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Marc Bergevin - The Crystal Ball Edition

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Old
04-07-2017, 11:38 PM
  #51
bsl
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Just wanted to reply to Kriss E. Sorry not sure how to quote from a closed thread

You say you don't put much importance on being in on it but at the same time you ask why he wouldn't TRY to secure a further run this year.

So I take umbrage with this because MB did TRY. Chide him for "failing" but don't say he doesn't try. He is always trying to improve the team and when the right deal is there he makes it. Fipula and Boyle would be habs today if not for Fipula(player) nixing the deal, and SY (GM) chosing TOR's pick over our pick. So don't say he wanted to hold onto picks thats why he didn't get additional players. He was willing to move his 2nd at minimum. He moved Ghetto. Its been repeated but the market was very limited this year.

So I can understand frustrations over not closing the deal this year, but don't act like MB was sitting with his thumb up his butt. If he had his druthers he would of added players to the team other GM's/Players didn't want to cooperate.

As far as saying nobody every argued this team was bad? Come on! Why is the debate so heated? Posters calling saying MB will go remember was one of the worst GM's in history. Posters predicting we will slide out of the playoffs, etc... I don't have an issue with even handed criticisim or discussion but its far from that.

If you would of asked most of the people who post against MB if we had a shot at the cup after the PK trade you think the response would be we are a Vanek/Vrbata away? I doubt it. Even before the deadline I saw the words we are not contenders over and over again. And if we are a Vanek/Vrbata away then MB has done a pretty good job. Not perfrect but good.

You also got your years mixed up. Murray/Parros was the same year as the ECF run. The following year we traded Briere for PAP. MB made that year a "transition year". He let go some older players which needed turnover. Now I can agree he didn't do enough to build on the ECF run. Years 3/4 were more status quo years for him. This year was a huge year and he really added a lot (along with a few pieces from last year that are paying off).

Anyways all this to say I get the frustrations that MB hasn't put us over the hump yet but it doesn't make him a bad GM. He has been a good GM here with good results just not the best. I would put him top 10 just like the team has been top 10 under him. If anyone is frustrated with not being a top 5 team/GM I get it.

If he wins a cup then I guess that changes everything. Hopefully this is the year.
He's had 5 years to find a good number 2 centre. Did not.
A lot less typing.

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04-08-2017, 12:36 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post
Properly developed is a fallacy that keeps getting tossed around on here over and over. People will use that as an excuse when a player doesn't turn out as good as they expected. A coach cannot ruin a player for the most part, would happen very rarely, maybe 1 player a year in the league. Its all on the player, shouldn't matter how many games you play, who you play with or what position you play. Either you learn, adapt and get better or you don't. Take # 27 for example, 5 years in the league and he still doesn't have a clue, if you don't get it by 23 you never will, most of the best players in league history, such as Gretzky, had their best offensive years before age 24. Too easy to blame the coach when the player just doesn't get it.
Exactly. Nothing else to say.

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04-08-2017, 03:45 AM
  #53
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Fine if I say MT mishandled Eller and stunted his development then lets give MT credit for guys from that same draft that had better careers.
Hmm..why? I never said every guy that failed is Therrien's fault, did I??
Am I blaming Therrien for Bournival? Thomas? DSP? And the list goes on.
I am specifically talking about Eller (and Galch).
You want to credit him for Patches? Gallagher? Go for it. I have no issues with that, although I know some people would say Max was already a 30G scorer.
In any event, has nothing to do with Eller.

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End of the day Eller never fulfilled his potential here outside of one lockout season. That was a strange year with some players having played and others coming in cold. Either way he never got 30 points again and this year away from MT and on one of the most offensive teams in the league he still only has his 25 points or so.
Again, this doesn't mean anything. We know Eller was steadily progressing, and improving his production, but Therrien favored DD in an offensive role. That's it.
We had DD, Plek, and Eller. Galchenyuk was also in the back with the assumption he would take over a top 2 center spot. So Eller was the 3rd wheel.
Maybe he wouldn't have amounted to more than his 30pt season anyways, I never denied this possibility as well. But I don't think he was used in an optimal way to develop his offense.

