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Marc Bergevin - The Crystal Ball Edition

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Old
04-08-2017, 12:09 PM
  #76
Lshap
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Well for all intents even his supporters say he is an old school coach, and we already know about the yelling sessions. I hardly said he was a sadist, but he DID target Eller and Subban(something you neatly sidestepped in your reply) Is Eller mentally weak-maybe he is. But he HAD potential and IMO Therrein with his being Therrien is very good at destroying confidence-which is key in the NHL.

Why is it so many players have mentioned either not knowing what their role was, or about how they were AFRAID to make mistakes for fear of benching? Mistakes are how you get better in life and make more corrections than playing things simple. If you don't take risks or try things out how are you suppose to get better, if you are forced to limit your own skills and are playing with every castoff how are you expected to excell. Bourque who everyone knew wasn't playing great for us was even said to be helping out ellers game by some of you. Its quite entertaining to see the lengths you guys will go through to defend how bad of a coach Therrien was.
I seriously don't know how you interpreted my light criticism of Eller as a defence of Therrien's coaching. Unless you're speaking generally about other posters and opinions. Your comments about Therrien are accurate and I agree with them, but it still doesn't make him responsible for breaking Lars into a million pieces.

Yeah, Therrien did have it in for Eller, Subban, Beaulieu, Pateryn, Vanek, Galchenyuk, etc. So what? Every coach has their favourites and their whipping-boys. You can probably make a credible all-star whipping-boy team out of players who were targeted under one coach and flourished under another. I doubt Eller would be on it, however. He's a good 3rd-line C, but his performance will never match the potential some people overlay onto him. That's not his fault, nor is it Therrien's. It's the fault (not really a 'fault', but anyway) of fans who see more than what's really there.

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04-08-2017, 12:13 PM
  #77
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Claiming a player has been mentally destroyed by a 21st century coach is a bit laughable, honestly.



So Eller being completely mentally destroyed is a more concrete form of reality? Come on now. Disappointed. Frustrated. Underused. I'll buy any of those. But mentally destroyed? Mind-******? Are you really going to bat for this degree of wild hyperbole to prop up Lars Eller? Therrien was a lousy coach, but he wasn't the Marquis de Sade.
I think he's as bad as you'll get in this day and age. He's absolutely terrible for younger players.

One of his (very many) faults is that he has one tool only: the hammer. Not all players respond to this well. It didn't work for Mahovolich and it doesn't work for a lot of guys. Some players need the hammer sometimes but it should be used sparingly. When that's all you've got in your toolbox...

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04-08-2017, 01:00 PM
  #78
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Bergevin's neglect of the AHL staff to get proper developmental coaches down there is going to be a huge black cloud that follows his tenure.

I'm not a big fan of Benoit Groulx but look at what he has done in Syracuse. It's a lot like when we had Guy Boucher on the farm. Players like Darche, Desharnais, Trotter, etc. would come up and play hard, smart and produce.

Groulx has Yanni ****ing Gourde looking like a better player than our first round picks on the farm, that is a huge concern.
Subban mad a point of of thanking Guy Boucher when he was presented the Norris Trophy. I think he was great with young guys. We liked the team he coached here in Hamilton a lot.

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04-08-2017, 01:02 PM
  #79
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I think he's as bad as you'll get in this day and age. He's absolutely terrible for younger players.

One of his (very many) faults is that he has one tool only: the hammer. Not all players respond to this well. It didn't work for Mahovolich and it doesn't work for a lot of guys. Some players need the hammer sometimes but it should be used sparingly. When that's all you've got in your toolbox...
Therrien proved one thing............he is bottom of barrel coach to be hired when no other french coaches are available.

He won the lottery with MB .

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04-08-2017, 01:10 PM
  #80
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Therrien proved one thing............he is bottom of barrel coach to be hired when no other french coaches are available.

He won the lottery with MB .
Maybe you should have a look at his first three seasons after the lockout.... Not too shabby for a coach... And as, 75-80% of all NHL coaches, his "message" just die afterwards... They have a shelf time limit.

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04-08-2017, 02:07 PM
  #81
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I seriously don't know how you interpreted my light criticism of Eller as a defence of Therrien's coaching. Unless you're speaking generally about other posters and opinions. Your comments about Therrien are accurate and I agree with them, but it still doesn't make him responsible for breaking Lars into a million pieces.

