
Registered User
 
PaulD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Country: Scotland
Posts: 4,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post
Eller has 12 goals and 13 assists this year, he has no upside, what you see is what you get, a 25-30 point no. 3 center. It actually amazes me that people on here are still talking about him, who cares, he's gone, get over it.

As far as Ryan goes, its one guys opinion, he may be right, he may be wrong, he may have a bias. Probably doesn't like Therrien so he bashed him, to me one person's opinion on anything is irrelevant as to how I am going to form an educated thought on any subject. Need a much bigger sample size.
Yes because only one person has ever bashed Therrien.

Eler is a decent 3rd line center. Thats it. No matter who his coach is or what jersey he is wearing.

But that does not make Therrien any better. Eler had a bottom of the barrel coach for years....just like the other 20 guys per season did.

Thank God Price and the boys let it be known that it was time the baffoon of a coach was tossed over board.

PaulD is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 10:02 PM
  #46
PaulD
Registered User
 
PaulD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Country: Scotland
Posts: 4,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
One of the most annoying things people do here is invent projections than blame others when it's not true.

Apparently Eller was supposed to be a two-way 50-60 point C. Galchenyuk was supposed to be a franchise C, etc...

My god, we're so lucky to have all these great centers under our watch.

It's a tough league, these guys do not grow on trees. It's nice to be optimistic but blaming others because your projection was generous is pushing it.

I really liked Ben Maxwell in the past and I thought he'd be a quality NHLer. I was wrong, it's not the coaches fault. It's not the GMs fault. He just wasn't good enough.
I think what you are saying is that Eler was not as good as this guy thought he would be and he blamed the coach....and Maxwell was not as good as you thought he would be....and you blamed the player.

Both of you expected more from your guys. Your own over blown expectations maybe to blame for that.

Most habs fans know Therrien is not to blame for Eler.....just as nobody saw anything special in Maxwell.

But that's ok, your not being paid to scout. ( ;


Last edited by PaulD: 04-07-2017 at 10:08 PM.
PaulD is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 10:15 PM
  #47
nhlfan9191
Registered User
 
nhlfan9191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,927
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Fine if I say MT mishandled Eller and stunted his development then lets give MT credit for guys from that same draft that had better careers.

End of the day Eller never fulfilled his potential here outside of one lockout season. That was a strange year with some players having played and others coming in cold. Either way he never got 30 points again and this year away from MT and on one of the most offensive teams in the league he still only has his 25 points or so.

So Danault is cheaper and younger and maybe he will fulfill his potential without MT here. Danault has established himself as a top 6 C this year. Question is can he continue that next year and grow his game even more.

Past is in the past. Danault IMO has a better chance of being better than Eller and I think this season is better than Ellers lockout year.
Danault hasn't established anything. Sam Gagner put up as many points in mulitple seasons, does that mean he established he was a "top 6" center. This team needs better centres period. Danault shouldn't be in the top 6 and Julien doesn't have much of a choice right now.

nhlfan9191 is online now  
Old
04-07-2017, 10:33 PM
  #48
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,805
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulD View Post
I think what you are saying is that Eler was not as good as this guy thought he would be and he blamed the coach....and Maxwell was not as good as you thought he would be....and you blamed the player.

Both of you expected more from your guys. Your own over blown expectations maybe to blame for that.

Most habs fans know Therrien is not to blame for Eler.....just as nobody saw anything special in Maxwell.

But that's ok, your not being paid to scout. ( ;
Actually, I don't blame the player. I say I'm wrong instead of blaming everyone else for my own mistake.

LyricalLyricist is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 11:27 PM
  #49
bsl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Bergevin said that Eller was expendable because they have Danault now.

Last year it seemed like a ridiculous comment and we widely panned him for it, but it does appear sensible now.

Danault vs Eller reminds me of a 1990s-era NASA slogan:
If NASA had idiocy like this in the sixties no way they get to the moon. Engineers then. The corporate bull****ter types arrived too late to ruin it.

bsl is offline  
Old
04-07-2017, 11:29 PM
  #50
digmor crusher
Registered User
 
digmor crusher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei79 View Post
Pretty much.

Properly developped Eller + Galchenyuk and Danault sounds a lot better than what we have right now.
Properly developed is a fallacy that keeps getting tossed around on here over and over. People will use that as an excuse when a player doesn't turn out as good as they expected. A coach cannot ruin a player for the most part, would happen very rarely, maybe 1 player a year in the league. Its all on the player, shouldn't matter how many games you play, who you play with or what position you play. Either you learn, adapt and get better or you don't. Take # 27 for example, 5 years in the league and he still doesn't have a clue, if you don't get it by 23 you never will, most of the best players in league history, such as Gretzky, had their best offensive years before age 24. Too easy to blame the coach when the player just doesn't get it.

digmor crusher is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:14 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.