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So Danault is cheaper and younger and maybe he will fulfill his potential without MT here. Danault has established himself as a top 6 C this year. Question is can he continue that next year and grow his game even more.
Danault is not established, he put up 40pts, mostly playing with Patches. He didn't do much as the season started and he was used as Eller would, as a conventional checking center, but then got more offensive opportunities and he took advantage of that.
If we want him to pursue in that path, and improve his offensive game further, don't you agree he needs to stick to top 6 minutes playing with good wingers?
Well, Eller was flipflopped around after his 12-13 season.
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Past is in the past. Danault IMO has a better chance of being better than Eller and I think this season is better than Ellers lockout year.
I don't miss Eller for a second. I am happy with Danault and kudos to Bergevin for this trade.
That doesn't mean Therrien didn't mishandle him.

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04-08-2017, 04:00 AM
  #54
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One of the most annoying things people do here is invent projections than blame others when it's not true.

Apparently Eller was supposed to be a two-way 50-60 point C. Galchenyuk was supposed to be a franchise C, etc...

My god, we're so lucky to have all these great centers under our watch.

It's a tough league, these guys do not grow on trees. It's nice to be optimistic but blaming others because your projection was generous is pushing it.

I really liked Ben Maxwell in the past and I thought he'd be a quality NHLer. I was wrong, it's not the coaches fault. It's not the GMs fault. He just wasn't good enough.
That's not an argument. It's just an anecdote. You can point out to young guys not doing as well, changing coaches and doing better too. Sometimes even under good coaches. Seguin wasn't reaching his potention under Julien, he went to Dallas and blossomed. Neely with the Nucks, Chara with the Isles. I'm sure you can name some too.
So ya, some prospects just end up not being as good as projected. Others disappoint, change, and do much better. Some are projected as nothing, and end up as stars. Some disappoint, change teams, and still disappoint.

So please, tell me, why wouldn't it be possible for a player to have been stuck with a bad coach too long for him to then reach his potential after a change? Would you say that is impossible?

I agree, it's very possible Eller is simply who he became, but we also spent a lot of his developmental years using him as a checking center. It's not some surprise that he's become mostly a checking line center...
It's the same thing with Galchenyuk that I was arguing with you about for years. If you use Galchenyuk as a winger through his first few years here, then that's what he will become. You just refused to accept that and believed he would magically develop into a center if we moved him there 4-5 years into his career. Yes, you also said you didn't care, whether he's a winger or center, but everyone knew we needed a center, which is a more important and difficult position to fill, so put him there ASAP.
Nope. Instead we toyed around with DD-Plek, and today we are left with a 40pt checking center as the #1 guy and Galch is used as a depth winger. Great planning strategy. Actually, brilliant! Oh right, it has nothing to do with development of course. It's just who Galch is!
Come on man. Development matters. Actually, it is key.

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04-08-2017, 06:58 AM
  #55
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How's what happened 50 years ago relevant though ? Times change, everything surrounding hockey has actually. That was common and almost expected back then, players came from a completely different background. Why not compare Eller to a spartan or a reaver while we're at it. The guy was targetted by a guy who's known as a bully during years where he needed development.
Claiming a player has been mentally destroyed by a 21st century coach is a bit laughable, honestly.

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KK good to know pk and eller had the sametreatment as cube and dd. Weird that your perception is nothing like reality.
So Eller being completely mentally destroyed is a more concrete form of reality? Come on now. Disappointed. Frustrated. Underused. I'll buy any of those. But mentally destroyed? Mind-******? Are you really going to bat for this degree of wild hyperbole to prop up Lars Eller? Therrien was a lousy coach, but he wasn't the Marquis de Sade.