Yeah, Therrien did have it in for Eller, Subban, Beaulieu, Pateryn, Vanek, Galchenyuk, etc. So what? Every coach has their favourites and their whipping-boys. You can probably make a credible all-star whipping-boy team out of players who were targeted under one coach and flourished under another. I doubt Eller would be on it, however. He's a good 3rd-line C, but his performance will never match the potential some people overlay onto him. That's not his fault, nor is it Therrien's. It's the fault (not really a 'fault', but anyway) of fans who see more than what's really there.
Not you specifically, but yes you are challenging that MT may have had any impact on how he developed. We are looking at Chuckie going right in the dumpster because of 5 years on the wing. Also as a result of very bad management and certainly one of the worst offenders of having favourites. Whipping boys are bad, favourites are bad, combine them and its terrible esp for center. I had no issue with Darche back in the day because he was just a winger with pleks(when he was decent)

But the way MT made the most illogical centers moves is beyond understanding. We don't need to go over this over and over, but when DD hasn't put up a point let alone a goal on the PP in what was it 20 games, maybe just maybe try someone else, hell mitchell will do. And when one of your guys is playing hot and makes a mistake, don't bench him because you don't like the guy, continue using him but talk with him about it, and not in the press.

Nate was getting 8-12 minutes at the start of last season despite how well he played with gonchar where we all thought he was 3rd D 20 minutes a night easily. But for some reason MT just didn't think nate was very good. Keep getting told you are terrible, tune into RDS after the game to have 5 guys nit pik your entire game while giving floaters a free pass(patches, pleks and DD) and you can see why it would be hard on that person. you don't have to agree but that is the perspective from some of us out of province. TSN, SN, CBC(ROC), ESPN- very different take on Therriens behaviour than within quebec.

*politics warning*
I am french heritage and it burns me up that I need to defend this stuff from anglo friends about Quebec and anglo vs franco language issues. BUT i have a limit on what I can defend when it comes to fair treatment of players.

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04-09-2017, 02:20 PM
  #82
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Well congrats to MB and his "Frankenhabs" for winning their division and picking up their 4th 100 point season under him. In the 5 years previous to MB they only managed that feat once.

This will be a huge playoffs for the habs. MB made the changes to make a difference in the post season.

Go Habs Go!

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Old
04-09-2017, 02:36 PM
  #83
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Well congrats to MB and his "Frankenhabs" for winning their division and picking up their 4th 100 point season under him. In the 5 years previous to MB they only managed that feat once.

This will be a huge playoffs for the habs. MB made the changes to make a difference in the post season.

Go Habs Go!
I'm glad he did well on his midterms, let's see what happens with his finals before we offer congratulations.

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04-09-2017, 02:41 PM
  #84
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I'm glad he did well on his midterms, let's see what happens with his finals before we offer congratulations.
Yup step 1 complete. Fulfill Molsons promise to season ticket holders and get the team back in the playoffs.

Step 2 is in progress.

Intersting enough I checked and since the last time the habs won the cup they have had 1 100 point season.

Since MB came on board 4.

Now we can argue loser point helps but I find it pretty interesting.

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04-09-2017, 02:43 PM
  #85
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I'm glad he did well on his midterms, let's see what happens with his finals before we offer congratulations.
This is possible...

I can hear the school boys chanting but we shouldn't have had to play the Rags in the first round.
Bad form.
Does anyone know if we are still transitioning or is this it?

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04-09-2017, 02:50 PM
  #86
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This is possible...

I can hear the school boys chanting but we shouldn't have had to play the Rags in the first round.
Bad form.
Does anyone know if we are still transitioning or is this it?
It was always something to be announced after the facts. If we don't do well it was a "test run" 100% and that's why we didn't commit to anything at the TDL.

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04-09-2017, 02:51 PM
  #87
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This is possible...

I can hear the school boys chanting but we shouldn't have had to play the Rags in the first round.
Bad form.
Does anyone know if we are still transitioning or is this it?
It is stupid that we play the rags! We won the division and we play another 100 point team.

the 6/7 team will play each other and the 2/3 team will play each other. This whole playoff format is STUPID and makes no sense. There is really no reason to do well in the standings or to win your division.

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04-09-2017, 02:57 PM
  #88
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It is stupid that we play the rags! We won the division and we play another 100 point team.

the 6/7 team will play each other and the 2/3 team will play each other. This whole playoff format is STUPID and makes no sense. There is really no reason to do well in the standings or to win your division.
We are 100% guarantee to not face one of the Top3 team (the real one) in the East until the 3rd round. The Metro teams have legitimate ground to complain here, we don't.

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04-09-2017, 03:03 PM
  #89
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The Habs are capable of defeating the Rangers. Of course, it would be easier if they had greater scoring depth. Bergevin knows it, but it's long past the trading deadline. I look forward to next season.

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04-09-2017, 03:03 PM
  #90
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Therrien proved one thing............he is bottom of barrel coach to be hired when no other french coaches are available.

He won the lottery with MB .
The team won in spite of Therrien not because of him. His schtick is based on intimidation and alienation and as has been said many times before, he seems to have a one-size-fits-all approach with young players, you either sink or swim. It's like he's borrowed his coaching methods from a crusty ole coach from the 60s and steadfastly refused to adapt. Coaches like this can only survive with a totally complicit GM -- a GM who ultimately waited far too long before taking out the axe.

Regardless, just the fact that Therrien and his Easter bunny Desharnais are gone, is the gift that most of us were waiting for at the start of this season.

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04-09-2017, 03:04 PM
  #91
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We are 100% guarantee to not face one of the Top3 team (the real one) in the East until the 3rd round. The Metro teams have legitimate ground to complain here, we don't.
I disagree on the principal that the habs won the division. Whats the point of having division and division winners. And I would say the same if Ottawa or Boston won the division.

Its a stupid format. 6/7 should not be playing each other nor should 2/3. Ottawa is the team that benefits the most. They get home ice in round 1 and play the 2nd weakest team in the East. Even though they will be the team with the 6th most points and finished 2nd in the division. And since there isn't cross over they will get the worst of the best if they play habs in round 2 instead of having to play WASH/PENS.

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04-09-2017, 03:05 PM
  #92
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Else than toronto, the Rags are the worse team of the playoff.

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04-09-2017, 03:13 PM
  #93
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I disagree on the principal that the habs won the division. Whats the point of having division and division winners. And I would say the same if Ottawa or Boston won the division.

Its a stupid format. 6/7 should not be playing each other nor should 2/3. Ottawa is the team that benefits the most. They get home ice in round 1 and play the 2nd weakest team in the East. Even though they will be the team with the 6th most points and finished 2nd in the division. And since there isn't cross over they will get the worst of the best if they play habs in round 2 instead of having to play WASH/PENS.
Saving on travel cost.

We are getting an advantage through geography, of all thing. And you find a way to complain.

We probably miss the POs entirely if we had played in any other division, thanks to sir grind deez guys and his enabler.

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04-09-2017, 03:18 PM
  #94
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It is stupid that we play the rags! We won the division and we play another 100 point team.

the 6/7 team will play each other and the 2/3 team will play each other. This whole playoff format is STUPID and makes no sense. There is really no reason to do well in the standings or to win your division.
In a 1-8 to 4-5 playoff system we still would have played the Rangers. I don't mind. They're a good team but eminently beatable.

The teams that got screwed are Pitt and Columbus.

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04-09-2017, 03:22 PM
  #95
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Saving on travel cost.

We are getting an advantage through geography, of all thing. And you find a way to complain.

We probably miss the POs entirely if we had played in any other division, thanks to sir grind deez guys and his enabler.
We have more points than all but 6/7 teams in the league, we make the playoffs regardless.

I am not complaining for the habs sake, the format screws everyone. Look at Wash. They have the most points in the league and their reward is if they get to the 2nd round they face the 2nd/3rd best team in the East!

The 6th place team gets an easier path then WASH. They face the 7th team that has the same amount of points as the 8th team and then would play the 4th team. Ottawa essentially has a better path an ECF than Washington how does that make any sense at all!

It should be division winners 1/2 and then reseed the rest based on points.

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04-09-2017, 03:26 PM
  #96
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In a 1-8 to 4-5 playoff system we still would have played the Rangers. I don't mind. They're a good team but eminently beatable.

The teams that got screwed are Pitt and Columbus.
Winning the division should count for something.

And I agree Pitt/CBJ are getting screwed. Wash as well.

If all the higher seeds win then Wash faces Pens in round 2 instead of Ottawa in round 2.

Essentially the bottom 3 teams have an easier path then the top 3 teams. I don't see how that makes any sense at all.