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04-08-2017, 07:05 AM
  #56
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Actually, I don't blame the player. I say I'm wrong instead of blaming everyone else for my own mistake.
Oh i thought when you said Maxwell "simply wasn't good enough" you were blaming him.

Because it was pretty obvious he was not gonna be an NHLer........except yo you.

He was not good enough to live up to your expectations. As Eler was not with others. Why these two did not live up to other peoples expectations is open to opinion.

Eler went in the first round, was traded for a hot goalie, had size, showed signs of being great (4 goal game) played on the EGG line that looked good for a space. Good defense. Currently playing 3rd line center for the Stanley Cup favorites. I can at least see where the high expectations come from.

Maxwell on the other hand? He just plain stunk.


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04-08-2017, 07:23 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Claiming a player has been mentally destroyed by a 21st century coach is a bit laughable, honestly.



So Eller being completely mentally destroyed is a more concrete form of reality? Come on now. Disappointed. Frustrated. Underused. I'll buy any of those. But mentally destroyed? Mind-******? Are you really going to bat for this degree of wild hyperbole to prop up Lars Eller? Therrien was a lousy coach, but he wasn't the Marquis de Sade.
Exactly. Eler is mentally fine on the top team in the league filling the role he was given quite nicely. Healthy as can be. Destroyed? Hardly.

Could Julien use him right now? ABSOLUTELY

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04-08-2017, 07:31 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That's not an argument. It's just an anecdote. You can point out to young guys not doing as well, changing coaches and doing better too. Sometimes even under good coaches. Seguin wasn't reaching his potention under Julien, he went to Dallas and blossomed. Neely with the Nucks, Chara with the Isles. I'm sure you can name some too.
So ya, some prospects just end up not being as good as projected. Others disappoint, change, and do much better. Some are projected as nothing, and end up as stars. Some disappoint, change teams, and still disappoint.

So please, tell me, why wouldn't it be possible for a player to have been stuck with a bad coach too long for him to then reach his potential after a change? Would you say that is impossible?

I agree, it's very possible Eller is simply who he became, but we also spent a lot of his developmental years using him as a checking center. It's not some surprise that he's become mostly a checking line center...
It's the same thing with Galchenyuk that I was arguing with you about for years. If you use Galchenyuk as a winger through his first few years here, then that's what he will become. You just refused to accept that and believed he would magically develop into a center if we moved him there 4-5 years into his career. Yes, you also said you didn't care, whether he's a winger or center, but everyone knew we needed a center, which is a more important and difficult position to fill, so put him there ASAP.
Nope. Instead we toyed around with DD-Plek, and today we are left with a 40pt checking center as the #1 guy and Galch is used as a depth winger. Great planning strategy. Actually, brilliant! Oh right, it has nothing to do with development of course. It's just who Galch is!
Come on man. Development matters. Actually, it is key.
Development is key.

and it no secret MB and MTs track record stinks in that department.

Nobody is raving around the league about "how do the Canadiens do it" Where do they find these guys' Another your star on the rise in Montreal"

Players have to take share of the burden for sure, but put it this way. Teenagers in June dont exactly increase their chances of success when their name is called by the Canadiens on draft day.

Claude and his new staff will change that over time. It is Juliens team now.


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04-08-2017, 08:10 AM
  #59
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Properly developed is a fallacy that keeps getting tossed around on here over and over. People will use that as an excuse when a player doesn't turn out as good as they expected. A coach cannot ruin a player for the most part, would happen very rarely, maybe 1 player a year in the league. Its all on the player, shouldn't matter how many games you play, who you play with or what position you play. Either you learn, adapt and get better or you don't. Take # 27 for example, 5 years in the league and he still doesn't have a clue, if you don't get it by 23 you never will, most of the best players in league history, such as Gretzky, had their best offensive years before age 24. Too easy to blame the coach when the player just doesn't get it.
If you do everything wrong, every ****ing steps of the way. You will be blamed for it and rightfully so.