Its the NHL with another half measure. They want to create rivalries in the playoffs so they come up with this whole WC idea but only thought it half way through so now you have 6/7 teams playing weaker teams than division winners and conference winners throughout the playoffs.

I am shocked the NHL didn't find a way to screw the top teams out of Home Ice as well when they created this format. It actually almost happened. If NYR didn't falter at the end they could of had more points than the habs but would of lost their home ice advantage.

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04-09-2017, 03:29 PM
  #97
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We have more points than all but 6/7 teams in the league, we make the playoffs regardless.

I am not complaining for the habs sake, the format screws everyone. Look at Wash. They have the most points in the league and their reward is if they get to the 2nd round they face the 2nd/3rd best team in the East!

The 6th place team gets an easier path then WASH. They face the 7th team that has the same amount of points as the 8th team and then would play the 4th team. Ottawa essentially has a better path an ECF than Washington how does that make any sense at all!

It should be division winners 1/2 and then reseed the rest based on points.
We don't get the same amount of point if we are playing elsewhere since we don't get to face the same teams at the same rate.

Being in the Atlantic allowed us to play for .500 for 2 months without being threatened by anyone. Prolly don't make it anywhere else.

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04-09-2017, 03:38 PM
  #98
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We don't get the same amount of point if we are playing elsewhere since we don't get to face the same teams at the same rate.

Being in the Atlantic allowed us to play for .500 for 2 months without being threatened by anyone. Prolly don't make it anywhere else.
Look thats a different debate. Who knows maybe we play better than those other teams and beat up on them just as much as we did the Atlantic. Too many variables to say forsure.

At the end of the day we sit 7th in the league. We will finish anywhere from 6th to 8th. Over 2/3rd of the rest of the league had fewer points than the habs I think they would be fine wherever they play.

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04-09-2017, 04:43 PM
  #99
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Yup step 1 complete. Fulfill Molsons promise to season ticket holders and get the team back in the playoffs.

Step 2 is in progress.

Intersting enough I checked and since the last time the habs won the cup they have had 1 100 point season.

Since MB came on board 4.

Now we can argue loser point helps but I find it pretty interesting.
It's funny that in no way has it been proven that regular season success correlates into playoff success.

Also you take numbers with different methods of calculations and you equate their values.

since MB took over if the NHL awarded 2 points of OT win, 0 points for OT loss, and 1 point if you go to shootouts.

Habs 2013: 63 pts, would have been 57 pts
Habs 13-14: 100 pts, would have been 89 pts
Habs 14-15: 110 pts, would have been 98 pts
Habs 15-16: 82 pts, would have been 74 pts
Habs 16-17: 103 pts, would have been 93 pts

So since 93, the Habs have 0 100 point seasons the way the 100 point season was calculated in 93

And before he took over the Habs went to the ECF, lost to the Stanley Cup champions and one year they went belly up.

Looks to me like MB inherited quite a strong team, but hasn't actually went any further than his predecessor.

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04-09-2017, 05:01 PM
  #100
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It's funny that in no way has it been proven that regular season success correlates into playoff success.

Also you take numbers with different methods of calculations and you equate their values.

since MB took over if the NHL awarded 2 points of OT win, 0 points for OT loss, and 1 point if you go to shootouts.

Habs 2013: 63 pts, would have been 57 pts
Habs 13-14: 100 pts, would have been 89 pts
Habs 14-15: 110 pts, would have been 98 pts
Habs 15-16: 82 pts, would have been 74 pts
Habs 16-17: 103 pts, would have been 93 pts

So since 93, the Habs have 0 100 point seasons the way the 100 point season was calculated in 93

And before he took over the Habs went to the ECF, lost to the Stanley Cup champions and one year they went belly up.

Looks to me like MB inherited quite a strong team, but hasn't actually went any further than his predecessor.
How about something simpler. Shootout was introduced in 05-06 season. So from 05-06 till 10-11 7 seasons, habs had 1 100 point season in 07/08 which was 104 points.

Since MB took over 11-12 the habs have had 4 100 point seasons their best being 110 points.

Much simpler way to look at it then making up different point standards that don't or never existed.

And before MB took over the habs missed the playoffs finishing 28th, bounced from 1st round finishing 14th, ECF as a 8th place team that was 19th in the league, year before they finished 14th in the league. they had one good year in 07/08 where they finished 3rd and it has been downhill since then till MB took over.

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