They decided to take the most idiotic development approach with Galchenyuk and today we pay for it. If they had done their jobs properly and the player don't pan out then they wouldn't take the fall for it.

Maybe its 100% Galchenyuk's fault... Maybe. It just doesn't matter since the peoples in charge did an incredibly ****** job there will always be a "what if" in this case. Being in charge means you need to be accountable for things happening under your watch.

It impossible to tell what would have happened if Therrien wasn't around or if he was actually a good coach. All we know is how terribad he was, how he had no idea on how to handle #27 and how much effort he spent in keeping #51 relevant. At the end of the day Therrien will be blamed for all the stupid decisions he took.

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04-08-2017, 08:55 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by digmor crusher View Post
Properly developed is a fallacy that keeps getting tossed around on here over and over. People will use that as an excuse when a player doesn't turn out as good as they expected. A coach cannot ruin a player for the most part, would happen very rarely, maybe 1 player a year in the league. Its all on the player, shouldn't matter how many games you play, who you play with or what position you play. Either you learn, adapt and get better or you don't. Take # 27 for example, 5 years in the league and he still doesn't have a clue, if you don't get it by 23 you never will, most of the best players in league history, such as Gretzky, had their best offensive years before age 24. Too easy to blame the coach when the player just doesn't get it.
For sure.

But even the most level headed fans are starting to notice an issue in Montreal. Not exactly the best track record lately for "developing their own talent"

The last one I witnessed develop into a star was Subban....and current mgt couldnt stop whining about him, then traded him for a great player "developed" else where.

Pre MB and MT was not great but they did have Patches come up through Hamilton well, PK, Carey Price, Halak and a few others.

Since MB came in who is the best player on this team that was developed here...Gallagher? Chucky? Nate?

I can at least see why a lot of fans think its an issue.

I dont feel the need to excuse MGT at every turn.


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04-08-2017, 09:37 AM
  #61
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Bergevin's neglect of the AHL staff to get proper developmental coaches down there is going to be a huge black cloud that follows his tenure.

I'm not a big fan of Benoit Groulx but look at what he has done in Syracuse. It's a lot like when we had Guy Boucher on the farm. Players like Darche, Desharnais, Trotter, etc. would come up and play hard, smart and produce.

Groulx has Yanni ****ing Gourde looking like a better player than our first round picks on the farm, that is a huge concern.

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04-08-2017, 09:40 AM
  #62
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Bergevin's neglect of the AHL staff to get proper developmental coaches down there is going to be a huge black cloud that follows his tenure.

I'm not a big fan of Benoit Groulx but look at what he has done in Syracuse. It's a lot like when we had Guy Boucher on the farm. Players like Darche, Desharnais, Trotter, etc. would come up and play hard, smart and produce.

Groulx has Yanni ****ing Gourde looking like a better player than our first round picks on the farm, that is a huge concern.
Bergevin ****ed up this farm experience so bad.....that alone is a sign of sheer stupidity. And we should have been all over Gourde when needed. Just like we should ahve been all over Marchessault too. They just don't care about Q products. We're letting Hudon rot hoping he retires or something.....add a few guys here and there to add to the "idea" that we do care. Hey...we added Guillaume Asselin to the Caps....Q scouting is an incredible joke.

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04-08-2017, 10:39 AM
  #63
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Bergevin ****ed up this farm experience so bad.....that alone is a sign of sheer stupidity. And we should have been all over Gourde when needed. Just like we should ahve been all over Marchessault too. They just don't care about Q products. We're letting Hudon rot hoping he retires or something.....add a few guys here and there to add to the "idea" that we do care. Hey...we added Guillaume Asselin to the Caps....Q scouting is an incredible joke.
Which is terrible because habs have no monetary(no cap outside of players) to not have at least an adequate scouting staff and coaching staff for future development. At this point we have almost nothing that we didn't trade away that is from 2012 on playing for the habs that spent time in the AHL. Lehk is likely our best prospect and he never touched the AHL. Yes development matters, and it continues into the NHL for those first few critical years. Hard to change what has been hardwired into your system after 5 years of coaching.

Even so called Bergevin made players are being tossed out to dry, players this board want gone-Nate, Chuckie, and on many nights even Gallagher.


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04-08-2017, 10:47 AM
  #64
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Claiming a player has been mentally destroyed by a 21st century coach is a bit laughable, honestly.



So Eller being completely mentally destroyed is a more concrete form of reality? Come on now. Disappointed. Frustrated. Underused. I'll buy any of those. But mentally destroyed? Mind-******? Are you really going to bat for this degree of wild hyperbole to prop up Lars Eller? Therrien was a lousy coach, but he wasn't the Marquis de Sade.
Well for all intents even his supporters say he is an old school coach, and we already know about the yelling sessions. I hardly said he was a sadist, but he DID target Eller and Subban(something you neatly sidestepped in your reply) Is Eller mentally weak-maybe he is. But he HAD potential and IMO Therrein with his being Therrien is very good at destroying confidence-which is key in the NHL.

Why is it so many players have mentioned either not knowing what their role was, or about how they were AFRAID to make mistakes for fear of benching? Mistakes are how you get better in life and make more corrections than playing things simple. If you don't take risks or try things out how are you suppose to get better, if you are forced to limit your own skills and are playing with every castoff how are you expected to excell. Bourque who everyone knew wasn't playing great for us was even said to be helping out ellers game by some of you. Its quite entertaining to see the lengths you guys will go through to defend how bad of a coach Therrien was.

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04-08-2017, 10:51 AM
  #65
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Danault hasn't established anything. Sam Gagner put up as many points in mulitple seasons, does that mean he established he was a "top 6" center. This team needs better centres period. Danault shouldn't be in the top 6 and Julien doesn't have much of a choice right now.
Well thats what i said. We will see what happens next year. This year Danault is a top 6 C there is no denying that. But its one year and next year things can be different.

But saying he shouldnt be in the top 6 I disagree. As long as he keeps playing like he does and can also grow I see no problem with it.

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04-08-2017, 10:51 AM
  #66
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Bergevin ****ed up this farm experience so bad.....that alone is a sign of sheer stupidity. And we should have been all over Gourde when needed. Just like we should ahve been all over Marchessault too. They just don't care about Q products. We're letting Hudon rot hoping he retires or something.....add a few guys here and there to add to the "idea" that we do care. Hey...we added Guillaume Asselin to the Caps....Q scouting is an incredible joke.
To me it's clear the issue is with development. Our drafting can improve as well, when Bergevin came in, he took some responsibilities away from Timmins so he could focus on picks alone, he bolstered up the scouts team, and yet, there's very little to show for it.
For the life of me, I do not understand how a coach who's provided very little prospects from the AHL and has not made the POs for 4 years straight, not only gets to stick around for the 5th year but also finish it despite not making the POs again.
I just don't get it. What standard is Bergevin holding him up to? Quite unbelievable.

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04-08-2017, 10:53 AM
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Well thats what i said. We will see what happens next year. This year Danault is a top 6 C there is no denying that. But its one year and next year things can be different.

But saying he shouldnt be in the top 6 I disagree. As long as he keeps playing like he does and can also grow I see no problem with it.
You see no problem with Danault, a 40pt guy, be the top line center??? And you say we are cup contenders?..

Man, some of you are so tough to follow. You guys make no sense.

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04-08-2017, 10:54 AM
  #68
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He's had 5 years to find a good number 2 centre. Did not.
A lot less typing.
Agree. Does that take away from everything else?

Also he found Danault and AG. Untill injury AG was a fine 2C and Danault has been a 2C level this year.

Next year things can change. Happens to every team.

Leafs were complaining about bust Kadri and this year he has 30 goals. Maybe next year he goes back to bust territory.

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04-08-2017, 10:59 AM
  #69
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You see no problem with Danault, a 40pt guy, be the top line center??? And you say we are cup contenders?..

Man, some of you are so tough to follow. You guys make no sense.
Top 6 not 1 c.

And playing between Max and Radu its fine.

If Danault played the whole season on the 1st line and PP time i think he would have more tha 40 points.

Whats wrong with Danault by the way? What dont you like about his game? He can make plays good defensivly hard on puck. So whats wrong?

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04-08-2017, 11:01 AM
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To me it's clear the issue is with development. Our drafting can improve as well, when Bergevin came in, he took some responsibilities away from Timmins so he could focus on picks alone, he bolstered up the scouts team, and yet, there's very little to show for it.
For the life of me, I do not understand how a coach who's provided very little prospects from the AHL and has not made the POs for 4 years straight, not only gets to stick around for the 5th year but also finish it despite not making the POs again.
I just don't get it. What standard is Bergevin holding him up to? Quite unbelievable.
And you know that Bergevin, though everybody can change opinions, has already said that Lefebvre will be the coach in Laval. How crazy is that. From Bergevin himself...Lefebvre is doing a great job 'cause we've called up numerous players and bla-bla-bla....Insane.

https://www.nhl.com/fr/video/logo-du...412/c-48925003

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04-08-2017, 11:03 AM
  #71
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Top 6 not 1 c.

And playing between Max and Radu its fine.

If Danault played the whole season on the 1st line and PP time i think he would have more tha 40 points.

Whats wrong with Danault by the way? What dont you like about his game? He can make plays good defensivly hard on puck. So whats wrong?
Do you really haev to turn a "He's not a #1 C" into "what's wrong with Danault? Danault is FINE. But NOT as a #1C! Really difficult to understand?

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04-08-2017, 11:08 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And you know that Bergevin, though everybody can change opinions, has already said that Lefebvre will be the coach in Laval. How crazy is that. From Bergevin himself...Lefebvre is doing a great job 'cause we've called up numerous players and bla-bla-bla....Insane.

https://www.nhl.com/fr/video/logo-du...412/c-48925003
Oh...My...God.

I was totally expecting for us to start fresh with the move to Laval. I guess that should teach me to have expectation... at all.

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Old
04-08-2017, 11:12 AM
  #73
groovejuice
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Bergevin's misplaced loyalty to employees that have been obstacles to success is not doing this team any favours. There is absolutely no excuse for sacrificing winning for personal reasons. It's incompetent and unprofessional. It could very likely be the epitaph for his tenure as GM.

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Old
04-08-2017, 11:15 AM
  #74
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Top 6 not 1 c.

And playing between Max and Radu its fine.

If Danault played the whole season on the 1st line and PP time i think he would have more tha 40 points.

Whats wrong with Danault by the way? What dont you like about his game? He can make plays good defensivly hard on puck. So whats wrong?
Danault is fine, he's just not a top line center.
Him playing with Max and Radu is NOT fine. The hell are you talking about. Do you want to win a freaking Cup??
For the love of God man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And you know that Bergevin, though everybody can change opinions, has already said that Lefebvre will be the coach in Laval. How crazy is that. From Bergevin himself...Lefebvre is doing a great job 'cause we've called up numerous players and bla-bla-bla....Insane.

https://www.nhl.com/fr/video/logo-du...412/c-48925003
Well damn...I guess Bergevin cannot help himself. For every good move he makes he has to make a completely stupid one next to it.

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Old
04-08-2017, 11:26 AM
  #75
scrubadam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRun View Post
Oh...My...God.

I was totally expecting for us to start fresh with the move to Laval. I guess that should teach me to have expectation... at all.
Didnt he say the same thing about MT this year before firieng him?

I thought Sly would be gone by the time we move to laval to get some butts in the seats.

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